A pain in the proverbials....

E. Fudd

A father of a friend took me to meet a sheep farmer this evening who has agreed to allow me to shoot deer on his land.
We arrived in the farmyard, and I knew this place was special. The drive to get there had brought us through some serious deer land, and this farm was literally in the middle of it.
We went into the farm house and sat down for a cup of tea.
The farmer went on to explain to me that he had no problem letting me shoot the land for te time being, but that he had been approached by a lad who brings foreigners out shooting deer, and this lad has offered him a nice cheque and also offered him €100 every day he has clients on the land, provided the farmer "guides" them. As he said to me, money's tight for everybody, and he just can't turn it down.

I'm sickened lads. Perfect land, plenty of deer on it, but as usual it's never straight forward.

I'm struggling to get permissions, Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm an extremely shy person, and I'm literally not able to work up the balls to going and knocking on doors looking for permissions, so I rely on the likes of the chap who introduced me to this. I know some of you may find that ridiculous, but that's the way I am, I don't like it, but Ive tried and I can't change it.

I started stalking about 5 years ago, in a time when money was plentiful. I used to lease from JWshooter. Times have changed and I can't afford that kind of money any more. I now have the sum total of 50 acres of deer shooting permission, where I'm lucky if I even see marks of deer any more due to poaching. Anywhere else that I've tried has been payed for by the likes of the above chap, or poached so heavily that the farmer doesn't want anything to do with allowing anybody else in to shoot.

I've a pain in my b@ll@x trying to get a bit of shooting and getting knocked back. I'm now seriously considering packing it in.


Sorry for the rant lads, I'm sure it's probably going to be jibberish when I read back over it,,

One shot on kill

For someone thats shy you have enough to say only messin by the way here i remember a tread about lads doin this type me thing last season but they were shooting ****ing every thing and destroyin populations in the area they were sayin they were some society or somethin just make sure the farmers knows who they are and there just not gona kill of his herd and forget about him then tell the farmer you will sort him out with meat and burgers and all

blackstairsboy

Sure don't get too down over it something will turn up it always does when you least expect it too. I have ended up getting fishing and shooting permissions from the most unlikely sources. I firmly believe that any honest genuine shooting or fishing man will never be short of land or water to pursue his sport because landowners will know that they can trust him. Wait and see as you will never know what might come your way,;)

It wasn't me!

Sorry to hear it E Fudd. The same thing is going on around here. Farmers are withdrawing all permissions and leasing even their farmland. Any open hill ground can be taken for granted that it's money to shoot it. Once we're up and rolling and I've properly evaluated a couple of bits here, you'd be welcome to come for a stalk someday if I can make it worth your while. No sense if you're not even going to see deer. Just want to get a better impression myself before I'd waste your time.

poulo6.5

sorry to hear your misfortune, could i hazard a guess and say it was around the wicklow mountains.

arrowloopboy

Here are the hard cold facts,the day of getting good stalking for a bottle of whiskey are long gone,the only thing that talks now is cash.Deer stalking especially in Wicklow,is getting scarce, there are alot more stalkers looking to get on the same amount of land,hence ,the same as any commodity,when something gets scarce ,it generally goes up in price.
This will get worse as time goes by and more people get into stalking.
I'm a salmon fisher,and this happened in that game about 10 years ago and its getting worse every year.
The long and short of it is,most poeople that are used to shooting free permissions are either going to have to get used to getting done out ,or are going to have to pony up.
This is just going to get alot worse,so get used to it.

kildarejoe

Lots of farmers refusing permission or looking for money around Kildare and Laois as well.
My permission has disappeared due to the passing of the landowner resulting in a messy family squabble between his children.
I approached a few people I know and was shocked to be asked for money, I believe from what I have been told that there seems to be a group of people buying up permission to the exclusion of existing shooters on that land for the purpose of selling hunting holidays to people with plenty of money to spend on trophy stags and then shoot the rest to go to a game dealer

Well I'm sure I can think of a reply if I am asked to sort out a fox problem by the same farmers.
Dont get me wrong, its their land and they are entitled to do what they like with it but in a couple of years when the deer are shot out and they are over run with vermin, I doubt if the local hunters will have much sympathy.

arrowloopboy

kildarejoe wrote: »

Lots of farmers refusing permission or looking for money around Kildare and Laois as well.
My permission has disappeared due to the passing of the landowner resulting in a messy family squabble between his children.
I approached a few people I know and was shocked to be asked for money, I believe from what I have been told that there seems to be a group of people buying up permission to the exclusion of existing shooters on that land for the purpose of selling hunting holidays to people with plenty of money to spend on trophy stags and then shoot the rest to go to a game dealer

Well I'm sure I can think of a reply if I am asked to sort out a fox problem by the same farmers.
Dont get me wrong, its their land and they are entitled to do what they like with it but in a couple of years when the deer are shot out and they are over run with vermin, I doubt if the local hunters will have much sympathy.

You were SHOCKED to be asked for money Joe ,for something as worthless as deer stalking,this is deer stalking lads not rabbit shooting.

moby30

Deer stalking should be done by people who know the land and have knowledge of local deer population and conservation. Not by people who only have commercial interests. There's no getting used to it. It's bulls##t. I could tell a lot of stories about what's going on in a part of Kildare but All I can say is people involved in this tried to set me up because I have permission on land they want and fortunately it's backfired spectaculary on them.

kildarejoe

Yes.
Shocked as I know these people for years and I have spent nights out in the cold for then when they had fox problems and dog chasing their sheep etc as well as putting sheep and cattle back in fields when they got out onto roads for them before they did any damage or damage done to them.
Its not like they wouldent have gotten the usual christmas bottle of whiskey and a lump of vennison. I dont shoot for profit but like most people I do it for the day out and to put some meat in the freezer.
Yes deer permission is valuable but it depends on what you count as value, money is one form of value but probably the least use on a cold night when you need some help to get a cow out of a drain in the bog. I doubt if they guy that payed you to shoot on your land is going to get out of their bed in the middle of the night to get cold and wet to help you.

There are all sorts of ways to "pay" for permission, not just with money and some things money cant buy.

E. Fudd

moby30 wrote: »

Deer stalking should be done by people who know the land and have knowledge of local deer population and conservation. Not by people who only have commercial interests. There's no getting used to it. It's bulls##t. I could tell a lot of stories about what's going on in a part of Kildare but All I can say is people involved in this tried to set me up because I have permission on land they want and fortunately it's backfired spectaculary on them.

Ah go on Moby, elaborate!

FISMA

E. Fudd,
There are many farmers out there looking for a bit of help every now and then: silage, calves, ...

You need to avail yourself to farmers when they need an extra hand. I have found none that would refuse me a shot after an offer of help.

Just get out there and be polite and straightforward. I would suggest that you travel a few miles from home, say 50. Stop when you see the deer sign in the road. Then ask the first ten farmers for permission. You'll get your spiel down and be able to handle likely questions. Then start working the farms close to home.

I would bet that you'll get one hit for tens tries though.

Just introduce yourself to a farmer and your dilemma. Then tell them that you will be at their call to return the favor.

reddeer1

I don't understand what the problem really is. If a farmer has land that is good deer country why shouldn't he ask for a few pound. I would do it. I wouldn't generalise the fact that all commercial stalkers are not competent deer managers. If we did generalise fellas paying for stalking ground the then the whole of Europe would be hunted by so called commercial stalkers, which isn't true. There is no place whatsoever in mainland Europe were you can get stalking of any sorts for a bottle of whiskey. Its an expensive and much sought after sport.

thelurcher

arrowloopboy wrote: »

the day of getting good stalking for a bottle of whiskey are long gone,the only thing that talks now is cash.

Bit of a hijack but it may help fellas that have to go cold calling too.
Seems the farmers I have permission off are mostly teetotalers - which is also a pain in the proverbials. What do you give them by way of thanks?
They'd be half insulted if I offered them cash - i usually get permission through friends of friends so they wouldn't want it getting back that they're charging me.

FISMA

reddeer1 wrote: »

I don't understand what the problem really is. If a farmer has land that is good deer country why shouldn't he ask for a few pound.

I would not begrudge someone making a few quid so to speak, however, some people are getting out of control.

For one thing, the farmer does not own the animals.

Also, many farmers, if not all, are receiving some form of subsidy or benefit paid via the non farming population.

It's a symbiotic relationship and works for me as long as no one side gets greedy.

deeksofdoom

FISMA wrote: »

Also, many farmers, if not all, are receiving some form of subsidy or benefit paid via the non farming population.

That's a great point..... unfortunately not worth a **** though!

terminator2

stick a meal voucher in a christmas card .... if they are tea totalers

arrowloopboy

FISMA wrote: »

I would not begrudge someone making a few quid so to speak, however, some people are getting out of control.

For one thing, the farmer does not own the animals.

Also, many farmers, if not all, are receiving some form of subsidy or benefit paid via the non farming population.

It's a symbiotic relationship and works for me as long as no one side gets greedy.

The farmer may as well own the deer if their on his lands,

And regarding your subsidy arguement,thats like me saying that because i pay twords the guys dole next door ,that i should be allowed a spin on his wife every now and again:eek:.

deeksofdoom

arrowloopboy wrote: »

And regarding your subsidy arguement,thats like me saying that because i pay twords the guys dole next door ,that i should be allowed a spin on his wife every now and again:eek:.

LMFAO!!!:D:D:D

The Big Fella

E. Fudd wrote: »

I'm struggling to get permissions, Anyone who knows me will tell you that I'm an extremely shy person, and I'm literally not able to work up the balls to going and knocking on doors looking for permissions

"hard neck will travel" comes to mind E. Fudd, the more farmers you ask the easier it will get and you should come across a farmer who is willing. Some farmers can be weary of lads using rifles in my opinion. Maybe ask for vermin shooting with the shottie first. I wouldnt be driving 50 miles away looking for permissions as was suggested. Maybe stick a notice up in a notice board in a cattle mart stating your looking to cull deer for farmers.

underthetumb

you might have better luck travelling 50 miles than putting an add in the mart. you would be waiting a long time on that call in my opinion.
as said already, knocking on doors and meeting face to face is the way to go, its how i got all my permissions, i was probably turned down 3/4 times out of 10. i know it will be difficult for ya, but once you get the first one out of the way it will get easier.

marlin vs

arrowloopboy wrote: »

The farmer may as well own the deer if their on his lands,

And regarding your subsidy arguement,thats like me saying that because i pay twords the guys dole next door ,that i should be allowed a spin on his wife every now and again:eek:.

You mean you'r not.

arrowloopboy

marlin vs wrote: »

You mean you'r not.

The lacks in Waterford must be more giving than the lassies around here:D.

vixdname

arrowloopboy wrote: »

The lacks in Waterford must be more giving than the lassies around here:D.

As another Waterford man, I'll vouch for that !!!

kildarejoe

Just a thought on charging for stalking.
As most of us have our own insurance etc, I may be wrong but charging people to stalk deer on your land may get complicated in the event of an accident / incident as you may be have a duty of care to the people you charge to enter your land.
Something worth looking into if you charge.

FISMA

arrowloopboy wrote: »

The farmer may as well own the deer if their on his lands,

And regarding your subsidy arguement,thats like me saying that because i pay twords the guys dole next door ,that i should be allowed a spin on his wife every now and again:eek:.

When bambi jumps in front of your car and causes a few thousand worth of damage, try telling the farmer that they pretty much own them.

As for the dole argument, remind me never to borrow money from you, that's a pretty harsh sentence for the ladies!

marlin vs

FISMA wrote: »

When bambi jumps in front of your car and causes a few thousand worth of damage, try telling the farmer that they pretty much own them.

Well said.Farmers running for the hill's in a case like that.

arrowloopboy

FISMA wrote: »

When bambi jumps in front of your car and causes a few thousand worth of damage, try telling the farmer that they pretty much own them.

As for the dole argument, remind me never to borrow money from you, that's a pretty harsh sentence for the ladies!

They more or less do own them when their on their lands,not a public road.

And as regards a sentence on the ladies,think a young Marlon Brando in Mutiny on the Bounty and your nearly there:p.

westwicklow

We have had the same hunters on our lands for nearly twenty years. Last year, one man took home over twenty three deer and another took home thirteen. Money is never even mentioned and 3 generations of us haven't taken a drink.... we are glad to have our trustworthy hunters in around the place to reduce damage to our private forestry (approx 100 acres) etc. They make use of our roads around the farms and occasionally even borrow a quad or two... however, at the start, we only allowed in a couple of local men but just with shotguns for vermin control and over the many years, the hunters now come and go to suit themselves. Recently, we were approached by some foreign gents offering substantial money but, despite the temptation, we refused. We've never had an issue with the present set up and I hope that's how it remains. My point... it takes time to build up a working relationship in the country, do things right and there will not be a problem, try to pull a fast one and you're finished.

moby30

Fair play to you WestWicklow. In all fairness the way things are it must be tempting all right to be offered money. If more land owners had your attitude it would sort this crap out. Not forgetting the hunters either- they are obviously very good and reliable other wise who knows. An important message for us all there.

johngalway

FISMA wrote: »

Also, many farmers, if not all, are receiving some form of subsidy or benefit paid via the non farming population.

[mounts hobby horse]

It's not for nothing though, there are lots of expensive and prohibitive regulations to comply with. There's also an issue of land cost and production cost. It's tough to grow a business under those circumstances.

Remove the regulations and fine, remove the subs. But it's far from money for old rope.

[/dismounts hobby horse]

Though it's true, helping the farmer get a cow out of a drain, or jumping out of a car and lend a hand penning sheep or putting them in a trailer is of a lot more value than cold hard cash