Recording drums on a limited budget/resources - Mic Suggestions

spiderjazz

I'm looking to record a drum kit on a tight enough budget, mostly to make a good amateur level recording. At the moment, I have a Focusrite Saffire 6 to record, which give me two inputs. It's for a metal band, so I realise that I'll be getting more of an ambient sound than is normal for that style, but I'm looking to get the best results from the gear that I have.

From reading up on recording a drumkit with 2 mics, what I think I'm going to do is:

Input 1: Put 2 condenser mics through a small mixer, balance the signals, and connect this to input one. One of the condensers will be on the kick drum (using a condenser to get the low end), and the other will be used as an overhead mic. I realise there will be frequency overlaps on this track, but hopefully I should be able to do the relevant processing on each end of the frequency scale.

Input 2: Dynamic Mic on the snare.

In terms of the mics, I currently only have a Peavey knockoff of a sm58 (Peavey PVi). I have access to a couple of other dynamics as well, but I don't think they're going to be ideal for the kick and the overheads. Would the following mic be good/suitable as a budget solution for micing the kick and as an overhead mic (using 2 of them separately) http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tbone_sc400_grossmembranmikro.htm

Any other suggestions on how to mic the kit using 2 inputs?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

you are wasting your time to be honest , home drum recording , and particularly metal - is very hard to pull of well without good gear and room setup ( either mix room and track room or both - BEST OFF IN A DEAD ROOM )
and thats using at least 4 mics .
metal is all close miked .

and this is all before taking into account being a good engineer to process it.


but if you insist - you would get results with sm57s all round , and that includes using them as overheads.

omen80

I agree with DaDumTish. You would be much better off in a dead room. I'm not so sure about using a condenser on the kick either.

A good alternative is to use software such as EZ drummer which will give you much better results on your budget. You could use an electronic kit with a MIDI cable, or convert your recorded hits into MIDI notes.

ZV Yoda

DaDumTish wrote: »

you are wasting your time to be honest , home drum recording , and particularly metal - is very hard to pull of well without good gear and room setup ( either mix room and track room or both - BEST OFF IN A DEAD ROOM )
and thats using at least 4 mics .
metal is all close miked .

and this is all before taking into account being a good engineer to process it.


but if you insist - you would get results with sm57s all round , and that includes using them as overheads.

There speaks the voice of reason... and having been though exactly the same learning curve as DaDumTish, I would heartily recommend the mid kit + software route. Failing that, SM57s are your best bet for drums on a budget.

spiderjazz

Thanks for all the replies lads, very helpful.

I actually use Superior Drummer myself for programming drums, but the band want to keep it as natural/real as possible (though for the style/sound they're going for, that's not really the normal done thing). However, the consensus seems to be that I'm not going to get great results by trying to mic it with the equipment that I have.

I now have 2 options that I'm going to look at.

1. There is a midi kit up in the room that they practise in, I have no idea of how it works, if it's any good etc. but I'll check that out during the week, and if that works, I'll get the drummer to record on that, and send the midi data to Superior Drummer.

2. Record the kick and the snare separately, trigger samples with these, and then get him to play the cymbals in a separate recording.

Interestingly enough, I found out another way to trigger samples from a recorded drum track today. Last week I recorded a one take/one mic recording of the drum track, did a bit of processing, sounded okay, nothing amazing. But I take this track and send it to separate channels, and put a gate on it, so that the gate only opens at the peak frequency of whatever drum you want (i.e. the snare was peaking at 500, so whenever there is a peak at 500, the gate opens and sends the signal through then to a drum trigger program after it.) I'm triggering the kick and snare from this track, then highpassing the original at around 500 hz and using that as a cymbal track. Not ideal, but sounds a lot better than before.

Baggio...

Were going to be doing something similar for our band - So this is an interesting thread for me too. But as it's Hard Core Punk were not as picky as you would be for metal. That said, I'm going to build an enclosure for the drums. Consisting of large wood panels that have been insulated to stop the room reverberation.

Software is always a great choice, I'm loving Geist and use it for my 'Drum n Bass' stuff as well as writing Punk and Hardcore. But in the band we have a drummer as well, and I don't think he'd be too happy if we went for a drum machine instead.

spiderjazz

I posted the same question on the Andy Sneap forum and got some answers as well, they might give you some other things to think about.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/equipment/709740-recording-drums-limited-budget-resources-mic-suggestions.html

I'm thinking now of using the ekit for recording snare, toms and kick, and possibly using real cymbals on the kit and micing them. Seems for most metal the the shells are sample replaced/augemented with samples so at least I'd have some bit of a natural sound from the overheads.

GTE

spiderjazz wrote: »

I posted the same question on the Andy Sneap forum and got some answers as well, they might give you some other things to think about.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/equipment/709740-recording-drums-limited-budget-resources-mic-suggestions.html

I'm thinking now of using the ekit for recording snare, toms and kick, and possibly using real cymbals on the kit and micing them. Seems for most metal the the shells are sample replaced/augemented with samples so at least I'd have some bit of a natural sound from the overheads.

Im sorry but I dont have time to read that thread but you just reminded of something that may help you with your limited inputs so Ill post this real quick.

QOTSA used to, maybe still do, record drums in complete separation.

2 overheads with no drums (pillows over the kit for the drummer so he still feels semi ok. I know I cant play with just cymbals. Feels weird)

Then, record the drums. Now, QOTSA may have done this in two main steps, cymbals and drums but with your limited inputs you could do cymbals then kick and snare, and toms after that.

For one song you may have to do 4 or 5 perfect passes.

I would find it an enjoyable experience trying to get around this problem but you need to know what you are doing and be confident in what you are doing.
As a drummer myself I have the confidence since I know what I would be doing both as an engineer and as the performer.
Make sure your drummer is comfortable with what you need to do.

Recap:

First pass:
Cymbals on two overheads, no drums.

Next pass:
Kick and snare

Next pass:
Toms


On the toms, does he have two? That would be handy but for metal he may well have more so maybe try and see if you can use 1 mic per two toms or experiment with condenser overheads to get all the toms on one go.

Now, ill come back here with time to read and find out I totally misread the situation Im sure haha

trackmixstudio

The best way for you to do this is to program the shells using superior drummer then use overhead condenser mics on the kit and record the drummer playing along with the programmed drums and click track. The live overheads will give depth and "real drummer" feel to the programmed tracks.

Option B would be to book a day with me and record on my Sonor S Class and go home with 5-6 amazing sounding metal drum tracks.:D
http://www.facebook.com/trackmixrecordingstudio?sk=app_19507961798

i57dwun4yb1pt8

personally i record using a roland td kit into supeiour drummer 2 samples .
it sounds like me , feels like me , and feels great to play .
personally i think its the way forward for the home producer

i also record a live hi hat and ride instead of ekit ones , miced using sm57s .

i blend these into the mix using reverbs and compession- it gives a way more authentic feel and sound.

for a home setup it creates a superb drum sound .
just choose samples - partic snares that dont sound 'samply'
some of them do , others dont
the ez vintage kit is really good - and the metal kit would blow you away .

then i produce it using DAW compression eq reverbs etc- this is the bit you need to learn about .


most drummers get hung up about -' yeah its not real drums , and id rather use my kit , snare etc . '

i would have been the first one to point out this blasphemy years ago ,
but now i see it as a narrow minded view

your first thought as a drummer should be ' how can i serve this song the best , and sound the best ? '
if it means using an ekit with samples - then dont be afriad of it - do it and sound great
instead of banging up loads of mics into an mbox in a sh1t room and sounding like sh1t.

or playing your sh1t kit in a great studio cos you wont use anything else , and end up sounding llike sh1t

the listener will never know how you got this huge sound , and actually will not even give a fcuk anyway.


another thing - when you record - if you dont have good cymbals - borrow or rent some
particulalry crashes - nothing worse then hearing a honky biscuit tin of a crash in an othewise decent recording.

spiderjazz

bbk wrote: »

Im sorry but I dont have time to read that thread but you just reminded of something that may help you with your limited inputs so Ill post this real quick.

QOTSA used to, maybe still do, record drums in complete separation.

2 overheads with no drums (pillows over the kit for the drummer so he still feels semi ok. I know I cant play with just cymbals. Feels weird)

Then, record the drums. Now, QOTSA may have done this in two main steps, cymbals and drums but with your limited inputs you could do cymbals then kick and snare, and toms after that.

For one song you may have to do 4 or 5 perfect passes.

I would find it an enjoyable experience trying to get around this problem but you need to know what you are doing and be confident in what you are doing.
As a drummer myself I have the confidence since I know what I would be doing both as an engineer and as the performer.
Make sure your drummer is comfortable with what you need to do.

Recap:

First pass:
Cymbals on two overheads, no drums.

Next pass:
Kick and snare

Next pass:
Toms


On the toms, does he have two? That would be handy but for metal he may well have more so maybe try and see if you can use 1 mic per two toms or experiment with condenser overheads to get all the toms on one go.

Now, ill come back here with time to read and find out I totally misread the situation Im sure haha

Thanks for the response. That actually sounds like a real interesting way to record it, but for what I'm looking for, I think the ekit option is going to work out better. Do you know the reasoning behind them recording like this?

trackmixstudio wrote: »

The best way for you to do this is to program the shells using superior drummer then use overhead condenser mics on the kit and record the drummer playing along with the programmed drums and click track. The live overheads will give depth and "real drummer" feel to the programmed tracks.

Option B would be to book a day with me and record on my Sonor S Class and go home with 5-6 amazing sounding metal drum tracks.:D
http://www.facebook.com/trackmixrecordingstudio?sk=app_19507961798

Option A looks like what I'll be doing alright, going to record shells using an ekit and send that through Superior then. I can get a loan of some condensers for the overheads.

I'd love a day up there Micheal, unfortunately I can't see the lads coughing up the dough for it Some great stuff up on your soundcloud, I've heard a good few recording of yours over the years, and they're always constantly great.

DaDumTish wrote: »

personally i record using a roland td kit into supeiour drummer 2 samples .
it sounds like me , feels like me , and feels great to play .
personally i think its the way forward for the home producer

i also record a live hi hat and ride instead of ekit ones , miced using sm57s .

i blend these into the mix using reverbs and compession- it gives a way more authentic feel and sound.

for a home setup it creates a superb drum sound .
just choose samples - partic snares that dont sound 'samply'
some of them do , others dont
the ez vintage kit is really good - and the metal kit would blow you away .

then i produce it using DAW compression eq reverbs etc- this is the bit you need to learn about .


most drummers get hung up about -' yeah its not real drums , and id rather use my kit , snare etc . '

i would have been the first one to point out this blasphemy years ago ,
but now i see it as a narrow minded view

your first thought as a drummer should be ' how can i serve this song the best , and sound the best ? '
if it means using an ekit with samples - then dont be afriad of it - do it and sound great
instead of banging up loads of mics into an mbox in a sh1t room and sounding like sh1t.

or playing your sh1t kit in a great studio cos you wont use anything else , and end up sounding llike sh1t

the listener will never know how you got this huge sound , and actually will not even give a fcuk anyway.


another thing - when you record - if you dont have good cymbals - borrow or rent some
particulalry crashes - nothing worse then hearing a honky biscuit tin of a crash in an othewise decent recording.

Preaching to the choir man! I only got into the recording thing from the need to be able document ideas, as I hadn't played in a band for a while. As a guitarist it started of with all the emphasis being on the guitars, but the more I got my head into the production side of things, I realised it doesn't matter a sh*t how you get your sounds, as long as it sounds good at the end of the day.

I use superior for my own stuff, but the guys wanted to keep it as natural as possible. I hadn't thought about the ekit initially, but it seems to be the way to go. This is my first time recording stuff that isn't my own, so a whole new learning experience and perspective to go with it. Also I'm doing it for free, hence not wanting to spend too much money

For anyone interested, some of the older stuff I recorded is up on this page: http://soundcloud.com/spiderjazz

I'll update the thread with results when I get things recorded.

purplepanda

Use the "Glyn Johns" drum method for a classic rock sound, just 4 mics mixed down to stereo, or use an extra 2 tracks for snare & bass drum. An easy & simple set up to use which gets good results. Many classic records were made this way. Search the internet for details.

Too many mics costs more money & leads to problems with mixdown & phase ect Best to keep things simple unless you have proper engineers to hire & pay for!!!

i57dwun4yb1pt8

glynn johns method is no good if you dont have either a great sounding room
or a totally dead room

and its also not much good for metal , as you need the close mics for metal .

GTE

spiderjazz wrote: »

Thanks for the response. That actually sounds like a real interesting way to record it, but for what I'm looking for, I think the ekit option is going to work out better. Do you know the reasoning behind them recording like this?

The electric kit does look the better having had a better read through.

I don't know the reasoning but having had a think about it now and considering I have a bad sounding drum kit and fantastic cymbals I think I would do it so I could have a separate cymbal track which I could then put whatever drum kit I want without having the bad drums getting into the OH tracks.

It also works for ekits as mentioned here. You wont get the other drums bleeding into the overheads.

I am all for having a great sounding set of cymbals and drums and recording it "properly" but that is very aspirational. Some of the best fun is a situation like yours where you have problem to overcome. With luck you can get good sounding results! Very rewarding.

PMI

V drums into superior.... Job done

off.the.walls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2_GV1CUm3k put a mic on the kick too

i57dwun4yb1pt8

^^^ ^^^^^^^

arent you forgetting something in that one ?

1/ build a copy of abbey road studios main room around your drumkit

2/ spend twelvety gazillion euros on the mic preamps etc abbey road use .

3/ add a kick mic

spiderjazz

Got the electronic kit set up last night anyway and record's away grand. Hopefully we'll get around to recording properly next week.

In terms of stereo micing the overheads, does anyone have any particular methods that they would recommend? I've been looking at the recorderman method. I'll also try just moving the mics around and listening to try and find the best mix.

PMI

Phase..... Everyone favourite topic

ZV Yoda

spiderjazz wrote: »

Got the electronic kit set up last night anyway and record's away grand. Hopefully we'll get around to recording properly next week.

In terms of stereo micing the overheads, does anyone have any particular methods that they would recommend? I've been looking at the recorderman method. I'll also try just moving the mics around and listening to try and find the best mix.

Recorderman was designed to capture a full acoustic kit + cymbals using only 2 mics in a decent sounding room. The trick with this method is to position the mics so they are equidistant from both the kick & snare. It’s tricky to get right, but can produce decent results (provided the room/kit sound good to begin with). Positioning is critical to balance the kit volume and minimise phase issues between the kick & snare

However, since you are using electronic drums (i.e. the drums themselves produce no sound as such) then you really want to just focus on getting the best sound from the acoustic cymbals/hi-hats. Recorderman wouldn’t make a lot of sense for this approach. You’re better off with 2 mics placed in xy configuration 3-4 feet directly above the kick drum. This approach will minimse phase issues with the cymbals (because the mics are almost touching each other & therefore the sound from each cymbal hits both mics at the same time). The downside is that the stero image of the kit/cymbals is much narrower.

If I were in your shoes, I’d forget about mics altogether & just go with electronic cymbals too. That’s what I do. TD12 + Superior Drummer 2 =

spiderjazz

Right lads, this is the final product. Ended up recording totally with the e-kit. Guitars are Axe Fx. First time using an ekit with Superior and the Axe Fx on a recording so there was a a bit of a learning curve.

http://soundcloud.com/fatactress/fat-actress-korean-wet-dream

The band was featured on metal sucks recently as well http://www.metalsucks.net/2011/08/30/unsigned-unholy-fat-actress-is-metalcore-that-doesnt-suck/ (I wasn't involved with the recordings mentioned in the article)

Facebook page is https://www.facebook.com/Fatactress

Any feedback is appreciated!