where are those cuts Enda?

caseyann

TAXPAYERS have forked out almost €500,000 to fly the new Government's ministers around the globe, the Herald can reveal.

Despite Taoiseach Enda Kenny's pre-election pledge to limit the use of the Government jets, ministers have clocked up tens of thousands of airmiles since February -- all from the public purse.

http://www.herald.ie/news/as-ministers-run-up-euro500k-jet-bill-where-are-those-cuts-enda-2865982.html

I couldnt copy and paste any more of it,as it made me feel sick.:(
Enjoy the read.
How can we get these shower of thieves out?
Clearly they are following suit of their predecessors.:rolleyes:
Irish need to stand up to these wolves in sheep's clothing.
We pay they spend,we pay again and they spend.

Manach

sssh, nothing to see here. Our masters know best, they were promoting Ireland abroad or some such .

Einhard

What the Herald doesn't reveal, because it would establish that their story is a complete non-story, is that the government have used the government jets far less, and at far less expense, than the previous administrations. Indeed, the article hints at this reality here:

However, ministers have yet to embark on the kind of flights organised by previous governments to cities such as Dubai, Kuala Lumpur, Darwin, Bahrain and Dili.

So, there have been cuts caseyann. It's just that the Herald aren't too interested in the facts or the reality, but rather in stoking the outrage of easily duped readers. And you fell for it.

Lockstep

Running a government that didn't go abroad would be literally impossible.

Unless you can show that they've gone on unnecessary flights or racked up expenses this is a non-issue.

caseyann

Lockstep wrote: »

Running a government that didn't go abroad would be literally impossible.

Unless you can show that they've gone on unnecessary flights or racked up expenses this is a non-issue.

Who said that traveling wasnt necessary?
If you had bothered to read the article, is why they have spent 500 grand on them since February,and consider themselves the privilege of traveling on private jets rather than business class.As that is all they are is business men.They dont own that money they use the tax payer does.So while others struggle they live on in the life of grandeur which does not come with being a public servant.
So you tell me why they need private jets?
They are no one get on a normal plane like everyone else?

caseyann

Einhard wrote: »

What the Herald doesn't reveal, because it would establish that their story is a complete non-story, is that the government have used the government jets far less, and at far less expense, than the previous administrations. Indeed, the article hints at this reality here:


So, there have been cuts caseyann. It's just that the Herald aren't too interested in the facts or the reality, but rather in stoking the outrage of easily duped readers. And you fell for it.

And? Who cares what they didnt do its what they are doing.Thats what got us into this mess in first place.Turning a blind eye.While they still live in luxury airing and lording (Putting a 200 grand stop on the wages how nice of them also ) :rolleyes:over the country and dipping into the money while the tax payer pays for them to do so.I dont think Irish ever voted them to go on private jets in the first place.
So please stop trying to cover over it.
I fell for anything,but you sure as hell did by accepting them spending 500 grand since February,by them using oh but we didnt go there or here.
I see they are doing as well as ff with the blinkers on the Irish.Hopefully not all will.

Zombrex

500k is a drop in the ocean in terms of the debt of a State, and to be honest the message it would sent to have the Taoiseach flying around the world on a commercial airliner would be terrible.

People forget that these trips are representing the country and are normally related to generating business for the economy.

I'm all for keeping spending in check and keeping these trips to a minimum, but the idea that we have no need for a government jet they should all just pop over to Terminal 2 is frankly ridiculous. We aren't fecking Somalia.

paul71

Just read the herald article, is it just me or would it not be reasonable to expect a journalist to give details of trips concerned. It mentions Enda Kennys Patricks day trip to the states as being one of the high cost items, to my recollection Enda Kenny had a meeting with the German and French Premiers within a day or two of that trip to discuss the bailout package. Given the timing and the importance of those meetings it would seem a reasonable use of the jet.

Also not mentioned is if the cost is the fixed cost of keeping the aircraft or solely the variable cost of the trips. I also recall that government jet was used to evacuate Irish citizens from Libya, not detailed in the article if this cost is included or not.

At best the article can be described as weak tabloid journalism.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

500k is a drop in the ocean in terms of the debt of a State, and to be honest the message it would sent to have the Taoiseach flying around the world on a commercial airliner would be terrible.

People forget that these trips are representing the country and are normally related to generating business for the economy.

I'm all for keeping spending in check and keeping these trips to a minimum, but the idea that we have no need for a government jet they should all just pop over to Terminal 2 is frankly ridiculous. We aren't fecking Somalia.

You just dont get it do you
So long as you accept and think it is acceptable for people who are merely business men to travel via private jets to another country to endorse the countries economy and build relations for trade etc..
It is not plausible when Irish tax payer is paying for it and bailing out the banks while they get a wage of 200 grand.If they wish to travel via high priced and not needed transport then they should pay for it out of their generous wages(Do they meet these other ministers in the jet :rolleyes:.But guess what they dont care about you or Irish people and so long as you accept this,it will always be the norm in Ireland and the debt is never ever going to be paid off.

Ah yeah he has his own to.

dsmythy

caseyann wrote: »

You just dont get it do you
So long as you accept and think it is acceptable for people who are merely business men to travel via private jets to another country to endorse the countries economy and build relations for trade etc..
It is not plausible when Irish tax payer is paying for it and bailing out the banks while they get a wage of 200 grand.If they wish to travel via high priced and not needed transport then they should pay for it out of their generous wages(Do they meet these other ministers in the jet :rolleyes:.But guess what they dont care about you or Irish people and so long as you accept this,it will always be the norm in Ireland and the debt is never ever going to be paid off.

Sorry fellow EU ministers our own is delayed on a flight out of ...... because some drunk held up the plane. How much do you think these trips bring back into the economy?

Looks like you should have taken this tripe to After Hours instead, Caseyann.

doomed

This is the sort of nonsensical reportage that shows how third rate and lazy a lot of our media are. Concentrate on things that are totally insignificant, get Joe Public riled up over a jet of a poxy €10k watch that Fingers got instead of the billions lost or even, god forbid, some ideas for getting us out of the mess.

I blame liveline. I'm angry Joe.

syklops

Ah yeah he has his own to.

While I can't identify the exact type. the plane in the picture is a turbo-prop, not a jet. Jet > Turbo-prop.

As other posters have said, this is typical tabloid journalism. Lots of broad generalizations and no specifics.

Dannyboy83

Is €500,000 really bad when you consider how many of them (and how frequently) they would be flying to Brussels etc?

Not defending or criticizing the expense, as I don't actually know!

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

You just dont get it do you
So long as you accept and think it is acceptable for people who are merely business men to travel via private jets to another country to endorse the countries economy and build relations for trade etc..

What are you talking about? Business men can do what ever the heck they like with their own money. The article was about government ministers.

caseyann wrote: »

It is not plausible when Irish tax payer is paying for it and bailing out the banks while they get a wage of 200 grand.If they wish to travel via high priced and not needed transport then they should pay for it out of their generous wages

It is ridiculous that the Taoiseach of this country would pay his own plane fare while on government business. What planet are you living on? Do you want Ireland to be the laughing stock of the international community?

Yes we were about to start this EU summit on economic policy and growth but unfortunately the Minister from Ireland got held up by Ryanair, so now we have to wait for him :rolleyes:

You seem to think Ireland can function without a working government. Yeah we tried that for the last 10 years and look where that got us :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

However, ministers have yet to embark on the kind of flights organised by previous governments to cities such as Dubai, Kuala Lumpur, Darwin, Bahrain and Dili.

"Have yet to" ???

How about "haven't and won't" ?

The implied journalistic bias is astonishing!

Lockstep

caseyann wrote: »

Who said that traveling wasnt necessary?
If you had bothered to read the article, is why they have spent 500 grand on them since February,and consider themselves the privilege of traveling on private jets rather than business class.As that is all they are is business men.They dont own that money they use the tax payer does.So while others struggle they live on in the life of grandeur which does not come with being a public servant.
So you tell me why they need private jets?
They are no one get on a normal plane like everyone else?

No, they are not businessmen, They are politicians.
€500k is a drop in the ocean of our public finances, especially given the lack of context in that article.
Politicians need to go abroad as part of their jobs. That's such a basic point that I doubt there's any issue with this.
You're right they don't own that money. However, in the same way that employers cover the expenses incurred by their employees in doing business (such as trips abroad), so do we, the government's employers, cover this.

I don't see a problem with a government having a private jet. Given the nature of their job and the importance of diplomacy and international relations a government relying on regular planes is fairly bizarre.

Unless you can show that they're making utterly unnecessary junkets or are massively exploiting the expenses system while heading away this is a fuss over nothing.


Clearly there needs to be reform of public spending but this is a non-issue.

Einhard

caseyann wrote: »

And? Who cares what they didnt do its what they are doing...

Eh, the title of your post, and of the article you quoted was "where are those cuts Enda?". There has been a significant decrease in the use of the government jet, and the expense associated with its use. I answered your question, and that of the article. You made a point/asked a question. I answered. Quite simple really. I can't be expected to respond to points which you haven't yet raised.

thebman

Having known they cut the expenses in relation to foreign trips before entering the thread, it has met my expectations on the quality of discussion going on it.

This is a known issue, the costs have come down and there are plenty of things FG are actually doing wrong like their councilors getting caught by revenue but not yet being removed from the party.

the groutch

just sell one of the jets, they don't need two

syklops

the groutch wrote: »

just sell one of the jets, they don't need two

Yeah they do. They would only need one if they all travelled together, and even then I am not sure if you could fit the entire cabinet on a Learjet 45. However they dont all travel together. The Taoiseach might be on a state visit to Washington, while at the same time Michael Noonan may be needed in Brussels.

Also, what happens when one breaks down or needs maintenance?

Taoiseach: "I wont be able to attend the IMF talks because the jet is having its fuel lines replaced". That would look really good on the worlds stage :rolleyes:

Since talking over in Social Protection, Joan Burton has saved 350 Million on social welfare fraud alone. And yet people on here are squabbling over 500k.

djpbarry

caseyann wrote: »

So long as you accept and think it is acceptable for people who are merely business men to travel via private jets to another country to endorse the countries economy and build relations for trade etc..

Can you demonstrate that travelling business class on commercial flights would have been cheaper and just as effective?

caseyann wrote: »

It is not plausible when Irish tax payer is paying for it and bailing out the banks while they get a wage of 200 grand.If they wish to travel via high priced and not needed transport then they should pay for it out of their generous wages

If work-related expenses were deducted from public servants’ salaries, then nobody would want to be a public servant. Either that or we’d end up with a bunch of public servants who never wanted to do anything.

caseyann wrote: »

Do they meet these other ministers in the jet...

No, they obviously use them to stage coke & hooker parties.

caseyann

djpbarry wrote: »

Can you demonstrate that travelling business class on commercial flights would have been cheaper and just as effective?
If work-related expenses were deducted from public servants’ salaries, then nobody would want to be a public servant. Either that or we’d end up with a bunch of public servants who never wanted to do anything.
No, they obviously use them to stage coke & hooker parties.

Whats effective about it?
Less fuel used less cost now thats effective.
Well that means then they shouldnt be in said job as they have no passion for it if its all about the money.So we are royally screwed if they cant do a good job for less the pay and luxuries.

The last line is just pure crap and not even comment worthy.

Frogeye

company i work for ( 100+ people) spent 95K on travel to the middle east alone last year not to mind the US, Asia and Europe, i don't think Enda is doing too bad with 500K for a government running a country of 4+ million.

I think some people don't have a clue about the realities of international business travel or what it entails.

Coillte_Bhoy

caseyann wrote: »

Who said that traveling wasnt necessary?
If you had bothered to read the article, is why they have spent 500 grand on them since February,and consider themselves the privilege of traveling on private jets rather than business class.As that is all they are is business men.They dont own that money they use the tax payer does.So while others struggle they live on in the life of grandeur which does not come with being a public servant.
So you tell me why they need private jets?
They are no one get on a normal plane like everyone else?

I cannot read that. Is simple English beyond you?

Foghladh

Frogeye wrote: »

company i work for ( 100+ people) spent 95K on travel to the middle east alone last year not to mind the US, Asia and Europe, i don't think Enda is doing too bad with 500K for a government running a country of 4+ million.

I think some people don't have a clue about the realities of international business travel or what it entails.

But then I don't suppose that your company invited the media to accompany them on the LUAS to demonstrate the example that they were showing to the average Joes. The current government campaigned with the theme of cutting costs so I don't think it's improper to have them judged on that theme. From what I gathered from the article, it's claimed that just over 200k of that 500k originally mentioned, arose out of 17 flights by the government jets. 51k came about from one flight to the US alone. Now I'll stress that I do see the importance of maintaining a bit of dignity in the Nation, and I wouldn't want to see the Taoiseach queuing up in the priority lane for Ryanair at Stansted, but if you make an issue of cutting costs you're going to incur scrutiny.

ArmaniJeanss

Caseyann,
How do you propose Enda Kenny or Michael Noonan gets to an unplanned emergency meeting in 36 hours time in Brussels, Berlin, Helsinki, Athens or Riga?

How do you guarantee there will be a suitable flight? How do you guarantee there will be enough seats available for him and his advisors? If he needs to take 15kg+ of reading material on board as hand luggage what happens?

On the grounds that massively important things will be discussed and we need them at the top of their game, would you prefer him and his advisors
a) to travel directly at the opportune time in the quickest possible way and in the most comfort, with an opportunity to talk to each other or
b) to travel at opposite ends of a scheduled flight, that may arrive 5 hours earlier than necessary, that may entail a change in London, that may not even be landing at the most suitable airport at the destination or
c) will you just continue to ignore all the relevant points people put to you?

Coillte_Bhoy

Foghladh wrote: »

But then I don't suppose that your company invited the media to accompany them on the LUAS to demonstrate the example that they were showing to the average Joes. The current government campaigned with the theme of cutting costs so I don't think it's improper to have them judged on that theme. From what I gathered from the article, it's claimed that just over 200k of that 500k originally mentioned, arose out of 17 flights by the government jets. 51k came about from one flight to the US alone. Now I'll stress that I do see the importance of maintaining a bit of dignity in the Nation, and I wouldn't want to see the Taoiseach queuing up in the priority lane for Ryanair at Stansted, but if you make an issue of cutting costs you're going to incur scrutiny.

But how much was spent in the same period last year? Maybe there have been cuts but of course that wouldnt bother The Herald.

Foghladh

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

But how much was spent in the same period last year? Maybe there have been cuts but of course that wouldnt bother The Herald.

There may well have been cuts and I'll admit I have no idea if this years travel is less than last years. Given the scrutiny I'd imagine it has been. I was really just making the point that if you campaign on the basis of something you can expect to be questioned on it too. Having said that even I find the thoughts of a fifty grand return trip to the US a little off.

the groutch

what I don't get is why the flights are even necessary?
with the technology we have, these "meetings" don't need to be done face-to-face at all.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0914/greece.html

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou is to discuss Greece's debt crisis with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy today.
The three leaders will discuss the ongoing uncertainty in a tele-conference call this afternoon.

The Greeks have it right, do it via video conference, rather than wasting money we don't have to fly half way round the world.

The reality is that most of these trips are nothing more than an excuse for a few opportunistic photos, and a chance to continue living the high life while the rest of us toil.
Nothing has really changed and FG's nickname of FF Lite is very apt here.

InigoMontoya

Foghladh wrote: »

But then I don't suppose that your company invited the media to accompany them on the LUAS to demonstrate the example that they were showing to the average Joes. The current government campaigned with the theme of cutting costs so I don't think it's improper to have them judged on that theme. From what I gathered from the article, it's claimed that just over 200k of that 500k originally mentioned, arose out of 17 flights by the government jets. 51k came about from one flight to the US alone. Now I'll stress that I do see the importance of maintaining a bit of dignity in the Nation, and I wouldn't want to see the Taoiseach queuing up in the priority lane for Ryanair at Stansted, but if you make an issue of cutting costs you're going to incur scrutiny.

Certainly not! How dare he waste our money on extravagances like priority boarding? Worse than Haughey!

Coillte_Bhoy

the groutch wrote: »

what I don't get is why the flights are even necessary?
with the technology we have, these "meetings" don't need to be done face-to-face at all.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0914/greece.html

The Greeks have it right, do it via video conference, rather than wasting money we don't have to fly half way round the world.

The reality is that most of these trips are nothing more than an excuse for a few opportunistic photos, and a chance to continue living the high life while the rest of us toil.
Nothing has really changed and FG's nickname of FF Lite is very apt here.

The Greeks do it right? :rolleyes:

Which "meeting" exactly are not necessary? No, some meetings are bets done face to face. I'm sure Govt ministers regularly have conference call meetings. So i ask again which "meetings" aren't necessary and please try not to be so vague this time.

Coillte_Bhoy

Foghladh wrote: »

There may well have been cuts and I'll admit I have no idea if this years travel is less than last years. Given the scrutiny I'd imagine it has been. I was really just making the point that if you campaign on the basis of something you can expect to be questioned on it too. Having said that even I find the thoughts of a fifty grand return trip to the US a little off.

But this is exactly point. Of course the Govt should be questioned, but none of us know whether there have been cuts or not. lashing out at the Govt on the basis of sloppy journalism in the rag that is the herald is a bit extreme imo.

Doirtybirdy

More than half the money cost of the government jet mentioned in the sensational journalism quoted,goes back to the government in taxes.

djpbarry

caseyann wrote: »

Whats effective about it?
Less fuel used less cost now thats effective.

So now you’re saying politicians don’t need to travel?

caseyann wrote: »

Well that means then they shouldnt be in said job as they have no passion for it if its all about the money.

As opposed to everyone else in the country (or at least the overwhelming majority)?

the groutch wrote: »

what I don't get is why the flights are even necessary?
with the technology we have, these "meetings" don't need to be done face-to-face at all.

I doubt Enda hops on a plane every single time he needs to consult with someone. I’m sure the telephone gets plenty of use.

Fulton Crown

caseyann wrote: »

Whats effective about it?
Less fuel used less cost now thats effective.
Well that means then they shouldnt be in said job as they have no passion for it if its all about the money.So we are royally screwed if they cant do a good job for less the pay and luxuries.

The last line is just pure crap and not even comment worthy.

Trim your wick missus and less of the personals please.

To be honest you are talking pure crap.....as a previous poster said 500k is a drop in the ocean.....

Get real will you ..a modern Govt needs efficient transport and there have been significant cut backs in this area.

At least they show the courage to go after the welfare cheats and the black economy scammers...

syklops

Originally Posted by the groutch View Post
what I don't get is why the flights are even necessary?
with the technology we have, these "meetings" don't need to be done face-to-face at all.

I work for a global corporation with an office in almost every country, my team alone has people on 3 continents, so I use 'modern technology' every day to communicate, and I have to say, we arent there yet. I have visual meetings a couple of times a week, and there are delays, and misunderstandings, amongst people because it still is more closely related to a telephone conference call than a real meeting.

I go to the US from time to time, and we accomplish more in a day, than we normally do in a week. And then we go for some beer and accomplish more as well.

Unfortunately, nothing still beats the face to face meeting,

Now speaking of cuts, Joan Burton has found 350 million in savings cutting back on Social Welfare fraud, and is hoping to find another 650 million, bringing us to a 1 Billion euro in savings. So the travel expenses the OP is complaining about is 0.05 of that saving. Thats what I mean when I say half a million is a drop in the ocean, because when running government, your often talking in Billions.