Israeli protests

hmmm

Does anyone have a handle on the reasons behind the protests in Israel? From the (little) I've read, protesters seem to want lower taxes yet more government spending. Is this a giant middle class whinge or is there something deeper happening?

TiGeR KiNgS

the rise in the cost of living

The Saint

Increased cost of living, particularly regarding house and rental prices, with no corresponding increase in income. They are bloody right too. Housing and rental prices are extortionate as well as most other things.

Although it seems that anyone who has a beef with the government has also tagged along too.

irishh_bob

The Saint wrote: »

Increased cost of living, particularly regarding house and rental prices, with no corresponding increase in income. They are bloody right too. Housing and rental prices are extortionate as well as most other things.

Although it seems that anyone who has a beef with the government has also tagged along too.

thats what happens when a fifth of new york and quater of central russia comes to live in a small country , real estate prices go up

The Saint

irishh_bob wrote: »

thats what happens when a fifth of new york and quater of central russia comes to live in a small country , real estate prices go up

It's not so much an issue of people immigrating as this would have been more of an issue in the 1990s with the large swathes of Russian immigration. The main issue seems to be many people and investment companies taking on investment properties due to the low interest rates. This then leaves a shortage for other buyers thus increasing real estate prices. The ministry of finance increased the tax rate on investment properties at the end of last year from 1.5% to 2%. Furthermore, there was a 3% decrease in the second quarter of this year.

One other issue particularly vexing for Israelis, particularly in Jerusalem, are wealthy American Jews buying property in the city while only visiting during the holidays, leaving the property vacant for the rest of the year. I recall last year or so there being talk about the municipality taking actions to to reduce this but I don't think anything was actually done.

Nodin

It would appear that going for 'lebensraum' outside ones borders is far from a catch all solution to social problems.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

It would appear that going for 'lebensraum' outside ones borders is far from a catch all solution to social problems.

Did you intend to be so offensive or was it a freudian slip ?:D

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Did you intend to be so offensive or was it a freudian slip ?:D

Why would such a remark be a "freudian slip" on my part? You do realise that Israel is colonising - at no small expense - outside its borders.?

RandolphEsq

Nodin wrote: »

It would appear that going for 'lebensraum' outside ones borders is far from a catch all solution to social problems.

That's a rather sensationalist and insulting way of describing the foreign policy of Israel.

Nodin

RandolphEsq wrote: »

That's a rather sensationalist and insulting way of describing the foreign policy of Israel.

Its colonising outside its borders and annexing land. Theres a bit too much dodging around the reality of that.

The money spent on this and defending its colonists are a drain on the states resources. Government grants are significantly higher in the OT to provide incentive to migrate there.

Teclo

hmmm wrote: »

Does anyone have a handle on the reasons behind the protests in Israel? From the (little) I've read, protesters seem to want lower taxes yet more government spending. Is this a giant middle class whinge or is there something deeper happening?

The Irish and the Israelis, separated at birth.

anymore

RandolphEsq wrote: »

That's a rather sensationalist and insulting way of describing the foreign policy of Israel.

I think perhaps Nodin has forgotten that the Third Reich was assisted in thier pursuit of ' Lebensraum' by the Mufti of Jerusalem who recruited the Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS .

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

I think perhaps Nodin has forgotten that the Third Reich was assisted in thier pursuit of ' Lebensraum' by the Mufti of Jerusalem who recruited the Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS .

Other than "whataboutery", how does that connect to the topic at hand?

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Other than "whataboutery", how does that connect to the topic at hand?

You introduced the topic of ' lebensraum' so dont complain if any posters make further comment upon it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

Alopex

what do they expect the government to do? haven't heard of cost of living protests before

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

You introduced the topic of ' lebensraum' so dont complain if any posters make further comment upon it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

No, I used the phrase to describe. Previous incidents are rather irrelevant.

Why are you trying to derail the thread?

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

No, I used the phrase to describe. Previous incidents are rather irrelevant.

They are not irrelevant and your being incredibly disingenuous in saying that. You deliberately used the word lebensraum to draw a comparison between the Nazis and the Israelis which is just as odius as your attempt to compare the Israelis to the Serbs. If you are trying to be purposefully odius at least be upfront about it rather than trying to weasel out of it.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

They are (...............)at least be upfront about it rather than trying to weasel out of it.

The term 'living space' is considerably less grim than 'slow drip ethnic cleansing' but has, admittedly, a past associated with the nazis. However, semantics aside, what is going does constitute expansionism, colonisation, and the removal of the local population to make way for incoming settlers/colonists. Its something that is expensive to the Israeli state, both on a material and moral level.

What would you call its policy, by the way?

Alopex

Nodin wrote: »

No, I used the phrase to describe. Previous incidents are rather irrelevant.

Why are you trying to derail the thread?

Ah here lad you're smart enough to know nazi terminology is gonna cause confrontation and derailment on an Israel thread.

riffmongous

Good article on the protests here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14344515

Its an interesting movement, especially since it doesn't seem to be organised.

Nodin

Alopex wrote: »

Ah here lad you're smart enough to know nazi terminology is gonna cause confrontation and derailment on an Israel thread.

To be honest, there seems to be a campaign of derailment going on at the moment. My point though, is that a large scale colonisation program and the need to persuade migration to the occupied territories costs Israel a great deal of money - far more than would be the case if it confined its efforts to ordinary intra-border security like a normal state. As a result its a factor in any discussion of Israels economics.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

The term 'living space' is considerably less grim than 'slow drip ethnic cleansing' but has, admittedly, a past associated with the nazis. However, semantics aside, what is going does constitute expansionism, colonisation, and the removal of the local population to make way for incoming settlers/colonists. Its something that is expensive to the Israeli state, both on a material and moral level.

What would you call its policy, by the way?

Probably colonialism like most people would call it. Using the word lebensraum is not just "semantics" and its not just associated with the nazis, its a core nazi concept and trying to pretend thats not what you were at is a bit much.

And in any case you seem to be trying to take this thread down the usual anti-israeli path when this thread is about why there are social protests in Israel, why are the working class and middle class are protesting and settlements have little to do with it. The cost of living in Israel is high and the costs of renting/buying property are especially high and people have had enough. Lots of property is being bought by rich jews living in other countries and this is causing a knock-on increase in prices for Israelis.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Probably colonialism like most people would call it. Using the word lebensraum is not just "semantics" and its not just associated with the nazis, its a core nazi concept and trying to pretend thats not what you were at is a bit much.

And in any case you seem to be trying to take this thread down the usual anti-israeli path when this thread is about why there are social protests in Israel, why are the working class and middle class are protesting and settlements have little to do with it. The cost of living in Israel is high and the costs of renting/buying property are especially high and people have had enough. Lots of property is being bought by rich jews living in other countries and this is causing a knock-on increase in prices for Israelis.

....and part of the reason for that high cost of living is what I described above.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

To be honest, there seems to be a campaign of derailment going on at the moment. My point though, is that a large scale colonisation program and the need to persuade migration to the occupied territories costs Israel a great deal of money - far more than would be the case if it confined its efforts to ordinary intra-border security like a normal state. As a result its a factor in any discussion of Israels economics.

You are the one that is engaging in thread derailment by trying to force it down your anti-settlement avenue (there is another thread for that remember). It is a cost of living problem, the amount that Israel spends on this or that isn't an issue as they don't have a deficit issue like many other economies.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

....and part of the reason for that high cost of living is what I described above.

No it isn't. Stop trying to derail this thread.

Alopex

Nodin wrote: »

To be honest, there seems to be a campaign of derailment going on at the moment. My point though, is that a large scale colonisation program and the need to persuade migration to the occupied territories costs Israel a great deal of money - far more than would be the case if it confined its efforts to ordinary intra-border security like a normal state. As a result its a factor in any discussion of Israels economics.

That's a relevant point and I think you are right. Perhaps you are unwittingly contributing to the campaign of derailment by using unnecessary nazi terminology in relation to Israel. To be honest using nazi terminology has high potential to derail no matter where you use it.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

No it isn't. ..........

So its all cost free....? the grants are "free"...?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/25/west-bank-settlers

The Saint

Nodin wrote: »

No, I used the phrase to describe. Previous incidents are rather irrelevant.

Why are you trying to derail the thread?

In fairness, it was a pretty clear case of flamebaiting. There really wasn't much hope of the thread staying on topic after that.

Settlements really aren't the issue in this, and if they are it is very peripheral. Right wing settler groups are actually quite wary of what they see as the true intentions of these left wing social protesters.

Settler groups have sought to take advantage of the protests by stating that more homes should be built in the territories to make up for the shortfall in housing. However, the two groups are not going to be natural allies as it seems that the protests have a largely centrist/leftist slant who are not going to be ideologically kindred with the settler movement. Furthermore, it protests now seems to have expanded beyond the housing issue to encompass more and more issues that people have with the government.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If you are trying to be purposefully odius at least be upfront about it rather than trying to weasel out of it.

Why don't you say pretty please?

Alopex

The Saint wrote: »

In fairness, it was a pretty clear case of flamebaiting. There really wasn't much hope of the thread staying on topic after that.

Settlements really aren't the issue in this, and if they are it is very peripheral. Right wing settler groups are actually quite wary of what they see as the true intentions of these left wing social protesters.

Settler groups have sought to take advantage of the protests by stating that more homes should be built in the territories to make up for the shortfall in housing. However, the two groups are not going to be natural allies as it seems that the protests have a largely centrist/leftist slant who are not going to be ideologically kindred with the settler movement. Furthermore, it protests now seems to have expanded beyond the housing issue to encompass more and more issues that people have with the government.

none of that contradicts the cost of expensive settlements in the West bank contributing to the high cost of living in Israel

Nodin

All I'm saying is that its a factor....thats all. I will depart the thread now.

The Saint

Alopex wrote: »

none of that contradicts the cost of expensive settlements in the West bank contributing to the high cost of living in Israel

Of course it doesn't. It is clear that the settlements are a burden on the rest of the state. The OECD even published data on it.

The inclusion of the settlements and east Jerusalem adds about 4% to Israel's gross domestic product, but reduces the GDP per capita by a significant rate of 6.5% a year. "Without east Jerusalem, the Golan Heights and the settlement, the GDP per capita within the Green Line would have been 6.5% higher. The post-1967 territories pushed Israel's GDP per capita down," the OECD rules.

In the budget year of 2007, the Israeli government spent some NIS 12.5 billion (NIS 14.5 billion in 2011 prices) on the West Bank settlements, Golan Heights and the annexed part of east Jerusalem – a 10% addition to the State Budget. In addition, NIS 5.5 billion were invested that year in the settlements and east Jerusalem, NIS 2.4 billion of them on housing construction.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4108350,00.html

Alopex

The Saint wrote: »

Of course it doesn't. It is clear that the settlements are a burden on the rest of the state. The OECD even published data on it.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4108350,00.html

I think that was nodin's point.

Hayte

I got the following from 2 Israelis in respect of the "tent city" protests. Broadly speaking, and paraphrasing 10 to 15 pages of arguments, these are the core issues:

1. Politics in Israel has been strongly skewed in favour of addressing externalities - mainly foreign relations with its Arab neighbors. Foreign policy has traditionally been a huge factor in determining who gets elected, so domestic policy issues tend to get marginalized in the face of a united, external threat. In the Gaza thread I talked about Israel's demographic Mizraheem problem and that is just another one of Israel's long term domestic issues which tend to get superceded by foreign policy and drowned out by it come election time.

2. The tent city protest has its roots in the cottage cheese revolt and are an extension of recent housing demonstrations. There is also the issue of Israel's concentration of wealth amongst a small number of very large corporations giving them easy access to credit and a political shield behind which they have resistance to public and press scrutiny. Indirect taxation (i.e. VAT) is very high and land development tenders often go to large companies like these because they can readily finance development projects as well as buy political influence more easily.

3. Some 93% of land in Israel is owned by the ILA (Israeli Land Authority), which tends to be released to the highest bidder and has a long and convoluted building/construction approval process (on average 3 to 5 years). Israel has a number of urban planning problems like this which have allowed alot of luxury apartments, hotels etc. to be approved for construction but comparatively few tenders designated for affordable housing. Whoever wins the tender is generally not interested in building affordable houses anyway because theres not alot of money in it. There are some similarities to Ireland's out of control construction sector and planning approval during the Celtic Tiger which has left the country strewn with poorly built, overpriced housing that few people can afford. The ones that can afford them want to shop around for something better because they aren't well built, hence all the ghost estates.

4. At the same time the Construction and Housing Ministry budget has been cut by 79% since 2002 so mortgage aid has dried up. This has an impact on social demographics so you start to see more neighborhoods that are homogeneously wealthy and alot of people who can't get on the property ladder at all.

Traditional left/right politics don't really factor into this protest because of the way Israeli politics is. The tent city protesters are diverse in the sense that 87% of Israelis support the protest which includes settlers and israeli arabs. Nonetheless, for the sake of politics, nobody is mentioning the Palestine question because it is a political hot potato and it is too easy to smear the protest and de-legitimize it if there is a Palestinian link. I would be one of those people that believe Israel's domestic problems are strongly correlated with its foreign policy problems but that idea doesn't get much traction within Israel and even if there was, it would probably divide that 87% majority into weaker majorities, minorities that squabble over foreign policy and not on the domestic problem of affordable homes.

The Saint

Alopex wrote: »

I think that was nodin's point.

I gathered that. However, it is not a core reason cited by the protesters and I think the issue of the settlements being a drain on the state could have been made a little less provocatively to avoid the obvious derailment that ensued.

charlemont

anymore wrote: »

Did you intend to be so offensive or was it a freudian slip ?:D

Maybe he intented to speak about what is true and is happening on the ground today, Right now, East Jerusalem ring a bell.

Hayte

The settlements are one of the few places where you can get affordable housing (correct me if I'm wrong but I think it is generously subsidized). Settlement activity has been frozen however and there are very serious foreign policy, legal and ethical questions to address when it comes to building in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

charlemont

Teclo wrote: »

The Irish and the Israelis, separated at birth.

Yes there is a link there, Your on the right track, Not everyone who left Egypt went to Palestine/Isreal.