The country's awash with washed diesel.....(excuse the pun)

MidlandsM

Old news I know, but still, watch what your buying.......http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ojkfididgbid/

Four arrests were made today in a major cross-border, multi-agency fuel fraud operation.

Officers from Revenue’s Customs Service, gardaí and the Criminal Assets Bureau seized thousands of litres of laundered fuel from filling stations and uncovered an oil-laundering plant.

In operations in counties Roscommon, Galway, Offaly, Westmeath and Dublin, customs officers, gardaí and CAB carried out searches at five filling stations, in which a total of 48,350 litres of laundered fuel was seized.

Four men were arrested by gardaí during the operation. A man in his 20s and a second in his 30s are currently detained at Monaghan garda station under Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984.

Two men aged in their 40s are also detained at Tullamore and Roscommon Garda Stations under Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1984.

In Roscommon, officers seized 4,700 litres of fuel. In Loughrea, Co Galway, 6,150 litres were seized.

In Birr, Co. Offaly, officers seized 17,000 litres of fuel. In Athlone officers seized 11,500 litres of fuel and in Dublin 9,000 litres of laundered fuel was seized at one filling station in the Rathfarnham area.

In a simultaneous operation in Corrygarry, Castleblayney, Co Monaghan, customs officers supported by gardaí uncovered a significant oil-laundering plant. The plant had the capacity to launder an estimated 18 million litres of fuel per annum with a potential loss to the Exchequer of €9m per annum. A laundering operation was underway at the time.

Customs Officers seized 95,000 litres of product at the site. Three tankers in which the product was held were also seized as well as two transit vans, a box lorry, a 40 foot tanker and an articulated lorry with a combined value of €55,000.

A man in his thirties from Northern Ireland was arrested at the scene.

In counties Armagh and Tyrone, HM Revenue and Customs supported by the PSNI, executed search warrants at four addresses.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ojkfididgbid/#ixzz1Wii4C5sZ

Atlantic Dawn

What are the risks of running it in your car or is it just an old wives tail that it does damage?

I know there's various ways of removing the dye from using cat litter type filtering to using strong acids, are all the same?

mikewest

Does anyone know which Roscommon filling station was found with dodgy diesel? I have had engine trouble after filling up in a particular station and am curious if this is the same one.

L1011

mikewest wrote: »

Does anyone know which Roscommon filling station was found with dodgy diesel? I have had engine trouble after filling up in a particular station and am curious if this is the same one.

Had it appeared in the previous 6 months and sold solely diesel with a price about 10c lower than anyone nearby? Thats the standard type to watch out for...

_Conrad_

How is this supposedly a new thing? There has always been lots of dodgy diesel around.

Wexfordian

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What are the risks of running it in your car or is it just an old wives tail that it does damage?

I know there's various ways of removing the dye from using cat litter type filtering to using strong acids, are all the same?

As far as I know, there aren't any (non-legal) risks, its the same stuff with dye added. Though cat litter or acid might create contaminants.

MidlandsM

_Conrad_ wrote: »

How is this supposedly a new thing? There has always been lots of dodgy diesel around.

Conrad you blind dipstick, if you read my post, I said its old news, not a new thing. I just posted this news item to effect some debate.

R P McMurphy

Wexfordian wrote: »

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What are the risks of running it in your car or is it just an old wives tail that it does damage?

I know there's various ways of removing the dye from using cat litter type filtering to using strong acids, are all the same?

As far as I know, there aren't any (non-legal)? risks, its the same stuff with dye added. Though cat litter or acid might create contaminants.

Washing it with cat litter is a clean process although more expensive on the dudes cleaning

laoch na mona

what harm its cheaper and its safe

bryaner

Does the washing process not take a lot of lube from the diesel and then rusts up pump and injectors etc?

lifer_sean

laoch na mona wrote: »

what harm its cheaper and its safe

Forgetting about the taxation issues for the moment, there is no way I'd put that "diesel" into anything, especially a modern diesel engine. After using acid to get rid of the dye, if not perfectly neutralised, the acid residue will make short work of your fuel system. If you want to save 10c a litre and gamble with a possible 2000-3000 euro bill for repairs to your car, then work away. If you use 6000 gallons of diesel without damage then the savings will pay.

As regards your engine, you would be much safer to run it on the green diesel directly as this won't harm your engine. Revenue would have something to say to you though.

Are the identities of the fuel stations public knowledge or reported anywhere ? Would be interested to know where they are so that (a) I could avoid them and (b) if they were regular, "branded" filling stations or dodgy "diesel tank in yard, cash only" operations.

-Chris-

MidlandsM wrote: »

Conrad you blind dipstick, if you read my post, I said its old news, not a new thing. I just posted this news item to effect some debate.

I've had enough of you and Conrad sniping at each other, and unfortunately for you you're the first to cross the line into personal abuse.

MidlandsM banned for 3 days for personal abuse.

The tax man

lifer_sean wrote: »

Are the identities of the fuel stations public knowledge or reported anywhere ? Would be interested to know where they are so that (a) I could avoid them and (b) if they were regular, "branded" filling stations or dodgy "diesel tank in yard, cash only" operations.

Well one is down the road from me in Rathfarnham. Customs officers and Gardaí have been there all day. They sprung up a few months ago. Operation was run from an old petrol station that's been closed for years.

reiger

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

What are the risks of running it in your car or is it just an old wives tail that it does damage?


I know there's various ways of removing the dye from using cat litter type filtering to using strong acids, are all the same?

laoch na mona wrote: »

what harm its cheaper and its safe

how niave are ye,use the stuff but you will suffer heavy in the pocket i know i bought fuel at my local station it turned out he was using washed stuff,it was a very costly fix

bryaner wrote: »

Does the washing process not take a lot of lube from the diesel and then rusts up pump and injectors etc?

yes

lifer_sean wrote: »

Forgetting about the taxation issues for the moment, there is no way I'd put that "diesel" into anything, especially a modern diesel engine. After using acid to get rid of the dye, if not perfectly neutralised, the acid residue will make short work of your fuel system. If you want to save 10c a litre and gamble with a possible 2000-3000 euro bill for repairs to your car, then work away. If you use 6000 gallons of diesel without damage then the savings will pay.

As regards your engine, you would be much safer to run it on the green diesel directly as this won't harm your engine. Revenue would have something to say to you though.

Are the identities of the fuel stations public knowledge or reported anywhere ? Would be interested to know where they are so that (a) I could avoid them and (b) if they were regular, "branded" filling stations or dodgy "diesel tank in yard, cash only" operations.

your right

what i cannot understand why is testing not standard and regular for petrol stations and if the are caught very heavy fines.

i live near hand the border and its not every where i can buy my diesel you have to be very carerful.its a serious problem, the boys up south Armagh country are knee deep in it

Darsad

Anybody can and most probaby have unsuspectingly bought and paid top dollar for washed diesel lots of it is sold through branded stations . I know of a number of petrol station owners who were leaned on by heavies with subversive affilations and persuaded to mix a little laudered stuff in on top of their regular supply and that is their most popular route to market oh and its rife and not before time that there was a major crackdown on it.

Big Nasty

Darsad wrote: »

I know of a number of petrol station owners who were leaned on by heavies with subversive affilations and persuaded to mix a little laudered stuff in on top of their regular supply and that is their most popular route to market oh and its rife and not before time that there was a major crackdown on it.

Yet another reason not to live on / near border counties. :mad:

vetstu

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Yet another reason not to live on / near border counties. :mad:

Offaly, Galway, roscommon or Dublin aren't border counties and that's where the stations were that were being supplied from this plant.
It is usually obvious where is selling the stuff, but people will do anything to save a few quid without thinking of the consequences for their engines.

Oh and I hope the customs take the right road this time and dont meet Maguire and Patterson on the way out of it with the evidence

Beggared

The amount of money the State takes in from fuel must be staggering. Is it any wonder that the criminals want a slice of this easy money? It's better than drugs.

Does anybody know the annual take for the State from fuel?

E39MSport

(was) on Radio 1 at present

E39MSport

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Yet another reason not to live on / near border counties. :mad:

Rathfarnham was one location.

cadaliac

vetstu wrote: »

Offaly, Galway, roscommon or Dublin aren't border counties and that's where the stations were that were being supplied from this plant.
It is usually obvious where is selling the stuff, but people will do anything to save a few quid without thinking of the consequences for their engines.

Oh and I hope the customs take the right road this time and dont meet Maguire and Patterson on the way out of it with the evidence

Seems that it isn't financially viable to transport the washed stuff any further down south than the middle of the country, which begs the question: Is there a washing plant in the south? As in, Cork or Kerry?
Big depot in Whitegate and Limerick also afik. Surely not just the boarder counties, I'd say it is rife across the country.

Gophur

There was a huge plant in Dunsink, a few years back. At the trial the Oil company gave evidence of supplying three tanker loads of green diesel per week to the location, which begs the question about their compliance with the whole operation.


A discount/no-name station has opened close to me. I'll pay the extra for TOP or Topaz fuel, thanks.

Bandara

Darsad wrote: »

Anybody can and most probaby have unsuspectingly bought and paid top dollar for washed diesel lots of it is sold through branded stations . I know of a number of petrol station owners who were leaned on by heavies with subversive affilations and persuaded to mix a little laudered stuff in on top of their regular supply and that is their most popular route to market oh and its rife and not before time that there was a major crackdown on it.

that is complete rubbish, the vast vast vast majority of this fuel is thru independent garages.

I reported 12 garages to the revenue myself on Wednesday that are selling washed fuel. One out of the 12 was a branded garage, and even that was a tiny insignificant brand

Bandara

cadaliac wrote: »

Seems that it isn't financially viable to transport the washed stuff any further down south than the middle of the country, which begs the question: Is there a washing plant in the south? As in, Cork or Kerry?
Big depot in Whitegate and Limerick also afik. Surely not just the boarder counties, I'd say it is rife across the country.

they make approx 40c per litre on a tanker of fuel which holds 36,000 ltrs.

That's €14,400 per tanker. I'd say that's very viable.

CJhaughey

There is an easy fix.
You sell one type of diesel not marked and unmarked.
However any diesel vehicle operating on the road pays the difference for road usage by buying mileage in blocks of 1000 km etc
If you are caught using a vehicle on the road that doesn't have current road user charges then the fine is twice what buying the mileage in the first place would have been or the vehicle is impounded and crushed.
This would be far easier to police than trying to stop laundering facilities.

Mr.Boots

Tighter control over the wholesale selling of the green diesel would help the situation.
If the supplier is held accountable for the suply of green diesel then i think they would think twice before selling it to anyone who comes along.
Even filling stations dont give a rats who buys the Agri diesel from them.
You cant walk into a chemist and but a load of Prozac because its controlled.
It should be the same for the diesel.

-Chris-

CJhaughey wrote: »

There is an easy fix.
You sell one type of diesel not marked and unmarked.
However any diesel vehicle operating on the road pays the difference for road usage by buying mileage in blocks of 1000 km etc
If you are caught using a vehicle on the road that doesn't have current road user charges then the fine is twice what buying the mileage in the first place would have been or the vehicle is impounded and crushed.
This would be far easier to police than trying to stop laundering facilities.

You're saying it'd be easier to police a system where the driver of every diesel vehicle on the road (including grannies in their new diesel scrappage-mobiles) needs to go somewhere to buy a permit to operate the vehicle and renew the permit every x,000KMs?

You can barely get people to pull over when the "Emergency, Pull Over" light starts flashing on the dash!

alfagirl

Anyone know which station in Athlone?

Tea 1000

-Chris- wrote: »

You're saying it'd be easier to police a system where the driver of every diesel vehicle on the road (including grannies in their new diesel scrappage-mobiles) needs to go somewhere to buy a permit to operate the vehicle and renew the permit every x,000KMs?

You can barely get people to pull over when the "Emergency, Pull Over" light starts flashing on the dash!

But maybe he has a point. How about a different system whereby all diesel for all customers is the standard road diesel price, and farmers and any other business apply for a rebate on any amount they purchased with documented evidence of their annual usage of it?
Sounds complicated alright, but surely there must be a way of doing it? Even a labour intensive method should be cheaper than loosing millions and f**king up many injectors of unsupecting road users.
You can trace a slice of meat back to the feckin farm it was born in for example, and everything done to it since.
It's no feckin wonder fuel pumps and injectors and all that are packing in left, right and center in this country.

-Chris-

Tea 1000 wrote: »

But maybe he has a point. How about a different system whereby all diesel for all customers is the standard road diesel price, and farmers and any other business apply for a rebate on any amount they purchased with documented evidence of their annual usage of it?
Sounds complicated alright, but surely there must be a way of doing it? Even a labour intensive method should be cheaper than loosing millions and f**king up many injectors of unsupecting road users.
You can trace a slice of meat back to the feckin farm it was born in for example, and everything done to it since.
It's no feckin wonder fuel pumps and injectors and all that are packing in left, right and center in this country.

But that's still open to corruption in that the farmers/truckers (or whoever) would be able to buy the normal diesel, reclaim the rebate, and then use it to power all their (and their neighbours) private cars.

You still need a dye of some sort so that Customs can check if the system is being abused.

Also, I don't think a modern tractor is any more forgiving than a modern car when it comes to crappy fuel quality, so the issue of damaged injectors will be of concern to everyone I presume.

Lanshane

Any idea of the stations involved in Galway or Roscommon?

shedweller

Beggared wrote: »

The amount of money the State takes in from fuel must be staggering. Is it any wonder that the criminals want a slice of this easy money? It's better than drugs.

Does anybody know the annual take for the State from fuel?

Ask and you shall receive: http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/ir_gs_ov.pdf (petrol) I think it's about 4 million euro tax per day on petrol.

http://omrpublic.iea.org/demand/ir_dl_ov.pdf (diesel)

keithclancy

CJhaughey wrote: »

There is an easy fix.
You sell one type of diesel not marked and unmarked.
However any diesel vehicle operating on the road pays the difference for road usage by buying mileage in blocks of 1000 km etc
If you are caught using a vehicle on the road that doesn't have current road user charges then the fine is twice what buying the mileage in the first place would have been or the vehicle is impounded and crushed.
This would be far easier to police than trying to stop laundering facilities.

And people keep banging on about incorporating the cost of Motor Tax into the price of fuel

mags1962

Was in Belfast recently and in conversation with a Taxi driver who said he would not even buy car fuel from the Supermarkets as they do not put certain additives into it to keep the cost down. Imagine what the dodgy stuff is missing or has extra's left over from the cleaning process.
Bought cheap diesel once and I reckon it did have an effect on the engine and particularly when under acceleration.

Tea 1000

-Chris- wrote: »

But that's still open to corruption in that the farmers/truckers (or whoever) would be able to buy the normal diesel, reclaim the rebate, and then use it to power all their (and their neighbours) private cars.

You still need a dye of some sort so that Customs can check if the system is being abused.

Also, I don't think a modern tractor is any more forgiving than a modern car when it comes to crappy fuel quality, so the issue of damaged injectors will be of concern to everyone I presume.

But a Tractor runs unwashed normal green diesel, which is fine. There's no point in giving a tractor washed diesel, so they never face that problem.
I know about levels of abuse, but if you had the average fuel consumption of a tractor that a farmer owns, times the hours documented that he runs you can calculate the fuel he uses.
Besides, I bet if you tie the farmer down to a realistic level of allowance, the level of abuse he could effectively manage times the number of abusing farmers could be smaller than the smugglers.
You could realisticly categories farms in terms of saying "you have a Same Silver 100hp tractor, a Ferguson 135, a bailer, wrapper, and mower conditioner. You also have 40 acres which you bale twice a year. That will use x litres of fuel in those two tractors, plus an extra y litres for other times of the year gives you a z litres allowance for the year."
That way he may have only 100 litres of fuel benefit that he can sell to his mates at most, but that's feck all. If he does more work than that, then provide documented proof. A new tractor will slightly modify the calculation.
It's not perfect, but it's probably within 85% accurate.

bambooman2

My car has damaged injectors most likely from washed diesel. Not sure which filling station caused the problem but I have used independents in the Dublin area a few times. I understand it doesn't take a long time to cause the damage - a single fill could be enough. Its not worth the 10 cents or so saving. I will now only use well the bigger chains.:(

E39MSport

bambooman2 wrote: »

My car has damaged injectors most likely from washed diesel. Not sure which filling station caused the problem but I have used independents in the Dublin area a few times. I understand it doesn't take a long time to cause the damage - a single fill could be enough. Its not worth the 10 cents or so saving. I will now only use well the bigger chains.:(

AD Dublin in Walkinstown are good diesel specialists.

amacachi

Hammertime wrote: »

I reported 12 garages to the revenue myself on Wednesday that are selling washed fuel. One out of the 12 was a branded garage, and even that was a tiny insignificant brand

Do you do it often? There's a place selling dodgy stuff here, same guy's been popping up in different places for a year or two at a time then moving on. He's been reported but is still operating.

Gophur

Hammertime wrote: »

.........
I reported 12 garages to the revenue myself on Wednesday that are selling washed fuel. One out of the 12 was a branded garage, and even that was a tiny insignificant brand

Care to explain how you knew? Or are you involved in such detection , professionally?

Bandara

Gophur wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

.........
I reported 12 garages to the revenue myself on Wednesday that are selling washed fuel. One out of the 12 was a branded garage, and even that was a tiny insignificant brand

Care to explain how you knew? Or are you involved in such detection , professionally?

it's common knowledge in the industry tbh

Even if it wasn't just looking at the price of the fuel is pretty close to a 100% way of telling who is washed and who isn't. It's not a coincidence that the cheapest derv in the country is pretty much all independant garages, but somehow it's not the same for petrol

Fuel industry is one that operates of margins of 2 or 3%, it's not possible for someone to be 10c cheaper than The majority of other garages. Also big players in an industry are always the cheapest due to bulk buying power etc etc, yet somehow the fuel business sees the big players gettng their asses kicked by mickey mouse flybynight operators.

CJhaughey

-Chris- wrote: »

You're saying it'd be easier to police a system where the driver of every diesel vehicle on the road (including grannies in their new diesel scrappage-mobiles) needs to go somewhere to buy a permit to operate the vehicle and renew the permit every x,000KMs?

You can barely get people to pull over when the "Emergency, Pull Over" light starts flashing on the dash!

Sure, this system is already in use for vehicles that use fuel not taxed at source.
Don't forget you are dealing with oil companies that aren't worried who buys their fuel as long as they sell it.
If you have a system that doesn't require marked fuel it removes the incentive to launder diesel and with it the ability for criminal profit from the sale of the fuel.
But this is Ireland........

Gophur

Hammertime wrote: »

Gophur wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

.........
I reported 12 garages to the revenue myself on Wednesday that are selling washed fuel. One out of the 12 was a branded garage, and even that was a tiny insignificant brand

Care to explain how you knew? Or are you involved in such detection , professionally?

it's common knowledge in the industry tbh

Even if it wasn't just looking at the price of the fuel is pretty close to a 100% way of telling who is washed and who isn't. It's not a coincidence that the cheapest derv in the country is pretty much all independant garages, but somehow it's not the same for petrol

Fuel industry is one that operates of margins of 2 or 3%, it's not possible for someone to be 10c cheaper than The majority of other garages. Also big players in an industry are always the cheapest due to bulk buying power etc etc, yet somehow the fuel business sees the big players gettng their asses kicked by mickey mouse flybynight operators.

To state that a station is selling washed diesel, purely because their price is cheap, is wrong.

The retail margins are small in the stations controlled by the large distributors. It's entirely possible independent oil wholesalers are selling their products to independent retailers at prices that allow the lower selling prices we see.

While washes diesel may be sold at cheaper prices, the corollary is not true, cheaper does not mean the diesel is washed.

Solnskaya

on a similar(ish) note, I bought a "revenue siezed" vehicle recently, and when I went to service it, the fuel system was full to the neck with green diesel- so, it must be revenue policy to sieze vehicles using green these days- I just hope I don't get stopped until the cabbage juice has worked its way through the system and I can fill it from empty with the right stuff, or it could be going back into the "revenue siezed" sale again! The green diesel racket seems to be fairly widespread. Personally, i'd only buy diesel from a station I know, just too much damage done by the washed muck.

Bandara

Gophur wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

Gophur wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

.........
I reported 12 garages to the revenue myself on Wednesday that are selling washed fuel. One out of the 12 was a branded garage, and even that was a tiny insignificant brand

Care to explain how you knew? Or are you involved in such detection , professionally?

it's common knowledge in the industry tbh

Even if it wasn't just looking at the price of the fuel is pretty close to a 100% way of telling who is washed and who isn't. It's not a coincidence that the cheapest derv in the country is pretty much all independant garages, but somehow it's not the same for petrol

Fuel industry is one that operates of margins of 2 or 3%, it's not possible for someone to be 10c cheaper than The majority of other garages. Also big players in an industry are always the cheapest due to bulk buying power etc etc, yet somehow the fuel business sees the big players gettng their asses kicked by mickey mouse flybynight operators.

To state that a station is selling washed diesel, purely because their price is cheap, is wrong.

The retail margins are small in the stations controlled by the large distributors. It's entirely possible independent oil wholesalers are selling their products to independent retailers at prices that allow the lower selling prices we see.

While washes diesel may be sold at cheaper prices, the corollary is not true, cheaper does not mean the diesel is washed.

I disagree with you completely.

I'm fully aware in the margins available to both company owned, large dealer owned and small independent sites. I receive the relevant Platts index daily.

it is utterly impossible for a station to be ten cents cheaper than the average price when the average margin is 4 to 5 cents at most. Coupled with the fact that the vast majority of these cheap derv sites are old reopened stations, or very basic places that do not have the coffee, deli and other high margin sales that are in effect the only thing that's keeping most stations open, then their pricing is doubly impossible.

As of this moment derv schedule price is 129.62, add the vat and the full schedul. Is close to 1.56 a litre. Take off the normal additions and your left wih a price of approx 1.40 to 1.45.

Yet these places are selling for close to 1.31. How exactly ?

Cheaper in the extreme does mean that it's washed derv, either that or the owner is happy to be losing thousands each day.

deepspeed

Lanshane wrote: »

Any idea of the stations involved in Galway or Roscommon?

<snip - links to a reputable source please>