Counting Unqualified Maths Teachers

dambarude

I came across this snippet in the Irish Independent today:

Despite the urgency of tackling the maths crisis, Mr Quinn suggested to the Teaching Council last April that it "might wish to advise" his department on "teacher supply".

But the council -- the teaching watchdog -- has yet to begin the investigation to establish the number of unqualified maths teachers.

And it claims it does not have the resources to undertake such a study and will have to outsource the work.

Link.

More evidence of the Teaching Council's uselessness. Hasn't it got millions of euros (of teacher's money) lying in a bank account? I'm guessing this would be a (relatively) straightforward thing to do. Maybe while it's at it it can advise him on the numbers in B.Eds, H.Dips and PGDEs all over the country.

I know there's an ongoing thread here on gaining extra maths qualifications in order to be qualified to teach it, but what do you think of Science or Business graduates teaching Maths? It was very common in my own school when I was there (I think there was only 1/2 teachers who had Maths in their degree). Is it acceptable, or is it really one of the reasons that students aren't succeeding in Maths (supposedly)?

delta_bravo

"doesnt have the resources".

What a load of rubbish. They make a profit each year and have millions in reserve for future expenses. They should get up off their arse, hire some staff and get to the bottom of this.

loveroflight

(I think there was only 1/2 teachers who had Maths in their degree). Is it acceptable, or is it really one of the reasons that students aren't succeeding in Maths (supposedly)?[/QUOTE]

I think this is the core of the problem.

Too many teachers teach one Maths class per year to fill up their hours. They don't have the interest or enough knowledge in the subject so it comes across to the students as a chore.

If you teach Maths almost exclusively you can build up a wealth of knowledge and teaching expertise that can make it come across as an easy and enjoyable subject to learn. Project Maths is a somewhat useful step forward but it does not solve the problems with Maths by a long shot.

Lord TSC

One would imagine if the figures weren't as bad as was being predicted, they'd issue them pretty quick. Whats worrying is I don't believe they don't have the resources, which means the numbers are as bad or worse than has been repoted in the paper...

Delphi91

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but if I remember correctly the teaching council assesses your qualifications and then tells you what you're qualified to teach. The council doesn't know what subjects you are ACTUALLY teaching.

So, it should be in a position to inform the minister how many teachers are qualified to teach maths, but not necessarily how many teachers teaching maths are unqualified.

dambarude

I heard Áine Lawlor (Head of the TC) on the News at One after that.

She said that they know how many people are *registered* to teach Maths, but because some of those may be retired, and some mightn't have Maths hours, they can't say how many unqualified people are actually teaching it. 4000 and something was the figure she gave.

Interestingly enough she said that the Council is looking into the numbers being trained to teach in the various colleges, and that they've hired some academic to do it. I don't hold much hope, but it'd be great if something actually came of the review.

mrboswell

Yes the teaching council are literally a waste of money.
As a teacher who is undergoing the maths top up to become officially registered, I still don't believe that having every single teacher of maths registered will solve the problem.

We all know, or have experienced , qualified teachers that are just not good at their job - its the same in any industry.

To be honest a lot of students today do not have the same work ethic as in the past. Combine this with primary teachers allowing students to use calculators, among other things, is leading to current problems.

I'm not saying that these are the only reasons, but the main reasons that I have concluded from my experiences.

dambarude

mrboswell wrote: »

Combine this with primary teachers allowing students to use calculators, among other things, is leading to current problems.

The primary curriculum and colleges of education actively recommend it from fourth class on, so I wouldn't lay the blame at the teachers' door.

mrboswell

I'm not having a go at primary teachers - its just that the curriculum is overloaded.

For square roots, decimals, rounding etc. - use the calculator, fine.

Do you think it is ok to allow say 1st year students to use a calculator to get the answer to simple tables - e.g. 6 x12 ?

I don't care who says to allow them to use calculators - for simple tables in my class, no way.

2 x 2 doesn't catch anyone out, but maybe 12 x 9 and the calculator is straight out. They don't even want to think about its examples such as this that is stopping the development of a real work ethic in students.

dambarude

mrboswell wrote: »

Do you think it is ok to allow say 1st year students to use a calculator to get the answer to simple tables - e.g. 6 x12 ?

No, and no primary teacher would either. Which is exactly why you do this:

mrboswell wrote: »

I don't care who says to allow them to use calculators - for simple tables in my class, no way.

i.e. Don't allow it.

Children still learn all of their times tables. Calculators are meant to be used in primary for working with large numbers and for quickly doing more complicated operations (e.g. dividing decimals). These are still done by hand/mentally as well.

Delphi91

I'm not blaming Primary teachers, but I think a certain element of the problem lies with the Primary school curriculum.

Many students arrive in my secondary school without a basic understanding of maths, no knowledge of tables, the inability to do mental arithmetic, approximate answers, perform long division, etc.

The day that calculators were introduced into primary schools was a bad day. Students should not be allowed to use calculators in primary school. What's more important - the right answer or an understanding of maths? In my book it is the later.

Richard Feynman (physicist) has a very good story in the first part of his autobiography where he is challenged to a calculating contest between himself and an abacus salesman. Initially the abacus guy gets the problems out faster, but as the problems become more difficult, Feynman gets the answers out quicker in his head. He has a very interesting comment to make at the end of the contest - "The abacus guy knows how to use the abacus, but I know about numbers".

That's what's lacking in students today. Once a basic foundation exists, you can build on top of it. If the foundation is weak, then it won't support the layers above.

highly1111

Guys I'm having a whole different issue with the TC which I'm not going to go into here. However I had a meeting with their deputy director who informed me that they cannot employ extra staff as they are bound under the public sector moratorium.

That's their line anyway.

highly1111

Guys I'm having a whole different issue with the TC which I'm not going to go into here. However I had a meeting with their deputy director who informed me that they cannot employ extra staff as they are bound under the public sector moratorium.

That's their line anyway.

raytray

If you look at the results for mathematics, chemistry, biology, physics and chemistry + physics you can see that the percentage failure rate is similar across the board. I would imagine that most people who teach the science subjects above are qualified to teach them yet they still have a high failure rate. I don't think it helps the situation that most maths teachers are not qualified but I think that the high failure rate in these subjects is because they are difficult, concepts can be quite sophisticated for the age group in question, they cannot relate the material to real life so it becomes abstract and boring, and they take a lot of hard work and dedication to get a good grade- it is not possible to get away with waffling in the above subjects.(http://www.examinations.ie/statistics/statistics_2011/ProvisionalResultsLC2011NationalStatsmorethan10candidates.pdf).
Yes over 4000 students failed maths. I don't know why this is such a surprise considering that is a very difficult subject and it is compulsory. Some people just are not mathematically minded and even the best maths teacher in the world couldnt get them their 'pass'. I agree with the fact that maths teachers should be suitably qualified but I think that it is a bit ridiculous to blame it just on teachers qualifications. Go back and look at the hundreds of years of the history and philosophy of maths education and it has been the same story.
Even though I hate ancedotal evidence I will say this. For my JC I had a science teacher as an honours maths teacher and over half the class got an A. She was absolutely fantastic even though she was not qualified. For LC I had a qualified maths teacher and they were useless.

Rosita

I'm surprised that they expect the Teaching Council to provide this information. Think about it. The TC they can presumably easily provide the figure for the number of people who are registered to teach Maths. By definition they would not have a record of unqualified Maths teachers as they are not registered to teach the subject.

But if the Irish Independent is so concerned this is a way around the issue. The Irish Independent stated a couple of weeks back that 48% of Maths teachers do not have a Maths qualification. That is a very precise figure which everyone seems to have accepted is accurate, and can only have been the result of a very extensive exhaustive survey. Why doesn't the Independent simply make their survey of the nation's Maths teachers available to the Minister?

Delphi91

raytray wrote: »

...Even though I hate ancedotal evidence I will say this. For my JC I had a science teacher as an honours maths teacher and over half the class got an A. She was absolutely fantastic even though she was not qualified...

The chances are that she was. If she was a qualified science teacher then it's almost certain that she took maths in universtity, at least in 1st year. Unless things have changed, having maths as a first year subject allows yoiu to teach it to Hons JC level. Having it to degree level allows you to teach it to Hons LC level.

Delphi91

Rosita wrote: »

I'm surprised that they expect the Teaching Council to provide this information. Think about it. The TC they can presumably easily provide the figure for the number of people who are registered to teach Maths. By definition they would not have a record of unqualified Maths teachers as they are not registered to teach the subject.

My point exactly.

But if the Irish Independent is so concerned this is a way around the issue. The Irish Independent stated a couple of weeks back that 48% of Maths teachers do not have a Maths qualification. That is a very precise figure which everyone seems to have accepted is accurate, and can only have been the result of a very extensive exhaustive survey. Why doesn't the Independent simply make their survey of the nation's Maths teachers available to the Minister?

I would love to know how this statistic was arrived at? I doubt that it was got by contacting schools - I know that we weren't contacted. The only people who might be able to give that kind of information would be the DES (with a bit of effort, it would be possible to glean it from the September Returns), in which case, the Minster is already sitting on the information!!

whiteandlight

Delphi91 wrote: »

Rosita wrote: »

I'm surprised that they expect the Teaching Council to provide this information. Think about it. The TC they can presumably easily provide the figure for the number of people who are registered to teach Maths. By definition they would not have a record of unqualified Maths teachers as they are not registered to teach the subject.

In defence of the independent (and I don't really ever defend them!) it has been 5 months. I have emailed Ruairi Quinn to this effect but all that would have been required was a form/email to be sent to every principal requesting the names and teaching council numbers of the teachers in the school teaching any maths. It could even be done online to avoid data input requirements. Then the two lists just needed to be compared. It should not take 5 months!

mrboswell

Delphi91 wrote: »

Unless things have changed, having maths as a first year subject allows yoiu to teach it to Hons JC level. Having it to degree level allows you to teach it to Hons LC level.

It appears that they have - the TC's line is that you are either qualified or you are not, for every level.

rainbowtrout

raytray wrote: »

If you look at the results for mathematics, chemistry, biology, physics and chemistry + physics you can see that the percentage failure rate is similar across the board. I would imagine that most people who teach the science subjects above are qualified to teach them yet they still have a high failure rate. I don't think it helps the situation that most maths teachers are not qualified but I think that the high failure rate in these subjects is because they are difficult, concepts can be quite sophisticated for the age group in question, they cannot relate the material to real life so it becomes abstract and boring, and they take a lot of hard work and dedication to get a good grade- it is not possible to get away with waffling in the above subjects.(http://www.examinations.ie/statistics/statistics_2011/ProvisionalResultsLC2011NationalStatsmorethan10candidates.pdf).
Yes over 4000 students failed maths. I don't know why this is such a surprise considering that is a very difficult subject and it is compulsory. Some people just are not mathematically minded and even the best maths teacher in the world couldnt get them their 'pass'. I agree with the fact that maths teachers should be suitably qualified but I think that it is a bit ridiculous to blame it just on teachers qualifications. Go back and look at the hundreds of years of the history and philosophy of maths education and it has been the same story.
Even though I hate ancedotal evidence I will say this. For my JC I had a science teacher as an honours maths teacher and over half the class got an A. She was absolutely fantastic even though she was not qualified. For LC I had a qualified maths teacher and they were useless.

I don't agree. I think there will always be some students who will struggle with maths, same as any other subject. But over the years the work ethic among students has been eroded as quicker ways of finding the answers are preferred. This has a knock on effect on subjects such as maths and science where students can't understand or learn the complicated stuff because they don't know or haven't practiced the basics.

I did the Junior Cert in 1994 and we were not allowed use calculators in maths. I've said this on the odd occasion in class and students are shocked. They can't even begin to contemplate the idea of sitting a maths exam without a calculator to get them through it. The idea of working out problems on paper with the use of log tables is completely alien to them. I'm not anti-technology but the fact that students don't have to engage their brains or put any effort into learning concerns me. I see students regularly in chemistry who are amazed that I've worked out mathematical calculations in my head or on the board faster than they have on their calculators. They don't understand how this is possible, simply because they've never had to do it. It doesn't even occur to them to try and add or multiply in their heads.

It's sad to see students reach for the calculator if you are working your way through a solution and call out '9 x 8' - something that they should have learned in third class.

The way I see it, all of this use to be basic knowledge all students had. Much of it was rote learned like times tables, but it was stuff you didn't have to think about in second level and because it came to you automatically you could focus on the greater complexities in a mathematical problem. Now because so many students need calculators to do this stuff, complex stuff is not the concern, they have to work out how to do the basics first - stuff they should be able to do without thinking.

The concepts aren't any different from what they were 10 or 20 years ago, and intelligence levels aren't all that different either, it's just that students are learning differently but for science and maths it's not for the better.

I was looking at some Project Maths papers recently. Leaving Cert Higher Level and I noticed a number of geometric proofs on them. (E.g.: The angle at the centre of a circle standing on a given arc is twice the angle at any point of the circle standing on the same arc). I was amazed to see that this was now Higher Level material because I had to know all of those proofs for my Junior Cert 17 years ago and we didn't have any difficulty with them back then, so why are they more difficult to understand now, that they have to be put on what is considered to be one of the most difficult exams in the Leaving Cert?

boogle

I think these media reports on unqualified Maths teachers overlooks one simple fact. There are not enough qualified Maths teachers working currently to fill demand. Maths graduates have attractive prospects in the private sector (or at least they used to!) so not enough of them went into teaching. It's not like principals have the choice to hire an unqualified or a qualified person and choose the unqualified one. Most of the time they don't really have a choice.

TheDriver

problem is that people who have done science or business with a lot of maths content but not enough for registering are still perfectly able to teach a lot of maths. Its the same with biology teachers teaching ag science, chemistry teacher teaching physics, history teacher teaching cspe, the list goes on.
The problem comes from people who are clearly no way capable at maths at all.
The 4000 failing could be easily fixed: change the bell curve! Other problem which we find year on year is people who won't accept teachers advice about what level they should do, the amount of people doing OL who should be doing FL but their parents won't let them drop and this will get a lot lot worse with the bonus points, lot of people will get E in HL next year hanging on for dear life and no teacher in the world will pull them out of that

RealJohn

TheDriver wrote: »

Other problem which we find year on year is people who won't accept teachers advice about what level they should do, the amount of people doing OL who should be doing FL but their parents won't let them drop and this will get a lot lot worse with the bonus points, lot of people will get E in HL next year hanging on for dear life and no teacher in the world will pull them out of that

I can't believe they're giving the bonus points for Ds. This is a recipe for disaster. A D isn't an honour anyway. If you're doing higher level you should be getting a C or you haven't gotten an honour so you shouldn't be getting any bonus points for doing higher level. That way people who will struggle to pass won't be incentivised to try for something they probably won't acheive. The people who are on the borderline between Cs and Ds will still pass so no harm done if they stay for the extra points and only get a D. I really don't understand why they'd give the points for Ds too. That helps nobody.

I think the main reason for students' poor performance in maths is, as has already been suggested, that they don't know the basics well enough when they leave primary school. I absolutely agree that primary school students should not be allowed to use calculators. Nothing you do in primary school requires a calculator. We've brought in a policy in our school that first years aren't allowed to use calculators in maths so they get some practice working with figures. We haven't been doing it for long enough to see if it's getting long-term results yet but I'm fully confident that it will.
Students need to come out of primary school with basic maths, english and Irish and everything else is a bonus. It's equally appalling that students can go through 8 years of primary school learning Irish and still get to secondary school without being able to string a few sentences together but that's off topic so I'll say no more, other than that I think it's just another sign of what's wrong with the primary school curriculum in general.

Fully qualified maths teachers would certainly improve the situation but, as has also been pointed out, a teacher qualified in chemistry, physics, accountancy and probably various other fields are generally quite capable of doing a good job of teaching maths so it's not all about being qualified.

I know in my school, part of our problem is that we're allocated too few teachers. We have only two maths teachers for 5th year and 6th year so instead of having a higher level class, an ordinary level class and a foundation level class, we've had to have a class with the higher level students and foundation level students together and one ordinary level class or classes in which the higher level students are in with the better ordinary level students (so the teacher still has two classes to teach essentially) and the weaker ordinary level students are in with the foundation level students. This sort of situation is no help and I imagine it's not uncommon in smaller schools. It was the case in the last school I worked in too (which was also a small school but this was during the boom and we still didn't have the allocation for three leaving cert maths classes).

Changing the course is not the answer. Project maths is just a case of artificially raising the marks by making the course easier. I've yet to meet a teacher who thinks that it's the right way to go. Personally, I think it's a good idea in theory but it's being executed very badly, both in the overall sense and in the way it's being phased in.

If the government really want to improve the results in maths and science they need to allocate teachers specifically for those subjects so that smaller schools don't have to tell their students that there aren't enough of them looking to do a certain subject or level to provide for them. In my school, we had four students who wanted to do chemistry this year out of a 5th year group of 33. We couldn't justify putting on a chemistry class for just four students but if we could have, chances are all four of those students would have done well as they were actually interested and would have benefitted from being in such a small class. All four students are now doing chemistry externally but obviously, since they now have 8 subjects this will impact both on their marks in chemistry and in their other subjects (they're all currently doing higher level maths too but with the extra subject, it's hard to see them lasting). How is this sensible?
If the government really wants to make a difference they need to make it possible for schools to facilitate smaller numbers of students doing science and higher level maths, not hinder them.

awny

boogle wrote: »

I think these media reports on unqualified Maths teachers overlooks one simple fact. There are not enough qualified Maths teachers working currently to fill demand. Maths graduates have attractive prospects in the private sector (or at least they used to!) so not enough of them went into teaching. It's not like principals have the choice to hire an unqualified or a qualified person and choose the unqualified one. Most of the time they don't really have a choice.

Not true.... im a qualified maths teacher and most of my class from the dip cant get jobs even tho they are fully qualified to teach maths.... most had to go to england for work...

mrboswell

Do your friends from the dip have single honours Degrees in maths? Due to cuts, many jobs are advertised with other subjects. That could be where your friends are missing out.

There were a lot of maths jobs advertised over the summer, but with other subjects.

The long story short is that someone qualified to teach maths, but only maths, is possibly not that desirable to schools that need to have maths teachers with a versatility of subjects due to cut backs..

TheDriver

remember teaching only maths is very difficult to get a full timetable so single maths is not at all desirable, at all!

awny

mrboswell wrote: »

Do your friends from the dip have single honours Degrees in maths? Due to cuts, many jobs are advertised with other subjects. That could be where your friends are missing out.

There were a lot of maths jobs advertised over the summer, but with other subjects.

The long story short is that someone qualified to teach maths, but only maths, is possibly not that desirable to schools that need to have maths teachers with a versatility of subjects due to cut backs..

Mr Boswell, most of my class had double jpint honours BAs so they had 2 subjects. I myself have a BSc in Mathematical Sciences and have a full timetable of just teaching maths.

rainbowtrout

awny wrote: »

Mr Boswell, most of my class had double jpint honours BAs so they had 2 subjects. I myself have a BSc in Mathematical Sciences and have a full timetable of just teaching maths.

It is possible, but it wouldn't be the norm. The school I work in has about 400 students which would be average enough. If you have even 1 class group in each year that's about 14 hours a week. Most schools have maths classes blocked from at least second year onwards. There are about 7 qualified maths teachers on staff including me ( I currently have no maths) and all of the rest have maths with another subject on their timetable.

whiteandlight

In case anyone is interested I got a response from Ruairi Quinns office. I asked two questions in the email: first at what stage is the collection of this information at and what the minister is doing to address the situation in the meantime.
The response answered neither question properly. The reply consisted of a reference to the circular issued to schools requiring that they search for and hire qualified teachers ahead of unqualified.
I replied asking the two questions again and pointed out that the above circular does not relate to the collection of the information and only address new employees and has does not refer to teachers in permanent positions. This could go on for a while. It just confirms to me that polititicians cannot answer a straight question!

MarionMcg

Delphi91 wrote: »

Unless things have changed, having maths as a first year subject allows yoiu to teach it to Hons JC level. Having it to degree level allows you to teach it to Hons LC level.

When I orignally registered I emailed the TC to ask if I was registered to teach my 1st Year subjects. They replied that I was only registered to teach my degree subjects. The practice of employing teachers to teach 1st year degree subjects is frowned upon but continues because schools prefer to give available hours to existing staff.

I'd like to point out that I have an honours BA degree with honours mathematics as one of my final year subjects. I have only had two interviews this summer and I'm looking into jobs in England. I was told last year that I could get a full time permanent position overnight in England because of my degree.