Irish in the Irish education system/An Ghaeilge sa chóras oideachais Éireannach

AlexderFranke

A chara,

ba mhaith liom mo thuairimí ó amuigh a thabhairt ar chúrsaí Gaeilge sa chóras oideachais in Eirinn tar éis mo thuras is déanaí go hÉireann.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar ábhar éigeantach ag gach Éireannach ar scoil ar feadh 12 bliain ach amháin iad seo ar fhreastail ar scoil le tréimhse fhada go leor thar lear agus cúpla cúis eile. As an gcúis sin, bheifí ag súil le Gaeilge réasúnta a bheith ag beagnach gach Éireannach agus gur féidir Gaeilge a labhairt le hÉireannaí beagnach gach áit sa tír. Ach thug mé faoi déara nach dtuigeann cuid daoine tada. Cad a fhoghlaimíonn siad seo sna ceachtanna Gaeilge?! Is droch-chúis gháire ata ann! D´fhéadfaí an-chuid airgid ar son an oideachais a chur chuig an tine chomh maith!

Ná tuigigí go mícheart mé! Tá mé ar son de mhúineadh éigeantach na dteangacha dúchasacha sna tíortha go deo. Fiú amháin, níor thugainn aon saoirseacht ó cheachtanna Gaeilge ach amháin daltaí de chláir malairte. Chuireann daltaí nua a thagann ó thar lear i gceachtanna Gaeilge do thosaitheoirí. Már tá fírinne san abairt mar atá "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam!". Ach caithfear aire a thabhairt go díreach go bhfaightear torthaí réasúnta don airgead caite agus nach bhfuil daoine thar lear ag magadh chomh amaideach is atá an scéal.




Hello,

I would like to give my notions from outside on matters of Irish in the education system in Ireland after my last journey to Ireland

I know that every Irish person has Irish as a mandatory subject at school during 12 years except for those who have attended school abroad for a long enough period and a few other reasons. For this reason, one would expect that nearly every Irish person has reasonable Irish and that one can speak Irish to Irish persons nearly everywhere in the country. However, I have noticed that some persons do not understand anything. What do these people learn in the Irish lessons? It is a bad joke! One could also put much money for the sake of education to the fire!

Do not understand me false! I am very in favour of teaching the indigenous languages in the countries. I would even not give any exemption from Irish lessons exept for pupils of exchange programs. I would place new students coming from abroad into beginners´ lessons. For, there is truth in the saying "Country without language, country without soul!". But one has to pay attention that reasonable results are got for the money spent and that people abroad do not make fun about how ridiculous this matter is.

Go n-éirí libh!

Alex

partyatmygaff

This is the first time I've met someone with better Irish than English



As to what you actually said, it's been said a thousand times before but I still agree with you. Considering the amount of money the government puts in to teaching and preserving Irish the end result is shockingly bad value for money.

AlexderFranke

Dárbh fhéidir Gaeilge a labhairt in Éirinn beagnach gach aon áit sa tír, déarfainn, gurbh eo é airgead caite go maith ar son ceachtanna Gaeilge. Ach le torthaí bochta mar sin, is cur amú airgid de chuid mhaith atá ann! Agus chonaic mé uaireanta in Éirinn gur féidir torthaí réasúnta a bhaint as ceachtanna Gaeilge taobh amuigh den Ghaelscolaíocht.


If it were possible to speak Irish in Ireland nearly everywhere in the country, I would say that this was well spent money for the sake of Irish lessons. But with that poor results, this is for a good part waste of money. And I have sometimes seen in Ireland that it is possible to get reasonable results from Irish lessons outside of Gaelschooling.

aramush

I know many people who get an exemption from Irish just because they don't feel like doing it and no other reason. Its a disgrace, you'd wonder who grants these exemptions and on what grounds.. laziness?

deise go deo

AlexderFranke wrote: »

A chara,

ba mhaith liom mo thuairimí ó amuigh a thabhairt ar chúrsaí Gaeilge sa chóras oideachais in Eirinn tar éis mo thuras is déanaí go hÉireann.

Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar ábhar éigeantach ag gach Éireannach ar scoil ar feadh 12 bliain ach amháin iad seo ar fhreastail ar scoil le tréimhse fhada go leor thar lear agus cúpla cúis eile. As an gcúis sin, bheifí ag súil le Gaeilge réasúnta a bheith ag beagnach gach Éireannach agus gur féidir Gaeilge a labhairt le hÉireannaí beagnach gach áit sa tír. Ach thug mé faoi déara nach dtuigeann cuid daoine tada. Cad a fhoghlaimíonn siad seo sna ceachtanna Gaeilge?! Is droch-chúis gháire ata ann! D´fhéadfaí an-chuid airgid ar son an oideachais a chur chuig an tine chomh maith!

Ná tuigigí go mícheart mé! Tá mé ar son de mhúineadh éigeantach na dteangacha dúchasacha sna tíortha go deo. Fiú amháin, níor thugainn aon saoirseacht ó cheachtanna Gaeilge ach amháin daltaí de chláir malairte. Chuireann daltaí nua a thagann ó thar lear i gceachtanna Gaeilge do thosaitheoirí. Már tá fírinne san abairt mar atá "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam!". Ach caithfear aire a thabhairt go díreach go bhfaightear torthaí réasúnta don airgead caite agus nach bhfuil daoine thar lear ag magadh chomh amaideach is atá an scéal.




Hello,

I would like to give my notions from outside on matters of Irish in the education system in Ireland after my last journey to Ireland

I know that every Irish person has Irish as a mandatory subject at school during 12 years except for those who have attended school abroad for a long enough period and a few other reasons. For this reason, one would expect that nearly every Irish person has reasonable Irish and that one can speak Irish to Irish persons nearly everywhere in the country. However, I have noticed that some persons do not understand anything. What do these people learn in the Irish lessons? It is a bad joke! One could also put much money for the sake of education to the fire!

Do not understand me false! I am very in favour of teaching the indigenous languages in the countries. I would even not give any exemption from Irish lessons exept for pupils of exchange programs. I would place new students coming from abroad into beginners´ lessons. For, there is truth in the saying "Country without language, country without soul!". But one has to pay attention that reasonable results are got for the money spent and that people abroad do not make fun about how ridiculous this matter is.

Go n-éirí libh!

Alex

Alex, A Chara.


Much of what you say is true, but I would have one point to make, It is wrong to assume that teaching Irish for twelve years should result in the widespread ability to speak Irish.

In total, the average student who goes through the Irish education system in English medium school's receives 1200 hours of contact time with the language.

According to the canadian Government, Who are in many respects the leaders in this feild of research, that ammount of contact would be slightly less than the ammount needed for what they term a Basic Level of ability.

This level is an understanding of the basics of the language, things like counting, days of the week, basic information about yourself and your cuircumstances. It also means that should someone go on to learn the language in later life they will be much better prepared to do so, and will learn it much faster than someone starting from scratch.

This is very similar to the level of ability that most Irish people have when it comes to Irish.
I agree whole hartedly that in terms of value for money, the amount invested in teaching Irish, and the results achieved leave a lot to be desired, and I have no doubt that changes to the curriculum could lead to a better result for the investment, but no matter how the curriculum is changed, or how the funding is targeted in the current system, bringing the level of ability to speak Irish up to competent conversationsal standard is not possible with the ammount of contact time students have with the language.

I dont think increasing the ammount of class time students have for Irish is a practical solution, but getting students involved in using the language as part of extre curricular activities would be a way to increass overall contact time with the language in a cost effectie way.

Stalin and rugby

I disagree, it shouldn't be a compulsory subject. On a purely economical scale it is useless. If you want to be patriotic and learn the Language that's fine, but why should the rest of the country's students be forced to study a Language they don't want to?

Nobody in Ireland speaks it for a reason, there's no reason to speak it It's dead and whether that's a bad thing or not is another arguable topic

randylonghorn

partyatmygaff wrote: »

This is the first time I've met someone with better Irish than English

I had a maths lecturer once whose first language was Greek, his second Irish (he was married to a native speaker, and lived in the Gaeltacht AFAIR) and his third English.

He was lecturing us through English, but when he got stuck he would occasionally revert to Irish and even now and again to Greek!

Luckily it *was* maths, even at that we ended up pretty confused sometimes!

Random_Person

There's 2 distinct problems with the Irish course at the moment.

The first is that it's forced upon students. You must study Irish unless you get an exemption due to a learning disability. With other lanuages you get to make a choice but with Irish it's obligatory from day one. It's well known that if something is forced upon somebody then they will resent it slightly. This is problem number one.

The second is the course in general. It has so much on Irish Stories and Poetry. No other language course that I'm aware of (apart from English) has these elements. What benefit will this have to the language being kept alive? None at all. It would be more beneficial to scrap that part of the course and focus more on how to speak it and practical use.

The Irish Course needs to be split into 2 different subjects a compulsary Irish Language Subject teaching the language and how to speak it and another subject with just Poetry/Stories. I think that would improve the course drastically.

These are the problems with the Irish course that need to be fixed.

the_big_shmoke

the irish course is depresing!! and of absolutely no use to you in life!

irish is not the day to day language of the country, english is. therefore it shouldn't be taught through the same methods as english, it should be taught similarly to other secondary such as german, french etc. students shouldn't hav to learn off responses to 50 year old sceals that don't apply to modern times. they should be TAUGHT THE LANGUAGE!!

I hav finishd my leavin dis year and i can honestly say like so many others that can hardly speak a word of the language, in fact i resent it. after maybe 2 years i was better at french than irish

the course has to be changed radically or else they should make it un-manditory!!
phew....

Niles

Random_Person wrote: »

There's 2 distinct problems with the Irish course at the moment.

The first is that it's forced upon students. You must study Irish unless you get an exemption due to a learning disability. With other lanuages you get to make a choice but with Irish it's obligatory from day one. It's well known that if something is forced upon somebody then they will resent it slightly. This is problem number one.

The second is the course in general. It has so much on Irish Stories and Poetry. No other language course that I'm aware of (apart from English) has these elements. What benefit will this have to the language being kept alive? None at all. It would be more beneficial to scrap that part of the course and focus more on how to speak it and practical use.

The Irish Course needs to be split into 2 different subjects a compulsary Irish Language Subject teaching the language and how to speak it and another subject with just Poetry/Stories. I think that would improve the course drastically.

These are the problems with the Irish course that need to be fixed.

Some good points there. I think that Irish should remain mandatory on some level, what you suggest (a mandatory language module) seems like a good idea. Completely agree on Irish literature issue. Indeed, I was talking to my primary principal on this very subject a while back, he maintained that at times the stories on the course over complicate the subject. And this is coming from a man who has taught the subject since the 60s.

The current system gives many a negative experience of the language, which does it no favours in terms of its survival. It may well be to its detriment. When people say "they don't like Irish" I wonder do they mean the subject or the language itself. I suspect if it was taught better their views would be different.

Personally I think the whole subject needs to be completely rebuilt from primary school up. When you start learning French or whatever in 1st year of secondary there are a lot of English translations in the text books, when I started Irish in primary I seem to recall the main text books being completely "as Gaeilge", right down to the "do not photocopy" notice at the start of the book! It was like the writers assumed that pupils would have some knowledge of the language going into school!

My belief is that if it was taught more like French/German/whatever at primary level this would prepare students better, maybe so much that you could get away with having minimal translations in secondary level text books. The spoken language module seems a good idea, students should be encouraged to appreciate the language for what it is, to enjoy speaking it. Maybe even keep it like PE, and have the language subject mandatory but not an exam subject, with Irish Literature available as an option subject for the Leaving Cert.

But whatever happens the way it is currently taught needs to be drastically overhauled for the good of the language.

AlexderFranke

Bhuel, cuirtear ar phaistí a fhoghlaim in ábhair eile freisin. Ach ní fiú go ginearálta cúrsaí na scoláireachta agus maidir le daoine fásta na hoibre chomh maith a bheith mí-theatneamhach go hiomlán. Níor cheart gur fuath le páistí an scoil agus le daoine fásta an obair.

Is léir gur gá an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh ar nós teangacha eile toisc nach bhfoghlaimíonn páistí ach beágan acu neart Gaeilge ó dhúchas. Is léir freisin nach bhfuil aon chiall béim a chur san fhilíocht nó sa tsean-litríocht seachas na daltaí a chur in aithne leis sin. Is dóigh liom go múineann cuid múinteoirí go maith do na daltaí an teanga a labhairt sa saol laethúil toisc go bhfuil cuid Éireannach go maith in ann comhrá a dhéanamh gan trácht ar Gael-dhaltaí.

Ní raibh ach timpeall 500 ceacht scoile an Bhéarla agus 150 ceacht scoile na Fraincise agam ar scoil. Agus bhí mé líofa as Béarla agus fós in ann comhrá a dhéanamh as Fraincis faoi ghach scéal le neart cuidithe. Feictear dom go luann an Rialtas Canaideach luachanna ró-ard.


Well, children are forced to learn in other subjects, too. But it is no use generally spoken schooling and, referring to adults work, too, to be totally unpleasant. Children should not hate school and adults work.

It is clear that it is necassary to teach Irish like other languages because children do not learn some Irish from birth but few of them. It is also clear that there is no sense to emphase on poetry and old literature beside to let them know about this. I think that some teachers well teach the pupils to speak the language in the daily life because some Irish persons can well hold a conversation without considering the Gael-pupils.

I did not have but about 500 school lessons in English and 150 schools lessons in French at school. And I was fluent in English and still able to do a conversation in French about everything with some help.

sdiff

We have a language, that language is English. It is very convenient as it is spoken in the majority of the developed world. Irish is dead and even if it was our first language it would create an extra nuissance in having to learn English.
I'm quite happy with English. Here's hoping they get rid of Irish as mandatory in the next few years. Pity I was born too soon because it's going to happen sooner or later, no question about it.

FloatingVoter

Irish is a dead language. There is nobody left alive who can only speak Irish nor has there been for quite some time. We have bred generations of Irishmen and women who can speak English and no other useful language. By all means teach the language, but leave it as an optional extra.
The concept of "teaching" Irish to modern schoolkids is as daft as expecting Australian kids to speak an Aboriginal dialect.

Niles

Irish isn't a dead language though. Yola would be an example of a dead language. I maintain we should give it a chance in a different subject format, keeping it mandatory on some level (not the literature aspect though), before we decide to scrap it altogether.

prendizzle

I love Irish, just going into college and had no problems with the way it is taught in schools. If people spent less time complaining and more time using Irish then this wouldn't be an issue. There are always opportunities for people to better themselves in Irish- Irish colleges, Irish debating, Irish youth clubs srl... After my 14 years of primary and secondary education, I can honestly say that I'm fluent in the language.

A bit of pride and effort to uphold our historical language goes a long way!

Hopefully I won't get too many abusive comments about why Irish is a waste of time..... I know I'm in the minority, but I just thought I'd voice my opinion!

LordSutch

We could have been having this debate anytime in the last seventy/eighty years!

From my memory alone this topic has been raised time & time again since the late 70s, and its always the same issues with the same problems & with the same solutions - but nothing ever happens > Irish school children still go to school & get "taught" the same mandatory Irish for their whole school life, they then leave school at leaving Cert with little or no Irish to speak of, and this has been the same pattern since mandatory Irish was introduced into our schools eight decades ago.

At this point it seems like this cycle will be hard to break, every new generation promise to make Irish less hostile & more friendly to pupils (but they don't), every generation say that they will make spoken Irish part of the leaving curriculum, (but they don't). The cycle & the system is incredibly hard to break, so hard in fact that even the Taoiseach of the day 'Enda Kenny' has abandoned plans to 'sort out' how Irish is taught in our schools > such is the power of the intransigent 'Irish lobby' who would rather maintain the status quo, than face up to the farce :cool:

Expect another thread on this same topic in ten years time, then again in twenty years time, then again in . . . . . . .

sdiff

prendizzle wrote: »

I love Irish, just going into college and had no problems with the way it is taught in schools. If people spent less time complaining and more time using Irish then this wouldn't be an issue. There are always opportunities for people to better themselves in Irish- Irish colleges, Irish debating, Irish youth clubs srl... After my 14 years of primary and secondary education, I can honestly say that I'm fluent in the language.

A bit of pride and effort to uphold our historical language goes a long way!

Hopefully I won't get too many abusive comments about why Irish is a waste of time..... I know I'm in the minority, but I just thought I'd voice my opinion!

Thing is I have no interest in learning Irish. A language is a means of communication. No point in ressurecting one when we have the most widely spoken one in the western world.

crazy cabbage

just finished my leaving and cant speak a word of irish. have very little german and cant spell for my life. have no interest in languges. am much more interested in maths and science type subjects.

personaly i think that it should be cumpulasary up until junior cert and then optional. this would allow people to experence the languge and to see if they would like to learn it. for me i have wasted the last cuple of years in irish class when i could have being doing another subject that i would use and would be helpfull in my 3ed level cource (whould have loved to have done chemistary or applied maths but had no room on timetable)

by all means if someone wants to keep it on that is fair enough and classes whould be smaller so grades would improve.
just please dont say that im unpatriotic becouse i dont want to learn the irish languge.
that is just simple not the case.
hate when people say that.:mad:

FloatingVoter

Niles wrote: »

Irish isn't a dead language though. Yola would be an example of a dead language. I maintain we should give it a chance in a different subject format, keeping it mandatory on some level (not the literature aspect though), before we decide to scrap it altogether.

Why then is Latin considered a dead language ? Both Irish and Latin are spoken by poeple who wish to learn these languages. However nobody exclusively speaks Latin any more than others do Irish.
When you produce the native Irish speaker who is unable to speak English I will concede the point.
The last native Irish speakers died out at the start of the last century. RIP.

Niles

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Why then is Latin considered a dead language ? Both Irish and Latin are spoken by poeple who wish to learn these languages. However nobody exclusively speaks Latin any more than others do Irish.
When you produce the native Irish speaker who is unable to speak English I will concede the point.

But that isn't quite the criteria used to classify a language as "dead".

The Cambridge dictionary defines a dead language as one "which is no longer spoken by anyone as their main language". It doesn't preclude the speaker having a secondary language. Irish is still spoken as a primary language my many Galetacht residents. Therefore it is not a "dead language".

FloatingVoter wrote: »

The last native Irish speakers died out at the start of the last century. RIP.

There are still native Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht areas (I'm not saying that everyone in those areas is necessarily, but a good proportion would be). Indeed, there are people who speak better Gaelic than English.

sdiff

Niles wrote: »

But that isn't quite the criteria used to classify a language as "dead".

The Cambridge dictionary defines a dead language as one "which is no longer spoken by anyone as their main language". It doesn't preclude the speaker having a secondary language. Irish is still spoken as a primary language my many Galetacht residents. Therefore it is not a "dead language".



There are still native Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht areas (I'm not saying that everyone in those areas is necessarily, but a good proportion would be). Indeed, there are people who speak better Gaelic than English.

If it were a species of animal it would be extremely endangered.

FloatingVoter

I've been on holidays to the Aran Islands myself. By "native Irish speakers" I meant people who can only communicate through Irish. They are not there. I don't mean to insult the language by calling it "dead". To do that is to say Latin is irrelevant. Both these languages have their uses but are certainly not as important as they used to be.
To make children learn the language is ill-judged and inflicts a resentment towards it. Children need to know how to count past 10, they need to know how to read a letter. They do not need to know the life and times of Peig Sayers or whatever has replaced her.
Mathematics - compulsory
English - compulsory
Irish - on the menu for sure, but not an essential.

dlofnep

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I've been on holidays to the Aran Islands myself. By "native Irish speakers" I meant people who can only communicate through Irish.

That's not what the definition of a native speaker is. If it were, the hundreds of languages around the world including Welsh would be dead. The word you are looking for is 'monoglot'. And just because there are no monoglot Irish speakers does not imply the language is dead.

Basically, your logic is silly.

Niles

FloatingVoter wrote: »

To make children learn the language is ill-judged and inflicts a resentment towards it.

We do need to remove the resentment towards, which is why I think that remodelling the subject to be more accessible and enjoyable would be a good idea.

FloatingVoter wrote: »

They do not need to know the life and times of Peig Sayers or whatever has replaced her.

I'm in agreement with you on this. That's why I think that it would be a good idea to have a seperate mandatory "spoken language" course (perhaps with no exam, like PE, to keep the pressure off and have more emphasis on enjoying the language as part of our heritage, etc...), and an optional "Irish literature" course as an exam subject.

FloatingVoter

dlofnep wrote: »

That's not what the definition of a native speaker is. If it were, the hundreds of languages around the world including Welsh would be dead. The word you are looking for is 'monoglot'. And just because there are no monoglot Irish speakers does not imply the language is dead.

Basically, your logic is silly.

Thanks for supplying the word. Yes, Welsh is also as dead as Latin or Irish. It exists as a lanuguage but there are no Welsh monoglots. The term "dead" is overused and I'll plead guilty. Ancient Egyptian is truly dead, as nobody is sure how to pronounce the words even though we can read the heiroglyphs. I'm not here to insult the Irish language, just to say that it is over-emphasised and should not be compulsory. It is a relic that has no modern everyday / anyday usage.
If you're reduced to calling my logic "silly" with no backup to that claim, we're done here.

Rachel123

prendizzle wrote: »

I love Irish, just going into college and had no problems with the way it is taught in schools. If people spent less time complaining and more time using Irish then this wouldn't be an issue. There are always opportunities for people to better themselves in Irish- Irish colleges, Irish debating, Irish youth clubs srl... After my 14 years of primary and secondary education, I can honestly say that I'm fluent in the language.

A bit of pride and effort to uphold our historical language goes a long way!

Hopefully I won't get too many abusive comments about why Irish is a waste of time..... I know I'm in the minority, but I just thought I'd voice my opinion!

You are not alone, Irish is my favourite subject and always has been! I don't go to a gaelscoil and being in sixth year now, I am proud to say I can speak the language fluently. I love it and can't wait to go on and teach it after college

dlofnep

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Thanks for supplying the word. Yes, Welsh is also as dead as Latin or Irish. It exists as a lanuguage but there are no Welsh monoglots. The term "dead" is overused and I'll plead guilty. Ancient Egyptian is truly dead, as nobody is sure how to pronounce the words even though we can read the heiroglyphs. I'm not here to insult the Irish language, just to say that it is over-emphasised and should not be compulsory. It is a relic that has no modern everyday / anyday usage.
If you're reduced to calling my logic "silly" with no backup to that claim, we're done here.

Your logic is silly, because you are making the asinine assertion that any language that does not have monoglot speakers is dead. You fail to recognise the the majority of the world's population is bilingual. That certainly does make those languages spoken dead either.

Basically - drop the emotive nonsense, and discuss the topic in a rational manner. When you incorrectly use the word 'dead' to describe any language that does not have monoglot speakers, you are destroying any chance at having a reasoned discussion.

As for it not having a modern everyday usage - that's just nonsense. I use the language all the time.

prendizzle

Rachel123 wrote: »

You are not alone, Irish is my favourite subject and always has been! I don't go to a gaelscoil and being in sixth year now, I am proud to say I can speak the language fluently. I love it and can't wait to go on and teach it after college

You are a legend. Genuinely, your comment made me smile! Starting Law and Irish in UCC soon enough, can't wait!

Also, I know an entire family who speak Irish exclusively. The parents and grandparents do not speak English. So now.

Fair enough if you've no interest in Irish, can't see why it's being taught in schools or don't wanna study it, just don't drag it down for everyone else. Beo go deo!

Agree with the person who says that this argument is basically timeless. Let's just all spend our time more creatively shall we? Teaching Irish better in primary schools would be my main suggestion...

FloatingVoter

dlofnep wrote: »

Your logic is silly, because you are making the asinine assertion that any language that does not have monoglot speakers is dead. You fail to recognise the the majority of the world's population is bilingual. That certainly does make those languages spoken dead either.

Basically - drop the emotive nonsense, and discuss the topic in a rational manner. When you incorrectly use the word 'dead' to describe any language that does not have monoglot speakers, you are destroying any chance at having a reasoned discussion.

As for it not having a modern everyday usage - that's just nonsense. I use the language all the time.

This is about whether Irish should be mandatory as a LC subject. If you choose to speak Urdu every day, that too is your right. How useful would speaking Irish be in a job interview situation in London, Tokyo or Cork ?
There is a small department in the Irish civil service where it is a necessary job-skill. There's a post or two in Brussels for someone who can translate English/French/German/Spanish ->Irish. Thats about it.
I have no emotions about Irish. I ignored it a long time ago (20 years) and did Art as a substitute honours subject. Easily done then. Now the rich kids get dyslexia.

spalpinfanach

tá an thread seo théis mo chroí a bhriste.. tá fhios agam go bhfuil neart daoine cé nach bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge, ach chun a rá go bhfuil sí marbh? nuair is léir go bhfuil sí i bhfad ón mbás..
ba chóir dóibh a bheith bródúil as an t-aon rud atá fághta againn sa thír seo.. is páirt dár n-oidhreacht í, má leanann muid ar aghaidh sa threo seo beidh an áit ina bhfuil cónaí orainn díreach cosúil le Sasana....

randylonghorn

FloatingVoter wrote: »

By "native Irish speakers" I meant people who can only communicate through Irish.

That may be what you mean by it, but that isn't what anyone else means by it, and it certainly isn't the technical definition.

randylonghorn

spalpinfanach wrote: »

tá an thread seo théis mo chroí a bhriste.. tá fhios agam go bhfuil neart daoine cé nach bhfuil suim acu sa Ghaeilge, ach chun a rá go bhfuil sí marbh? nuair is léir go bhfuil sí i bhfad ón mbás..
ba chóir dóibh a bheith bródúil as an t-aon rud atá fághta againn sa thír seo.. is páirt dár n-oidhreacht í, má leanann muid ar aghaidh sa threo seo beidh an áit ina bhfuil cónaí orainn díreach cosúil le Sasana....

Hi spalpinfanach, welcome to Boards!

Please note that it is site policy that English is the primary language of the site, as that is what the vast majority of our users speak.

This section of the site is available for those who wish to speak only Irish.

And you are certainly welcome to use Irish in many of the other forums on the site, including this one, but the sitewide rule is that posters who wish to do so must also provide a translation of their posts into English as well (as the first poster in this thread has done).

wayhey

AlexderFranke wrote: »

I did not have but about 500 school lessons in English and 150 schools lessons in French at school. And I was fluent in English and still able to do a conversation in French about everything with some help.

With all due respect, it's very difficult to compare learning Irish to English or French. Irish grammar, I would argue, has a lot more exceptions than French grammar. "Simple" words in English, like "progess", become multiple word translations in Irish ("dul chun cinn".. I think). It's a much harder language than French IMO, regardless of how it's taught. I always found French tenses much easier, with more overlap.

Both English and French have a rich culture. It's easy to find access to interesting televison, articles, websites and films. Contemporary Irish culture is saturated with English, so it's no real surprise that children accelerate much more quickly in English. Even interesting French material is easier to access here.

prendizzle wrote: »

If people spent less time complaining and more time using Irish then this wouldn't be an issue. I know I'm in the minority, but I just thought I'd voice my opinion!

This is the only way we'll ever keep the language going. I don't think the minority is as small as you'd think prendizzle. I think a lot of people would like to be more capable at speaking Irish. I know that despite the course and our godawful Gaeilge we loved speaking Irish by the end of 6th Year.

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This is about whether Irish should be mandatory as a LC subject. If you choose to speak Urdu every day, that too is your right. How useful would speaking Irish be in a job interview situation in London, Tokyo or Cork ?
There is a small department in the Irish civil service where it is a necessary job-skill. There's a post or two in Brussels for someone who can translate English/French/German/Spanish ->Irish. Thats about it.
I have no emotions about Irish. I ignored it a long time ago (20 years) and did Art as a substitute honours subject. Easily done then. Now the rich kids get dyslexia.

Learning languages has other benefits. It takes discipline and bestows cultural understanding. Your argument reduces Irish down to its practical use- could I suggest that we get rid of Art, seeing as it has no real impact in a job interview? What about the myriad of Humanities subjects at third level like Philosophy? You're applying Irish to completely unsuitable scenarios (Tokyo/London). What if you want to work with TG4, Raidio na Life, or Foinse? There are other benefits to education apart from getting a job. I don't regret learning Irish even though it's unlikely I'll ever use it in a 9 to 5 situation. It's important to understand our own roots, our own history, our own culture.

Children leaving primary school should be able to converse in Irish, end of. They need to have a basic, but concrete, knowledge of grammar. I'd never heard of the saorbriathar or learned to work with masculine/feminine words before I repeated my Leaving. It had never ever come up before in any Irish class I'd had, primary or secondary. That seems insane. That's changing now though I think, towards that.

Splitting Irish into 2 subjects is a great idea. Leaving Cert Irish 2012 has been changed greatly, with increased marks for the oral, no history, new poetry and even a picture story in the oral. It's a positive step, but I would've preferred to have seen an Irish Language (written, spoken, listening) and Irish Literature and History (perhaps even with an exam through English?). Another huge problem on Irish papers is the use of complicated words, people not understanding questions and becoming completely frustrated.

Consideration of bonus points. Honours Maths is by no means easy- but neither is Honours Irish. I studied bloody hard, every day, and still only got a B in Higher Irish. I think the elevation of Honours Maths is fair enough given its difficulty - but IMO HL Irish takes just as much dedication and hard work. Maybe we could give bonus points at some colleges, which would receive funding to develop and continue the language, eg at NUI Galway?

I would be in favour for completely educating in Irish. It's controversial, but it's the only way to revive the language to any half decent level. I don't think English literacy would struggle all that much anyway with our exposure to British and American media. It's a cruel, tough language- but it's very beautiful.

sdiff

wayhey wrote: »

Learning languages has other benefits. It takes discipline and bestows cultural understanding. Your argument reduces Irish down to its practical use- could I suggest that we get rid of Art, seeing as it has no real impact in a job interview?
What about the myriad of Humanities subjects at third level like Philosophy? You're applying Irish to completely unsuitable scenarios (Tokyo/London). What if you want to work with TG4, Raidio na Life, or Foinse? There are other benefits to education apart from getting a job. I don't regret learning Irish even though it's unlikely I'll ever use it in a 9 to 5 situation. It's important to understand our own roots, our own history, our own culture.

Children leaving primary school should be able to converse in Irish, end of. They need to have a basic, but concrete, knowledge of grammar. I'd never heard of the saorbriathar or learned to work with masculine/feminine words before I repeated my Leaving. It had never ever come up before in any Irish class I'd had, primary or secondary. That seems insane. That's changing now though I think, towards that.

Splitting Irish into 2 subjects is a great idea. Leaving Cert Irish 2012 has been changed greatly, with increased marks for the oral, no history, new poetry and even a picture story in the oral. It's a positive step, but I would've preferred to have seen an Irish Language (written, spoken, listening) and Irish Literature and History (perhaps even with an exam through English?). Another huge problem on Irish papers is the use of complicated words, people not understanding questions and becoming completely frustrated.

Consideration of bonus points. Honours Maths is by no means easy- but neither is Honours Irish. I studied bloody hard, every day, and still only got a B in Higher Irish. I think the elevation of Honours Maths is fair enough given its difficulty - but IMO HL Irish takes just as much dedication and hard work. Maybe we could give bonus points at some colleges, which would receive funding to develop and continue the language, eg at NUI Galway?

I would be in favour for completely educating in Irish. It's controversial, but it's the only way to revive the language to any half decent level. I don't think English literacy would struggle all that much anyway with our exposure to British and American media. It's a cruel, tough language- but it's very beautiful.

Regarding your first paragraph - nobody's suggesting we get rid of it. I want it to be completely optional in the same way art or philosophy or humanities are.

The rest of your post assumes that reviving the language is something the general population wants. It isn't. Irish is a dead language, enough said. There is no reason to revive it. I'm glad to have been born in a country with English as the first language. It means I can easily converse with the people in USA, Canada, Australia, UK, most of Europe etc.

FloatingVoter

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This is about whether Irish should be mandatory as a LC subject. If you choose to speak Urdu every day, that too is your right. How useful would speaking Irish be in a job interview situation in London, Tokyo or Cork ?
There is a small department in the Irish civil service where it is a necessary job-skill. There's a post or two in Brussels for someone who can translate English/French/German/Spanish ->Irish. Thats about it.
I have no emotions about Irish. I ignored it a long time ago (20 years) and did Art as a substitute honours subject. Easily done then. Now the rich kids get dyslexia.

what

randylonghorn

sdiff wrote: »

The rest of your post assumes that reviving the language is something the general population wants. It isn't.

Can you provide any evidence from a national survey to back up that assertion?

For that matter, can those who disagree with you provide any evidence from such a source that it IS something the general population wants?

If not, can both sides please stop making black-and-white statements and taking it upon themselves to speak for 4+ million people.

You are certainly entitled to offer your personal opinion, and for that opinion to be respected, but that's all it is without empirical evidence ... a *personal* opinion.

sdiff wrote: »

Irish is a dead language, enough said.

Irish is not a dead language. A "dead language" has a specific technical meaning, as has been pointed out on this thread already. Latin is a dead language. Irish is not. Neither is Welsh, as someone else was suggesting.

In danger? Yes, one could say that. Dying? You would get people arguing both points of view, but certainly the argument could be made. Dead? No.

Adding "enough said" or "Fact!" to an obviously erroneous statement does not strengthen your argument; it just makes people roll their eyes to heaven, and probably skip the rest of your post! :pac:

sdiff

randylonghorn wrote: »

<snip>

First paragraph: Surely if the majority of people want to learn it then there's no harm in making it optional? Let those who want to learn Irish learn it, let the rest of us drop it. I know I would have dropped it before I even started secondary school. And I know I'll never speak a word of it again once I leave. Add the fact that it doesn't teach any skills that improve myself or my job prospects and there's absolutely no reaosn to force me to learn it.

The second paragraph is just semantics. Dead - well apart from a few remote places yes it is. It isn't spoken in the vast majority of the country. Endagered - yes. Dying - Probably. Useless - apart from a select few who want to work in the gaeltacht or radio na life - definitely.

AlexderFranke

Bhuel, is fiú an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh do ghach dhalta as meas roimh na cainteoirî dúchais agus is den phobal bundúchasach iad mar na hÉireannaî eile. Sin point eile. Is léir go bhfuil fòs idir 50.000 agus 100.000 acu ann ar fud na tíre. Is seafòid iad figiúirí níos ísle.

Smaoinim gur cheart go deo rialacha eagsúla a chur isteach i gceantair in aice leis an nGaeltacht seachas taobh istigh í féin de réir na Gaeilge ar scoil.

Roimh an dTeastas Søisearach, ní bhíonn tuairimeacha féin na ndaltaí socruithe cheana agus is an bhealach is fearr an Ghaeilge a mhúineadh do ghach éinne go dtí an dTeastas Sòiséarach . Mura múintear í go míthaitneamhach, is dóigh nach dtosaíonn an drogall nó an grá roimh an dteanga faoi bhun na haoise seo.


Well, it's worth teaching Irish to each student out of respect to the native speàkers while they are of the indigènous people as the other Irish people. It's clear that between 50.000 and 100.000 of them are still there throughout the country. Lower figures are non-sense

I think that different rules ought to be set up in areas near the Gaeltacht regarding Irish at school beneath inside itself.

The own opinion of students is usually not yet settled until the Junior Certificate and it is the best way to teach Irish to everybody until the Junior Certificate. Unless the teaching is unpleasant, the Reluctance or love for the language is not used to begin before that age.

Go n-éirí libh, Alex

ClaireBearBoat

I went to a primary school situated in the gaeltacht, which means I did all subjects (apart from english of course ) through Irish..( maths, science, history etc. ) I spoke Irish constantly from the age of 5 to 12 and then went on into an english speaking secondary school. I found the transition from learning all my subjects through Irish to learning them all through English very easy! I'm doing my Leaving Cert next June and I find that Irish is my easiest subject. The other people who came from my primary school into my secondary school all find Irish a breeze as well.

Basically, I'm saying that if you have a strong foundation of Irish in primary school then the LC course is very easy to do well in. The way Irish is taught at primary level needs to be seriously looked at because I remember some people who didn't know what a "solas" was in 1st year :eek:

LordSutch

ClaireBearBoat wrote: »

I went to a primary school situated in the gaeltacht . . .

Basically, I'm saying that if you have a strong foundation of Irish in primary school then the LC course is very easy to do well in. The way Irish is taught at primary level needs to be seriously looked at because I remember some people who didn't know what a "solas" was in 1st year :eek:

Well indeed, but what % of children in Ireland go to Primary school in a gaeltacht?

Between 1% and 5% I guess?

prendizzle

LordSutch wrote: »

Well indeed, but what % of children in Ireland go to Primary school in a gaeltacht?

Between 1% and 5% I guess?

There are nearly 200 gaelscoileanna (irish speaking schools) that cater for primary school children. Stop guessing...

spalpinfanach

randylonghorn wrote: »

Hi spalpinfanach, welcome to Boards!

Please note that it is site policy that English is the primary language of the site, as that is what the vast majority of our users speak.

This section of the site is available for those who wish to speak only Irish.

And you are certainly welcome to use Irish in many of the other forums on the site, including this one, but the sitewide rule is that posters who wish to do so must also provide a translation of their posts into English as well (as the first poster in this thread has done).

no problem babes!
gan fhadbh a thaisce......

randylonghorn

spalpinfanach wrote: »

no problem babes!
gan fhadbh a thaisce......

Tá fáilte romhat / you're welcome!



Sínithe / signed:

Babes.

randylonghorn

randylonghorn wrote: »

Tá fáilte romhat / you're welcome!



Sínithe / signed:

Babes.

Its the new Ciara

deise go deo

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Ní raibh ach timpeall 500 ceacht scoile an Bhéarla agus 150 ceacht scoile na Fraincise agam ar scoil. Agus bhí mé líofa as Béarla agus fós in ann comhrá a dhéanamh as Fraincis faoi ghach scéal le neart cuidithe. Feictear dom go luann an Rialtas Canaideach luachanna ró-ard.

I did not have but about 500 school lessons in English and 150 schools lessons in French at school. And I was fluent in English and still able to do a conversation in French about everything with some help.

Were those 500 lessons in English the only contact you ever had with the language? Or did you use it/listen to it outside the classroom as well?

One of the big problems with learning Irish is that most pupils never come into contact with it outside the classroom and as such the only contact time they have with the language is in the classroom, this means that outside of saying 'an bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an Leithris' most pupils never get to practice actually speaking the language. Most class time, even since the change to 50% for LC Oral, is given to reading/ listening to the teacher speaking, and this results in most students being able to understand spoken/written Irish to a generally reasonable degree, but not being able to speak the language very well.

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

Well indeed, but what % of children in Ireland go to Primary school in a gaeltacht?

Between 1% and 5% I guess?

Between Schools in the Gaeltacht and Gaelscoils around the country roughly 7.8% of Primary school kids are educated through Irish (Republic only)

At Second Level it is roughly 4.1% educated through Irish.