Lakeland terrior- agression after anesthetic

cliona88

Last friday my lakeland terrior was groomed and put under anesthetic. Since then he hasn't been the same dog. He has been shaking ever since, even when he was placed in bed with a hot water bottle. The most frightening part has been the change in his behaviour. My partner (who he is familiar with and normally runs up to with a wagging tail) went outside to see him after his groom and our dog ran towards him and bit him twice. My partner had to kick the dog off of him after he came back the second time. Then today i put him on a lead and a stranger came into the garden and the dog turned again and went into attack mode. It was frightening trying to hold him back.

This dog is not a barker!.

Although, the last time he was put under anesthetic he was in a kennel and a flip also switched. He bore his teeth and tried to tear his way out of the kennel to get at a three year old child. We put that down to the anesthetic.

We spoke to the vet and he said that the dog wasn't given much anesthetic and that most likely it wouldn't cause this aggression.

Has anyone had a similar experience with dogs and anesthetic? We are thinking that maybe he has become territorial and that the anesthetic is merely a coincidence. Everyone who's met the dog has commented on how gentle and quiet he was!

DBB

I would say it's highly likely the sedation has caused this change in his behaviour.
Was he sedated with an oral tablet, or injection by vet? Or was he fully knocked out by the vet for the grooming to happen.
The commonly used sedative is ACP, and it has a well-documented disinhibition effect on animals, causing them to be much more aggressive than they would be normally. So I'm interested to know what was used on him as it might explain what you're seeing now.
For the record, some vets can be remarkably clueless about the behavioural effects of drugs.

teacherspet

My question is why is your dog being sedated to groom him ? Can you not find a groomer who will take their time, maybe with you there and not use sedation.
You said every one said how kind and gentle he was. He is going to have to be groomed for the rest of his life, so do your research and find a good groomer. Even if you have to travel.

Whispered

Agree with the last post. Unless there is a very good reason for it, the dog should not be sedated for grooming.

I've heard of a few dogs who would act up after being sedated, I've been told the reason is they feel vulnerable. It can't be a nice experience when you have no idea what is going on and you can't explain it to them. When sedated in any way, fully asleep or not, the dog should be kept enclosed in a quiet environment until 100% recovered. You know yourself how weak and fuzzy headed you feel after sedation. For a dog the reaction to feeling so vulnerable is often "self preservation". I think they lash out through confusion and fear.

A friend of mine had his rottie was sent home while still recovering form the anaesthetic and spent a few days growling at anything that came near him. He was out of sorts for nearly a week.

I used an anxiety tab on my dog once and the same thing happened, he growled and was pretty aggressive towards me and my husband. He had to be crated until the effects wore off as he was just frantic. He was absolutely terrified of everything as I think he felt like he had lost any control on his body.

I think I'd call the vet and tell them what's been happening, as it seems to be going on for a few days now. Just be sure you're happy enough that the effects will wear off and that you don't need to see the vet again. All you can really do after that is give the dog somewhere quiet and relaxed to lie in and leave him be. Treat him as you would a nervous dog and allow him come to you when ready.

cliona88

thanks for the advice everyone.
we just spoke to the vet and he reckons that the dog has become territorial. he said that it was most probably the fact that he was taken away from home and became overly territorial. the vet said that it wasn't the anesthetic because it was such a small dose (i think in tablet form). I guess we'll never know now what really caused it. the vet recommended that we have him put to sleep as he is a danger to children and strangers in general he has suddenly became unpredictable and the risk seems too great at this stage

mymo

I would be looking into a behaviourist and some socialization and training first.
If you are really worried about him biting put a muzzle on him.
Since you say he was such a good dog before and its been a short time, i wouldn't rush to put him to sleep.

Dogs just don't get territorial overnight like that, there is an underlying issue I would say. Also what you are describing doesn't sound like being territorial, its more aggression. Aggression can be from many things, fear being a big one.

**Vai**

Are u kidding? Of course the vet wont blame the anesthetic, hes the one who gave it to the dog. If my vet told me to put my dog down he would want to have a good medical reason and not just be playing behaviourist for the day, I would not heed the vets advice in this case. I'd be looking to a proper behaviourist if I wasnt confident of doing the job myself. Its obvious the dog has had past problems from what you've said but thats no reason to kill him.

andreac

Are you serious?? I wouldnt listen to that vet, i would def put this down to a link with the anaesthetic.

Dont be in a rush to do anything until the drugs have finally worn off him and see how he is then. If hes still aggressive then look into a behaviourist and go from there.

Putting a dog down when it was under anaesthetic last week and has been behaving like this since is very unfair as it really looks like the drugs could be the factor here.

As someone else sayd, dogs dont just suddenly go aggressive over night.

kylith

I would definitely leave any decision on having a dog put to sleep until I could be completely sure that all traces ofthe anaesthetic had left their system.

If you are still worried about the dog's temperament then, look into a behaviourist or rehoming.

barbiegirl

Do not automatically heed this advice. Our little guy Fargo never growled or anything before his neutering op. After this he started and we put it down to the op but when we mentioned it to the vet he said the dog had "dominance issues". So we got a trainer and she was great but Fargo unfortunately was still uncomfortable with certain situations, particularly being picked up. Anyway in the last 2-3 weeks, 6 months later, we've finally gotten to the bottom of it, he was still sore. We brought him to a different vet last week who put him on anti-biotics and anti-inflamatories and tomorrow he may possibly need an op to explore and make sure that everything is ok, I suspect he defo needs this.
The overall result is that our lovely dog has been in pain for 6 months because the vet knew nothing about behavioual issues in dogs and definitely didn't want to admit a mess up.
Hopefully we'll get him fixed up and then we can start the training all over again.
If you dog was fine before the drugs, accept that there is a huge chance he will be fine again, maybe with a bit of work required.
Best of luck

DBB

cliona88 wrote: »

thanks for the advice everyone.
we just spoke to the vet and he reckons that the dog has become territorial. he said that it was most probably the fact that he was taken away from home and became overly territorial. the vet said that it wasn't the anesthetic because it was such a small dose (i think in tablet form).

OP, this is utter rubbish. Please do not heed this advice unless it's from someone who's qualified to give it. I know one vet in Ireland who is qualified to give behavioural advice, and as she's a she, it's not your vet.
I'm sorry, but he should be ashamed of himself telling you to put your dog to sleep at this stage.
If it was orally administered, it was not an anaesthetic, it was a sedative. And as it was orally administered, it was probably ACP. Please read my above post re the effects of this drug on behaviour. Even a small dose. This is a well-known and documented effect on behaviour which behaviourists are more aware of than vets, though that's changing slowly.
If it was enough to knock your dog out, it was a strong enough dose to potentially affect his behaviour, and your vet is simply wrong to claim otherwise. Indeed, it sounds to me like he's trying to avoid being sued.
I have never, in all my days, known a dog to turn territorial overnight. This is codswallop. If he was a territorial dog, you'd have known it before now.
So please, if your dog is as nice as you say he is, and you have seen that sedation has affected him like this before, please get a behaviourist in, preferably one that's qualified in clinical issues. If you let us know what part of the country you're in, we may be able to send you in the right direction.
I would also stop using that vet. His advice is as ill-considered as it gets, on a topic he knows nowt about.

DBB

I think it may be worthwhile adding further to this thread about how ACP works. ACP is by far and away the most commonly used orally-administered sedative used for procedures such as grooming, fear of fireworks etc.
It's use is strongly advised against by clinical behaviourists because of the effects it has on behaviour, but also because of how it actually works whilst the animal is under sedation. A number of vets are not aware of what I'm going to say here, neither are groomers or owners who use it: if they knew, I think they'd think twice.
Again, this is documented, tried and tested, this information is available to vets if they cared to look it up. Word is spreading, slowly, but I think more owners and groomers need to know!
As I said above, ACP (acepromazine) tends to disinhibit behaviours: so, a dog sedated with ACP who is feeling worried will tend to use a far higher level of aggression to avoid the source of his fear than he would were he "compos mentis". Also, orally administered ACP can be very hit-and-miss as to when it starts to take effect.
However, whilst this is not good, I'll now explain how it actually affects the dog whilst the dog is under it's effects, because this is far more disturbing than the behavioural disinhibition described above. ACP works by preventing voluntary muscle movement, thus preventing the dog from being able to move much.
However...
it does not affect the level of consciousness, in other words, it does not shut the brain down.
Therefore, the dog is perfectly aware of what's being done to him, but he can't do anything about it.
Take a moment to think about how utterly terrifying this must be, much more so as the reason the animal has been sedated was to carry out a scary procedure on him, or stop him from being scared of fireworks. Now, the dog is STILL being groomed/scared of fireworks, but he can take no evasive action.
Result? A dog who is far more frightened the next time around.
ACP should not be used for scary procedures on it's own. The dog should be entirely knocked out, strictly under veterinary supervision, so that the dog is not conscious of what's happening to him. Needless to say, this is expensive, and requires that the groomer goes to the veterinary surgery to clip the dog. There are also implications around knocking dogs many times during his lifetime. However, the cost of this is far less than the cost of using ACP on its own.

As far as a dog who is terrified of being clipped is concerned, I think it's sensible to have him thoroughly clipped out whilst unconscious, then with the help of a good behaviourist, work on dealing with the fear using positive training techniques, so that the dog can eventually be clipped without medication.
Some dogs are simply not safe to clip and do need to be rendered unconscious (many of these dogs are unsafe, because they've been victims of brainless ACP use), but it is well worthwhile teaching these dogs to enjoy being groomed in the longer term.

blacktalons

cliona88 wrote: »

Last friday my lakeland terrior was groomed and put under anesthetic. Since then he hasn't been the same dog. He has been shaking ever since, even when he was placed in bed with a hot water bottle. The most frightening part has been the change in his behaviour. My partner (who he is familiar with and normally runs up to with a wagging tail) went outside to see him after his groom and our dog ran towards him and bit him twice. My partner had to kick the dog off of him after he came back the second time. Then today i put him on a lead and a stranger came into the garden and the dog turned again and went into attack mode. It was frightening trying to hold him back.

This dog is not a barker!.

Although, the last time he was put under anesthetic he was in a kennel and a flip also switched. He bore his teeth and tried to tear his way out of the kennel to get at a three year old child. We put that down to the anesthetic.

We spoke to the vet and he said that the dog wasn't given much anesthetic and that most likely it wouldn't cause this aggression.

Has anyone had a similar experience with dogs and anesthetic? We are thinking that maybe he has become territorial and that the anesthetic is merely a coincidence. Everyone who's met the dog has commented on how gentle and quiet he was!

<snip>

cliona88

Thank you very much for your great advice. We've discussed it as a family and decided to monitor our dog closely for the next few weeks. We're going to keep him in a kennel in the garden and let him out when we can watch him. It's shocking to hear the effects of ACP. When you consider what the tablets actually do, it's not surprising that the dog has acted this way. It was definitely the tablet form that was given to him. All of his behavior is explained after hearing this. The shaking is most probably from the stressful event. The vet said that he was probably cold but the dog had a hot water bottle and blanket around him and still shook violently.

cliona88

blacktalons wrote: »

<snip

Not very helpful advice.
If you want someone to take your advice, you're probably better off abstaining from melodrama and insults.

ISDW

Well done for not listening to a vet who's scared of being sued, and someone who obviously hasn't read the thread. Excellent advice and information from DBB.

Can I ask why the dog was sedated by the kennels previously?

cliona88

The vet asked my dad if the dog should be sedated. He said yes because the dog has a fear of water and thought it would be less traumatic this way. Obviously if we had known how traumatic the experience of ACP is we wouldn't have had this!

ISDW

cliona88 wrote: »

The vet asked my dad if the dog should be sedated. He said yes because the dog has a fear of water and thought it would be less traumatic this way. Obviously if we had known how traumatic the experience of ACP is we wouldn't have had this!

So is it all the same vet practice that kennelled the dog, and groomed him?

cliona88

No. The last time we brought the dog to this vets the same thing happened. He was brought to a different vet in between these times and showed none of these symptoms.

Cherry Blossom

blacktalons wrote: »

<snip>

7 day Ban,

I suggest you read the forum charter if you intend on coming back.

ISDW

cliona88 wrote: »

No. The last time we brought the dog to this vets the same thing happened. He was brought to a different vet in between these times and showed none of these symptoms.

That does sound to me like the vet is the problem, not the dog.

Sorry, I got confused because you said that he was put into kennels and was the same after getting anaesthetic.

Would it be possible to use a different vet from now on? I'm not going to attack vets at all, but obviously they have to learn all about lots of different animals, not just dogs, so whilst they are most definitely medical experts, I have yet to meet one that is a dog behaviour expert (although some do think they are:D) I have heard so many horror stories about ACP, I do think its a shame that this professional isn't willing to keep informed on newer research, we are all constantly learning.

I would most definitely not get the dog put to sleep, but do keep a very, very close eye on him and don't allow him to be put into situations for a while that will make him feel afraid. Because of his experiences recently, he could well do some damage if he felt scared of someone, and you and he could end up in a situation where he would have to be pts.

Best of luck with him, he's lucky to have such a caring owner who is willing to look into things a bit more and not just take the word of an incompetent professional.

**Vai**

cliona88 wrote: »

Thank you very much for your great advice. We've discussed it as a family and decided to monitor our dog closely for the next few weeks. We're going to keep him in a kennel in the garden and let him out when we can watch him. It's shocking to hear the effects of ACP. When you consider what the tablets actually do, it's not surprising that the dog has acted this way. It was definitely the tablet form that was given to him. All of his behavior is explained after hearing this. The shaking is most probably from the stressful event. The vet said that he was probably cold but the dog had a hot water bottle and blanket around him and still shook violently.

Great news OP. Just on the kenneling him unless you can watch him, I'd make sure hes never separated for too long, that could lead to more antisocial behaviour. They feel better on the whole if they have company of some sort. Obviously if you have kids you need to be safe but just said I'd mention it.

cliona88

yeah that's a good point too. we've decided to put him in whenever we're out of the house or when children will be coming through the garden. He'll be running around for the rest of the day with our other black lab and into the house so hopefully he'll be okay. it's definitely anxiety which he has developed. Our labrador is a bit of a bully sometimes when it comes to food. normally when she barks at him eating his food he'll ignore her even though she's three times the size of him! today though he started violently trembling when she barked. it's really upsetting seeing my dog like this but thanks to everyone's great advice we can see how wrong the vet was. at least now we have a clear view of the big picture instead of jumping to conclusions and ending the dogs life.