Proposed legislation on child protection...

HellFireClub

Something just occurred to me this morning while listening to NewsTalk on the way into work...

This proposed legislation that is currently being prepared, to provide for the protection of children and that will obviously provide for the mandatory reporting of all alleged instances of child abuse.

Just leaving aside for a moment the dispute between the church and the state that is emerging, where the church are seeking an exemption of some sort to accommodate their notional feelings on the protection of children, just imagine that it's a normal sunny day and you are walking through the city centre, down O' Connell Street, Henry Street or Talbot Street and you see a drug addict mother sitting in an alleyway off Talbot Street injecting herself with heroin, with her 2 year old child in the buggy beside her looking at this pitiful scene.

I'm just wondering, if you observed such a situation, and you did not intervene and report what you saw to the Gardai, would you be guilty of a crime that could carry a sentence of up to 5 years imprisionment???

ResearchWill

HellFireClub wrote: »

Something just occurred to me this morning while listening to NewsTalk on the way into work...

This proposed legislation that is currently being prepared, to provide for the protection of children and that will obviously provide for the mandatory reporting of all alleged instances of child abuse.

Just leaving aside for a moment the dispute between the church and the state that is emerging, where the church are seeking an exemption of some sort to accommodate their notional feelings on the protection of children, just imagine that it's a normal sunny day and you are walking through the city centre, down O' Connell Street, Henry Street or Talbot Street and you see a drug addict mother sitting in an alleyway off Talbot Street injecting herself with heroin, with her 2 year old child in the buggy beside her looking at this pitiful scene.

I'm just wondering, if you observed such a situation, and you did not intervene and report what you saw to the Gardai, would you be guilty of a crime that could carry a sentence of up to 5 years imprisionment???

The heads of the bill are here http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/child_protectionPR

Head 3. Withholding Information
(1) Subject to subsection (2) and (3), a person shall be guilty of an offence if he or she knows or believes that:
(a) an arrestable offence has been committed against a child or against a vulnerable adult and
(b) he or she has information which might be of material assistance in securing the apprehension, prosecution or conviction of that person for that arrestable offence
and  he or she fails without reasonable excuse to disclose that information as soon as it is practicable to do so to a member of the Garda Síochána.

Arrestable offence is defined as

"arrestable offence" means an offence, including a sexual offence,  which is an offence for which a person of full age and capacity and not previously convicted may be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or more.

A possible offence committed by the mother maybe S 246 Childrens Act 2001
246.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person who has the custody, charge or care of a child wilfully to assault, ill-treat, neglect, abandon or expose the child, or cause or procure or allow the child to be assaulted, ill-treated, neglected, abandoned or exposed, in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to the child's health or seriously to affect his or her wellbeing.

(2) A person found guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding £10,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years or both.

(3) A person may be convicted of an offence under this section—

(a) notwithstanding the death of the child in respect of whom the offence is committed, or

(b) notwithstanding that actual suffering or injury to the health of the child, or the likelihood of such suffering or injury, was obviated by the action of another person.

(4) On the trial of any person for the murder of a child of whom the person has the custody, charge or care, the court or the jury, as the case may be, may, if satisfied that the accused is guilty of an offence under this section in respect of the child, find the accused guilty of that offence.

(5) For the purposes of this section a person shall be deemed to have neglected a child in a manner likely to cause the child unnecessary suffering or injury to his or her health or seriously to affect his or her wellbeing if the person—

(a) fails to provide adequate food, clothing, heating, medical aid or accommodation for the child, or

(b) being unable to provide such food, clothing, heating, medical aid or accommodation, fails to take steps to have it provided under the enactments relating to health, social welfare or housing.

(6) In subsection (1) the reference to a child's health or wellbeing includes a reference to the child's physical, mental or emotional health or wellbeing.

(7) For the purposes of this section ill-treatment of a child includes any frightening, bullying or threatening of the child, and “ill-treat” shall be construed accordingly.

I am not sure a person in the above situation would be guilty, but at the moment we only have the heads of the bill. If any person when the bill is published thinks it goes to far, they should request their TD to request an amendment.

AlekSmart

HellFireClub wrote: »

Something just occurred to me this morning while listening to NewsTalk on the way into work...

This proposed legislation that is currently being prepared, to provide for the protection of children and that will obviously provide for the mandatory reporting of all alleged instances of child abuse.

Just leaving aside for a moment the dispute between the church and the state that is emerging, where the church are seeking an exemption of some sort to accommodate their notional feelings on the protection of children, just imagine that it's a normal sunny day and you are walking through the city centre, down O' Connell Street, Henry Street or Talbot Street and you see a drug addict mother sitting in an alleyway off Talbot Street injecting herself with heroin, with her 2 year old child in the buggy beside her looking at this pitiful scene.

I'm just wondering, if you observed such a situation, and you did not intervene and report what you saw to the Gardai, would you be guilty of a crime that could carry a sentence of up to 5 years imprisionment???

Good question HFC,particularly in the light of the Gardai themselves being very well aware of the cruel treatment of infants which occurs every day in Dublin's Centre.

However,a quick glance at ResearchWill's post confirms my suspicion that,in common with much of modern Irelands legislation,there will be plenty of ambigious or argueable definitions to quantify as a get-out clause.

However I'm somewhat less than convinced that this legislation is well founded in the first place...as it's first outing will probably be against some Grandparent reading their grandchild "The Three Little Pigs"...

(6) In subsection (1) the reference to a child's health or wellbeing includes a reference to the child's physical, mental or emotional health or wellbeing.

(7) For the purposes of this section ill-treatment of a child includes any frightening, bullying or threatening of the child, and “ill-treat” shall be construed accordingly.

Manach

In such a scenario that the OP described, from my limited understanding of existing common law, being prosectuted would be contrary to the "bad Samaritan" rule. ie it is held that not taking positive steps in say helping a drowning person is not illegal (unlike other Jurisdictions such as France where it is.)

ResearchWill

Manach wrote: »

In such a scenario that the OP described, from my limited understanding of existing common law, being prosectuted would be contrary to the "bad Samaritan" rule. ie it is held that not taking positive steps in say helping a drowning person is not illegal (unlike other Jurisdictions such as France where it is.)

And the government wish to Change that situation in relation to crimes against children, the proposed bill is the Criminal Justice (Withholding Information on Crimes against Children and Vulnerable Adults) Bill 2011.

If the bill passes and you know of an adult of sound mind been abused, there will be no law broken by not giving evidence to the Guards, on the other hand of the victim is a child or a vulnerable adult then it may be an offence not to inform.

Mario007

I might be diverting the debate a bit here, but what if you're a psychologist or a doctor and during the course of your work with one of your patients you'd find some evidence of child abuse by that patient. Would you be bound by the oath to respect your patient's privacy and not disclose the info as is standard in the medical profession or would the act impose the duty to inform here as well?

ResearchWill

Mario007 wrote: »

I might be diverting the debate a bit here, but what if you're a psychologist or a doctor and during the course of your work with one of your patients you'd find some evidence of child abuse by that patient. Would you be bound by the oath to respect your patient's privacy and not disclose the info as is standard in the medical profession or would the act impose the duty to inform here as well?

This is one of the reasons I disagree with the proposed bill, one defence as drafted is as follows,

For the purposes of this section "reasonable excuse" may include circumstances where the person in respect of whom the sexual offence concerned was committed makes it known that he or she does not want that offence, or information relating to that offence, to be disclosed.

So will reasonable excuse include professional privilege will a lawyer be in the same position currently with only the heads of the bill published we do not know.