Overseas doctors in row with HSE over their contracts

take everything

Thought this would be of interest.
The newly recruited doctors from abroad getting to know the HSE and its ways.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0903/1224303426570.html

Edit: Just saw the other thread.
Dunno if a merge with that is appropriate.

nursextreme

Of the 191 posts that became vacant in July two months later only 15 have been filled. This shows a clear lack of forward planning by the HSE Human Resources.

dissed doc

It made me lol a little, as this scenario was always going to happen. Can't attract the Irish docs, or the other european or western countries docs, can't get people from 20,000km away to stay either.

Looks like the HSE actually believed their own BS about junior docs all making 100 grand a year. Can't believe they had the gross average earnings written in a contract signed in Pakistan, and then of course the real salary and contract when they arrived was the normal €35-45k salary.

I simply do not believe that anyone in the HSE administration side is actually this stupid, so the natural conclusion is to make a half assed attempt, too little, too late, because the ultimate goal is to shut the public service hospitals (while hopefully having some temp docs here for 6-12 months to prevent a massive spike in deaths, etc., ).

nursextreme

dissed doc wrote: »

Looks like the HSE actually believed their own BS about junior docs all making 100 grand a year. Can't believe they had the gross average earnings written in a contract signed in Pakistan, and then of course the real salary and contract when they arrived was the normal €35-45k salary.

They didn't tell them they would have to work 26 hours Overtime in order to meet those gross average earnings, I take it. Did they honestly believe they would be on 100K a year basic salary.

We should try to hold on to our own Irish trained doctors, why not train more to ease the pressure and reduce the disillusionment among Irish Junior Doctors.

opinion guy

I think its worth reminding ourselves here that the HSE spent EUR 113,000 going over there to recruit shaft these guys.
http://medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=nchd_jobs_trip_cost_hse_113k

And to think these poor folks were probably enticed to leave jobs at home!

Traumadoc

Would they be subject to the 10% pay reduction that all new entrants are supposed to take?

nursextreme

Traumadoc wrote: »

Would they be subject to the 10% pay reduction that all new entrants are supposed to take?

Good question! You would imagine so, must make a few enquiries.

Traumadoc

I wonder will they be starting at the bottom of the pay scales?

ie year 1 SHO or year 1 reg?

drzhivago

nursextreme wrote: »

They didn't tell them they would have to work 26 hours Overtime in order to meet those gross average earnings, I take it. Did they honestly believe they would be on 100K a year basic salary.

We should try to hold on to our own Irish trained doctors, why not train more to ease the pressure and reduce the disillusionment among Irish Junior Doctors.

Training more wont solve the problem, we have been training loads they leave because

• Training crap compared to what they get abroad
• working conditions poor - told average 48 horu week, practice 70+ and not paid for a lot of it
• Have to take legal action to get paid
• training grant which was used to pay for the additional costs of exams/books/mandatory courses/ and mandatory training fee of up to €3000 to occupy a job removed
• GEt rotated to world class training centres such as the Mayo Clinic in .... Castlebar and the world reknowned Cavan General
• No guaranteed career progression
• real chance of multiple periods of unemployment as jobs filled in your area and no vacancy despite gaps in areas you dont want or need to work in
• Mandatory research year/two at minimal or NO salary during this period
• no control over work sites ie moved all round country despite family base in Dublin/cork/Galway

Any or all of the above are legitimate excuses for these guys to leave

Two years ago HSE in High court about working hours and NCHD contract

What was outcome
loss of training grant (implemented)
salary cut (implemented)
Promise to reduce hours (not implemented)
Overtime rate increased to 150% from 125% ( hospitals wont pay hours worked so not implemented)
No More 24 hour shifts (not implemented)
No more 48 hour shifts (not implemented)
Training grant to be removed (implemented)

As youc an see anywhere money could be saved HSE came up to the mark very quickly

Anywhere conditions could be improved to the detriment of easy organisation/management -NOT IMPLEMENTED

REsult

Doctors leaving in droves much earlier than before so ultimately will be a massive saving for HSE as they wont have to pay salaries when they cant recruit at all

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

Would they be subject to the 10% pay reduction that all new entrants are supposed to take?

Very good question

Must look that one up

That would mean a lower grade of NCHD pay to match the lwoer grade of consultant pay as well

drzhivago

Traumadoc wrote: »

I wonder will they be starting at the bottom of the pay scales?

ie year 1 SHO or year 1 reg?

Yes and no

they will start but they will be paid increments based on similar work in similar type university hospitals abroad

BUT

any i have met are 1st year SHO anyway so wont matter much

OF NOTE

I had two vacancies recently, 2 Irish guys back from OZ and elsewhere wanted to apply and were told tehy could not because the jobs were reserved for this group when and If they passed exams

seems odd have a tax payer funded position that an Irish citizen cant apply for

ALSO of note

they have promised jobs to a large number of people who are here

They dont have vacancies for them all and the vacancies they do have wont all be filled by these guys eg A&E reg jobs

Thus we can guarantee non citizens a job from overseas who need to complete an exam and have paperwork examined BUT we cant guarantee jobs to our graduating students OR Interns for 1st year SHO jobs

opinion guy

I have an image in my mind that the HSE bosses spend time in their closed door meetings all furiously playing the fiddle and having great crack whilst the walls are on fire all around them

drzhivago

opinion guy wrote: »

I have an image in my mind that the HSE bosses spend time in their closed door meetings all furiously playing the fiddle and having great crack whilst the walls are on fire all around them

That is quite a skillful task requiring complex planning, co-ordination, rehearsal, psychomotors skills etc

I doubt the above group are capable

opinion guy

Meanwhile training remains "on the critical list"

http://medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=training_on_critical_list

http://medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=training_under_strain

dissed doc

It is dangerous for the HSE to have a bunch of pissed-off Irish doctors around - so

1) prevent irish doctors from getting work in available posts - so they emigrate
2) do not advertise any posts in ireland in other european medical countries
3) temporarily man the hospitals being shut with far east doctors who are unware of the EWTD or other employment rights in europe
4) use the manpower crisis to shut hospitals


The Health Service Executive has as much to do with maintaining a functioning health service, as the War on Drugs has to do with stopping drug use.

The only fly in the ointment is that the Harney plan to replace doctors on the Medical Council is only partially successful. If it was fully "non-medical" as was her intention, there would be no problem with registration or standards holding up these far east doctors. She only got part way - so it's still the only medical council with a non-doctor majority in the western world including europe, but there are thankfully enough medics left to put a finger in the dyke - for now.

RobFowl

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0914/1224304082402.html
DOCTORS BROUGHT to the Republic from India and Pakistan to address severe shortages in public hospitals have decided to return home after delays in their Medical Council registration.
Some of the 270 non-consultant hospital doctors recruited to fill junior posts that fell vacant in July this year have left the Republic after spending two months in the country awaiting registration.
It is not known how many have left, but one source said “dozens” had done so.
To date 110 of the doctors who were brought here have been registered. Those awaiting registration have been provided with food and accommodation, but are earning no money.

opinion guy

It really is appalling treatment of these doctors and the public
And worth remembering 113000 spent on recruiting these doctors.

Doubtless noone will be held to account over all this