Outdated Football Pundits

Lemlin

Have to say that I watched Sunday's All-Ireland semi final with one thought running through my head - what is Spillane going to say about this at half time. The thing is though that it's about time RTE brought in a few more up-to-date and younger pundits. Spillane and O'Rourke played in the 80s and Brolly in the 90s. Their view of football seems to be that the 80s and 90s was the golden era. I'm sure plenty who watched the matches at the time would say different.

I think the pundits have to realise that gaelic football, as with all sports, has to evolve. Teams need to play to their strengths and Donegal were playing to theirs. It may not be pretty but if Cavan played the same tactics and got to an All-Ireland semi final, I wouldn't give a damn.

The same thing was said about Tyrone when they used a blanket defence in 2003 but people will now acknowledge that Tyrone have been one of the teams of the past decade.

Het-Field

Lemlin wrote: »

Have to say that I watched Sunday's All-Ireland semi final with one thought running through my head - what is Spillane going to say about this at half time. The thing is though that it's about time RTE brought in a few more up-to-date and younger pundits. Spillane and O'Rourke played in the 80s and Brolly in the 90s. Their view of football seems to be that the 80s and 90s was the golden era. I'm sure plenty who watched the matches at the time would say different.

I think the pundits have to realise that gaelic football, as with all sports, has to evolve. Teams need to play to their strengths and Donegal were playing to theirs. It may not be pretty but if Cavan played the same tactics and got to an All-Ireland semi final, I wouldn't give a damn.

The same thing was said about Tyrone when they used a blanket defence in 2003 but people will now acknowledge that Tyrone have been one of the teams of the past decade.

The difference is, Tyrone are/were good in every department.

Donegal do not have the forwards to be able to successfully implement a defensive system. They were lucky to beat Kildare in the first place, and if they had let Dublin play the game could have been finished much earlier. I dont think we will see a great deal more from Donegal, unless alternative plans of action are devised.

However, I agree that pundits must evolve, and take stock of alternative systems. No doubt, pure soccer existed at some point, but differing teams will focused on their strengths, and this was ultimately recognised, and pundits proffered their views on the basis of alternatives to the traditional 4-4-2

MfMan

Lemlin wrote: »

Have to say that I watched Sunday's All-Ireland semi final with one thought running through my head - what is Spillane going to say about this at half time. The thing is though that it's about time RTE brought in a few more up-to-date and younger pundits. Spillane and O'Rourke played in the 80s and Brolly in the 90s. Their view of football seems to be that the 80s and 90s was the golden era. I'm sure plenty who watched the matches at the time would say different.

No. Spillane may be there for the jollity angle but Brolly and especially O Rourke are amongst the best pundits there are out there. Brolly is a better reader of the game than he's given credit for and O Rourke, involved with schools' coaching after all, is the epitome of sense and balance. Superior to Davis, McStay et al.

corny

Its a shame they lost Dara O' Cinneide to TG4. Wouldn't bore you to tears (O' Rourke), doesn't love the sound of his own voice (Brolly) and isn't big on state of the nation speeches (Spillane).

Syferus

Brolly for all his trolling is an astute pundit and much as I love to hate Spillane I'd never want him dropped from the panel. O'Rouke would be the weakest of the three, he has a tendency to get antsy whenever one of the other two makes a contradictory point to his opinion and rarely backs it up with a valid response.

jive

Brolly is very good IMO. I don't rate Spillane or O'Rourke at all to be honest as they spout some serious nonsense at the best of times. I like Brolly because he calls them on it.

O'Rourke said that the GAA needs Dublin to win the All Ireland because they are the cash cow of the GAA. I think many will agree that this is a load of shíte (the former part, not the latter about being the cash cow). Brolly called him on it. Brolly often calls Spillane out on some of the crap he says as well.

You need one or two bad pundits though and one or two good ones so you get arguments like with Eamonn Dunphy and co. I watch the pundits for entertainment value to be honest as I'm long enough in the tooth to assess the game myself although I do like when they speak a bit of sense as they may enlighten you to something you hadn't seen during the game.

StephenHendry

brolly is very good, not afraid to put his point across even if it will cause an argument, spillane is very good. o'rourke sits on the fench too often, too cagey really and always seems to hold back unlike the other too.

for the final i'd like to see brolly, spillane and tony davis for the live game. it would be good to see him and brolly have another row like they had on the sunday game at night a few weeks back when discussing the merits of the cork team

homerjay2005

the fact your talking abotu them on here means they are doing their job.....publicity is that they want. you will still listen to them, even if you dont disagree with them, you were still thinking at half time "what will spillane say"

the new ones, mcconville, ciaran whelan, sherlock, mchugh, curran, tohill etc etc are all dreadful, boring and they dont stay about long.

Lemlin

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the fact your talking abotu them on here means they are doing their job.....publicity is that they want. you will still listen to them, even if you dont disagree with them, you were still thinking at half time "what will spillane say"

the new ones, mcconville, ciaran whelan, sherlock, mchugh, curran, tohill etc etc are all dreadful, boring and they dont stay about long.

But in fairness some new blood is needed. I was thinking "what will Spillane say" because I knew he'd come out with the same dreadful crap as always.

These lads need to realise that football is evolving and tactics are coming into it more and more. It's not just about 15 men marking each other one-on-one anymore. It's now about systems and making the most of the team you have.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Ciaran Whelan was good any time I've seen but think it would be too much to ask for a Dub;)

Lemlin

I think this article sums up the RTE lads and their memories of when they played perfectly:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=74169985

SIDELINE CUT : The feeding frenzy carried out by RTÉ’s trio of panellists last Sunday on Donegal’s performance was lacking in both taste and personal recall


SO IF and when Pat Spillane or Joe Brolly or Colm O’Rourke or any of the voices of Establishment happen to bump into Jim McGuinness at some of the velvet-tie functions this autumn, will they have the good grace to apologise to him? Doubtful.

But that doesn’t make the comments emanating from RTÉ on Sunday afternoon and Sunday evening any less disgraceful or insulting – not just to McGuinness but to the entire squad and, by extension, to the county.

The tone of disparagement set by Spillane after Donegal’s championship opening-day victory over Antrim overflowed into naked contempt following their 0-8 to 0-6 All-Ireland semi-final loss to Dublin on Sunday night. In slagging McGuinness and the Donegal side off, the afternoon panellists positioned themselves as aesthetes, brimming with concern about the image of the game.

Funny, that. Maybe weird things happen to the memory when you enter the powder room at Montrose and get dolled up for the cameras.

But it might be worth recalling the reality of Gaelic football when they were playing the game. In 1987, Paddy Downey, the doyen of Gaelic games coverage, penned an article predicting that the upcoming All-Ireland final between the Meath team of Colm O’Rourke’s vintage and Cork would be every bit as ugly as the 1967 showdown between the counties, which was remembered chiefly for providing the statistic of 51 frees in 60 minutes.

“The final of 20 years ago is far from the minds of the two squads of players who prepare for Sunday’s encounter,” Downey wrote. “Nor is either side concerned with critics’ comments over the standard of the 1987 championship, nor the special pleading that they are obliged to redeem the game’s tarnished image.”

That year’s final marked the beginning of a four-year rivalry, in which the Meath and Cork players habitually assaulted each other in a series of games which saw private hatreds played out in a public arena. It was a dark and ugly rivalry. Both teams were ravenous for success and would stop at nothing to get it: this was the period of liberation just after the demise of the great Kerry team.

Two years earlier, Kerry and Monaghan met in the 1985 All-Ireland semi-final. Pat Spillane played that day. It was a novel pairing and yet it attracted a crowd of just 21,746 people.

Isn’t it peculiar now to think that here were the gods of the modern game playing brand new Ulster champions and nobody was bothered going? Maybe it was because they remembered the 1979 semi-final between the teams, when poor old Monaghan shipped a 5-14 to 0-7 hammering against the Kingdom (But the Monaghan men played in the spirit of the game!).

It has to be presumed that most of the attendance came from Kavanagh country in 1985. Nobody from Kerry or no neutrals could be bothered to go and see the greats, Pat! If the game that Spillane and Kerry espoused was so irresistible, then how come they weren’t pouring through the turnstiles?

The answer, surely, is that by then, everyone was sick of Kerry; sick of their winning, sick of seeing the same old faces and listening to the same old schtick. Watching the same team win becomes monotonous. All those Kerry versus Dublin games – the Kingdom and the Power – was fine if you came from those two counties. But it didn’t do much for Gaelic football around the country.

In the 1990s came the Ulster resurgence. Joe Brolly played on a tough and talented Derry team, whose lone All-Ireland success in 1993 revolved around that year’s Ulster final against Donegal, the All-Ireland champions of the previous year. The teams disliked one another and it was a horrible game. And yes, it was played in a torrential downpour but you could have played it in Hawaii and the atmosphere would still have been poisonous.

You remember it, Joe. You remember the score. Look away because the sight of it might offend you these days. It was 0-8 to 0-6, the same as the score last Sunday. Did you worry about the entertainment value or the romance of the game that night Joe? Doubtful.

So back to Dublin and Donegal last Sunday. Dublin’s big misfortune was the sending off of Diarmuid Connolly and the incident was replayed and analysed at length.

Donegal’s big misfortune was losing Karl Lacey. The Four Masters man is Donegal’s most important player. It was notable that Barry Cahill’s late 32nd-minute hit on Lacey was not replayed on the Sunday Game. It was notable that during the live broadcast, commentator Ger Canning and analyst Kevin McStay seemed determined to talk about anything other than the challenge as Lacey lay flat on his back.

It was interesting also that RTÉ made prominent use of a statistics icon noting (with due incredulity) the number of handpasses Donegal used in comparison to Dublin. And on the handpass issue, three of the Kerry goals in the celebrated Dublin-Kerry 1978 All-Ireland final were scored with the hands. It must make Pat Spillane ill to think about them now, given his aversion to that passing method.

And it was interesting that several of the frees Dublin were awarded were described on television as “handy”. Does that mean that the referee whistled a few soft ones? If so, why not come out and say it? For there seemed to be no shyness about calling the Donegal team and tactics exactly as they saw it and the studio stars used language that must have stung the ears of those watching up in the Inishowen Peninsula.

The weird thing is that Spillane, O’Rourke and Brolly seemed sort of . . . aroused after the match. What other match has provoked the Kerry man to reference Marlon Brando and Apocalyspe Now ? Distasteful as they found the spectacle, it moved them to the use of flamboyant and excited language.

Maybe that was why Spillane felt emboldened enough to use terms like “Shi’ite football” and to bring in The Hague and war crimes. How they must have laughed out in Srebrenica at that one. You can imagine the reaction if a term like that was ever applied to an establishment GAA county like Dublin, Kerry or Cork or to the hurling strongholds of Kilkenny or Tipperary. There would be outrage. But a nothing county like Donegal –“up there” as it is often referred to – can shut up and take it. God knows what they would have said if Donegal had dared to actually win the game.

If Spillane and the others are going to take the grand-a-twist or whatever the Sunday Game fee is nowadays, they have to be more aware of their influence. So too should their employers.

They have to be aware of just how stinging those comments sound to the television licence-holders watching televisions in the bars of Glenties or Kilcar. They need to be aware of the weight of their reputations and of the weight that their words carry; they set the tone for the hysterical lynching that followed in the days afterwards.

There are people in Donegal dismayed by the way the team played against Dublin and who would dearly wish that the players might have expressed themselves a bit more openly when they game was in the balance.

However, they were entitled to set up that way. In most other field games in the world, from association football to baseball, the clean sheet or the shut-out is an acceptable – and lauded element – of the game. The Donegal team was guilty of nothing more than failing to enhance a clever and ferociously tough defensive strategy with a bit more attacking imagination.

They committed 22 fouls in the game – handy ones included. They scored two fewer points than Dublin. That was it. That failure did not merit the hostility and disdain which dripped from the state broadcaster on Sunday evening.

Anyhow, the Establishment has the All-Ireland final that it craved. The Kingdom and the Power, Alive-Alive-Oh and all of that. Meantime, the television stars might want to consider how they throw their words around.

If they do meet McGuinness and have the courage to look him in the eye, they will probably find the Glenties man will give them all the time in the world. They might learn from him something about that phrase which they like to confer on the gilded sons from the Establishment counties in the Montrose studio.

A bit of? What is it again? Oh, yeah.

Class.

Het-Field

Lemlin wrote: »

I think this article sums up the RTE lads and their memories of when they played perfectly:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=74169985

That is an alternative opinion.

BonnieSituation

Some things never change...

skywanderer

Pat Spillane, Tomas O'Se and Dara O'Cinneide would be the idea lineout for the Sunday Game with Michael Lyster presenting.

BonnieSituation

skywanderer wrote: »

Pat Spillane, Tomas O'Se and Dara O'Cinneide would be the idea lineout for the Sunday Game with Michael Lyster presenting.

That would be so self righteous, Montrose would implode in on itself.

ahlookit

skywanderer wrote: »

Pat Spillane, Tomas O'Se and Dara O'Cinneide would be the idea lineout for the Sunday Game with Michael Lyster presenting.

Are you from kerry by any chance?

O Cinneide as host would be a great leap forward. He's very good on TG4. Time for Pateen to take a back seat at this stage.

seligehgit

ahlookit wrote: »

Are you from kerry by any chance?

O Cinneide as host would be a great leap forward. He's very good on TG4. Time for Pateen to take a back seat at this stage.

Yes he is excellent and Seo Spoirt is a very good show.

kilns

Maybe the Sunday Game evening gig. Des Cahill has to be one of the worst sports presenters I have ever seen.

I cringe when ever guys like Martin Carney are co commentator on games.

Radio provides much better analysts than the TV, Anthony Moyles being one of the best actually

ProudDUB

skywanderer wrote: »

Pat Spillane, Tomas O'Se and Dara O'Cinneide would be the idea lineout for the Sunday Game with Michael Lyster presenting.

Yeah, 3 Kerry lads. What could possibly go wrong, with pundits from just one county getting their spake in? Jesus wept !

danganabu

kilns wrote: »

Maybe the Sunday Game evening gig. Des Cahill has to be one of the worst sports presenters I have ever seen.

I cringe when ever guys like Martin Carney are co commentator on games.

Radio provides much better analysts than the TV, Anthony Moyles being one of the best actually

The standard of co-commentators is a far bigger issue tbh, Martin Carney and Tommy Carr are definitely having a competition to see who can put me in the grave first. Duignan in the hurling is streets ahead of them.

BPKS

James Horan (if he wasnt on Sky), Ciaran Whelan and Dara Cinneide would be a good line-up for the Sunday Game Live with Tomas, Dessie Dolan and Peter Canavan (if he wasnt on Sky) for the Sunday Game highlights show.

Dirty Dingus McGee

James Horan is excellent and McGuinness (although he's not on Sky anymore) is top class aswell.

Personally I like Senan Connell as he seems like a decent sort of fella and has great enthusiasm for the sport.


There is only so much you can listen to the same old opinions over and over again and I don't think any of them are that great anymore (if they ever were) also they've never been involved in the intercounty game this century and clearly cannot see things from the perspective of how players and managers see things these days as opposed to how they beleive they should see things.

I always think it makes for better punditry when the pundits in all sports actually try to understand what teams are trying to do than just lecturing them and telling them what they should do which RTE's main pundits ae guilty of at times.

I think Brolly , Spillane and O'Rourke need to be put out to pasture as anyone on TV for too long eventually becomes stale and repetitive.

Also I'd get rid of Des Cahill and move Eoin McDevitt to the nighttime programme.

ahlookit

I was hoping Sky and Newstalk would force RTE to raise their game with their commentary and analysis. Sadly not. Maybe its that Ryle Nugent doesn't give a damn about GAA coverage, maybe its just laziness.

rossie1977

When people come to terms with the fact that sports analysis on rte be it soccer, gaa, rugby etc is done for entertainment and ratings purposes then we will be all the better for it

doc_17

Dessie Dolan isn't that good as an analyst co-commentating on radio or tv but he is better on TSG highlights show I feel. Whelan is overrated although he does in fairness try to actually analyse the game. The way he jumped on the Tiernan McCann bandwagon last tear revealed a bit of personal dislike for Tyrone that he should not be showing on tv. Other players did some things that are out of order but TSG panel jumped on a young fella there. Out of order.

If someone could stop Tomas saying "ah look I dunno, shur I suppose" at the start of his answers he'd be the best about.

seligehgit

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

James Horan is excellent and McGuinness (although he's not on Sky anymore) is top class aswell.

Personally I like Senan Connell as he seems like a decent sort of fella and has great enthusiasm for the sport.


There is only so much you can listen to the same old opinions over and over again and I don't think any of them are that great anymore (if they ever were) also they've never been involved in the intercounty game this century and clearly cannot see things from the perspective of how players and managers see things these days as opposed to how they beleive they should see things.

I always think it makes for better punditry when the pundits in all sports actually try to understand what teams are trying to do than just lecturing them and telling them what they should do which RTE's main pundits ae guilty of at times.

I think Brolly , Spillane and O'Rourke need to be put out to pasture as anyone on TV for too long eventually becomes stale and repetitive.

Also I'd get rid of Des Cahill and move Eoin McDevitt to the nighttime programme.

I must concur...James Horan and Jim McGuinness are excellent,Peter Canavan is pretty good.Retain Ciaran Whelan and Tomas O Se.Re the old veterans I'd retain Colm O Rourke and Joe Brolly.Dara O Cinneide would a great addition to any Sunday Game panel.

Some of the lads on Seo Spoirt,in particular Gary Brennan would be worthy of an opportunity to impress.

BonnieSituation

seligehgit wrote: »

I must concur...James Horan and Jim McGuinness are excellent,Peter Canavan is pretty good.Retain Ciaran Whelan and Tomas O Se.Re the old veterans I'd retain Colm O Rourke and Joe Brolly.Dara O Cinneide would a great addition to any Sunday Game panel.

Some of the lads on Seo Spoirt,in particular Gary Brennan would be worthy of an opportunity to impress.

I'd get rid of O'Rourke before Spillane and lord knows I can't stand Spillane.

Horan, Tomás, Canavan and McGuinness are brilliant. Which is why I watch Sky were possible.

PressRun

doc_17 wrote: »

Dessie Dolan isn't that good as an analyst co-commentating on radio or tv but he is better on TSG highlights show I feel. Whelan is overrated although he does in fairness try to actually analyse the game. The way he jumped on the Tiernan McCann bandwagon last tear revealed a bit of personal dislike for Tyrone that he should not be showing on tv. Other players did some things that are out of order but TSG panel jumped on a young fella there. Out of order.

If someone could stop Tomas saying "ah look I dunno, shur I suppose" at the start of his answers he'd be the best about.

I wasn't a huge fan of how Ciaran Whelan and The Sunday Game in general handled the whole Tiernan McCann fiasco last year. The treatment McCann got bordered on a bit of a witch-hunt. Though to be fair to Whelan, I think he did realise he made a bit of a mistake and I think it's good to have younger pundits who have more up to date knowledge of the game of how the game is played today. I know a couple of people who think he's a bit meh, but I like Dessie Dolan for the same reason. I think Dolan is good at sticking to the football and keeping personal stuff out of it as well. Couldn't really imagine him having a go at someone's character in the way that Brolly does.

Speaking of which, I can't stand Brolly. I just think he's incredibly unprofessional.

ciarriaithuaidh

danganabu wrote: »

The standard of co-commentators is a far bigger issue tbh, Martin Carney and Tommy Carr are definitely having a competition to see who can put me in the grave first. Duignan in the hurling is streets ahead of them.

Carney must be related to (or have dirt on) someone in RTE. It's the only logical answer to why he has been kept this long, constantly spouting unmerciful nonsense, interspersed every 10 seconds with "it must be said" and "in all fairness". No exaggeration, if he's on for a game I try to get the radio commentary or something. For some reason, RTE almost without fail, put him as co-commentator when Mayo or Donegal are playing aswell, which is even worse as he is unable to contain his bias.
Carr, equally as bad at times. Doesn't annoy me AS much as Carney.

Jayop

Ship them all out and get the sky crew in. Happy days.