Turning down s&s scheme?

JD3112

Got a RPT (~21hrs) contract in my school this year (been there previously as a sub), and I now have to fill out the s&s application form.

Personally I don't want to do it as I am still a young/new teacher and don't want the extra hassle (discipline wise) in the yard and in free classes.

Also, I am happy with the money I'll be earning.

Will the school take a dim view of me by not signing up?
Would it be advisable to talk to them first and see what their situation is (i.e. if they had plenty of people signing up, then they wouldn't mind etc)

I'll obviously do it if theres a chance of the principal and the rest of the teachers feeling annoyed or thinking Im lazy.

Any opinions welcome! Thanks

flatbackfour

Will hardly be noticed by other teachers. Just opt out of it. Management wont give it a second thought, especially for a NQT

solerina

Totally agree with flatbackfour, its entirely your own choice, noone in our school even takes any notice of who does/doesnt do it and every year some of the new teachers dont opt in.
Actually less tha 50% of the staff in my school are involved.

Boober Fraggle

I haven't a clue who does/doesn't do s and s in our school. Don't make a big deal out of it, and I'm sure noone else will either.

freire

Ooph - I don't know. I'm pretty sure management in my own school wouldn't look too sympathetically on opting out. Even though theoretically it is a voluntary thing.

I didn't particularly want to do it this year when I saw the payment utterly decimated by cuts, taxes, levies. It literally is not worth it. Think I came out with 600 odd net. From a gross payment of 17 something.

I did sign up though as my 'boss' would definitely notice, and not in a good way.

peanuthead

agree with freire on this one. I really don't want to do it myself, but there are very few teachers in my place who don't and from what I can see they are either post holders or doing part time masters or something.

I'm only new, but from what I can see in my place I would need a very good reason not to opt in.

eager tortoise

In my last school not enough teachers opted in and there were gaps to cover during breaks and lunch-times so some of us (part-timers of course and eager to please!) took on extra duties. Think it just shows that you're generally willing to pitch in. After all, say what they will about it being voluntary, s and s is necessary in order for the school to function. If everyone opted out then there would be serious problems. I know some people do and in many places it's not an issue, I just know that in my last school being willing to do it was a sign that you were willing to do your bit. I don't know if many people do it just for the money any more, as it is so heavily taxed, but then maybe I'm just being naive

khan86

Just wondering, if a school doesn't have enough teachers signed up to do S&S, would this increase the chances of an unemployed teacher being rang at short notice to fill in? I hope that doesn't sound stupid but being a NQT with little experience, not sure how the whole thing works.

jonseyblub

In practice s&s in most schools is only optional if you're permanent as you don't have to worry about what the principal thinks.

tgirl

In our place it would def be frowned upon to opt I am really tempted to this year as I don 't think it s worth the hassle

RH149

Quite a few people don't do it in our school, actually I'm not sure who doesn't, it's not really noticed -but I will say that any new teachers are directed to the wall where the lists for signing up are....it's sort of presumed they will do it. If any objected I'm sure they would be told, that's fine...its voluntary but I don't think it would go down well....all unofficially of course but I think if I was an NQT and wanted a good reference I wouldn't make an issue of it and would just do it.
Its like extra curricular activities, teachers aren't required to volunteer...but lets face it, it's expected, especially with new teachers in a school. Not fair etc but just how it is.

flatbackfour

Explain to the principal your reasoning. Its perfectly sensible. Be assertive about your needs. In the long run your approach will be respected and so will you.

RealJohn

First of all, I'd just like to echo what's been said overall. It shouldn't be a problem for you to opt out. It is optional and if it's a fairly big school you won't even be missed.

That being said, I think you should consider it. You say you don't want to have to handle the discipline issues and that's fair enough but now is the time to get the practice in. You don't want to find yourself needing the money in the future when you're older and less able for it without the practice.

Personally I've never found it to be that much of a hassle anyway mind but then that's just me. I imagine there are plenty of people who dislike it.

doc_17

My S&S was taxed at 62% this year. I a small school they might need everyone to do it but in a large school you migt be able to turn it down with no hassle.....

It certainly isnt the money we do it for any!

freire

flatbackfour wrote: »

Explain to the principal your reasoning. Its perfectly sensible. Be assertive about your needs. In the long run your approach will be respected and so will you.

That might work in an ideal world. It would be fairly naive in most schools however. You're basically saying you don't want the hassle, i.e. you're not willing to pitch in. This is not a good thing when it comes to reviewing your contract and hours.

flatbackfour

freire wrote: »

That might work in an ideal world. It would be fairly naive in most schools however. You're basically saying you don't want the hassle, i.e. you're not willing to pitch in. This is not a good thing when it comes to reviewing your contract and hours.

Ive worked in schools for 15 years. Its not naive. Your a new teacher, you want to concentrate on getting your teaching method right etc, no principal is going to judge you if this is the genuine reason. If you can do the job in the classroom and dont bother the principal with disipline issues you will be fine and actually respected.

ethical

non permanent teachers are not considered for s and s in a school near me even-though I know some of them would be willing to do it.I think it is something to do with the permanent staff having first choice and they usually take up the full available allocation...(and some of them do not even 'do it'! but that's another story)....leaving no hours for the willing and able new teachers.I spoke to a permanent teacher recently who has done s and s since it first came in and he says that he is considering not opting in this year as any hassle he had last year was during s and s and he felt he did not get the required back-up from management in dealing with the problems and he reckons that at 62% tax it is hardly worth it.Another teacher who is within two years of retiring is definitely doing it as he said it will add to his pension,mind you he did say that if he had a decade left in teaching that he would not bother doing it.Whatever you do make sure you are happy with your decision and maybe you should speak to your union rep first and then make your decision.

wantano

I think you'd be foolish not to do it - as non permanent you need to not draw attention to yourself. It's not going to cut into your teaching duties and if you use the time wisely you could get to know the children better. You risk being seen as precious - the staff don't care but principals want "co operative" staff. We were more or less told to do it, now I'm there a while I know I can withdraw no prob, but you have to prove yourself, like it or not.

rainbowtrout

freire wrote: »

That might work in an ideal world. It would be fairly naive in most schools however. You're basically saying you don't want the hassle, i.e. you're not willing to pitch in. This is not a good thing when it comes to reviewing your contract and hours.

No it doesn't say that. Many teachers are very willing to pitch in and do so all the time without any payment. They are involved in many extra curricular activities. S&S is paid work. If you don't want to do it, you don't get paid. I see it as very different from other voluntary activities in the school, and if the OP is involved in other ways (which are perhaps more beneficial to the students) then I can't see why it should effect how their hours and contracts are determined in the future.

Anyone who wants to do it in my school can do it. Most have opted out at this stage because it's too much hassle so most S&S is done by RPT teachers on relatively low hours.

implausible

OP, it depends on the school - in some the majority do it and someone opting out would be noticed, but in others there are so many who have opted out of it that it wouldn't be.

However, I will add this - supervising on halls gives you a good 'feel' for a school. You get to know more about the students you have and begin to recognise those you don't and you get talking to colleagues you mightn't speak to in the staffroom.

In my opinion, it's not a good idea to only know the particular class groups that you teach, especially in a smaller school.

TheDriver

if lots opt out, then you are vital to keeping it going, we always expect the newer staff members to take up s&s because we would be stuck otherwise. Report if they are not doing as they are told but don't chase people around a pitch like a fool because sometimes thats what they want. I have always found s&s a great way to walk around and get to know the kids and never really had any trouble if you take it handy

freire

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No it doesn't say that. Many teachers are very willing to pitch in and do so all the time without any payment. They are involved in many extra curricular activities. S&S is paid work. If you don't want to do it, you don't get paid. I see it as very different from other voluntary activities in the school, and if the OP is involved in other ways (which are perhaps more beneficial to the students) then I can't see why it should effect how their hours and contracts are determined in the future.

Anyone who wants to do it in my school can do it. Most have opted out at this stage because it's too much hassle so most S&S is done by RPT teachers on relatively low hours.

I had a long and detailed response. It got lost. I don't want to get into a bun fight. In my school you do it. Practically everybody does it. It's poorly remunerated and can be grief.

I don't particularly see the arguement you're making. Of course voluntary work is unpaid. It's also mutually beneficial and enhances the school experience as well as your standing and relationship with students.

In my own school opting out of S&S would not be seen in a positive light. It's necessary for the smooth running of the school, with yard and corridor supervision and covering absences, mainly for trips and sports. It is paid. But from a headache and time management point of view it does 'impinge'.

Certain slots get used a lot more than others and therefore certain teachers too.

It doesn't matter how many after hours activities etc you're involved in, if you're asked, hypothetically, at short notice, to cover a class during a free period of your own, and you refuse, or do so reluctantly, then that's not being a team player. Opting out of S&S is not dissimilar.

This is my experience. Yours may be different. No problem.

rainbowtrout

freire wrote: »

I had a long and detailed response. It got lost. I don't want to get into a bun fight. In my school you do it. Practically everybody does it. It's poorly remunerated and can be grief.

I don't particularly see the arguement you're making. Of course voluntary work is unpaid. It's also mutually beneficial and enhances the school experience as well as your standing and relationship with students.

In my own school opting out of S&S would not be seen in a positive light. It's necessary for the smooth running of the school, with yard and corridor supervision and covering absences, mainly for trips and sports. It is paid. But from a headache and time management point of view it does 'impinge'.

Certain slots get used a lot more than others and therefore certain teachers too.

It doesn't matter how many after hours activities etc you're involved in, if you're asked, hypothetically, at short notice, to cover a class during a free period of your own, and you refuse, or do so reluctantly, then that's not being a team player. Opting out of S&S is not dissimilar.

This is my experience. Yours may be different. No problem.

I don't see why you are differentiating covering a class and S&S, they are the same thing. If you are asked to cover a class, you will be paid for it through the S&S scheme. I do lots of extra work in my school as do many teachers for no extra pay. I chose not to do S&S after many years of being involved in it. Essentially S&S is overtime, it's paid and I choose not to do it. Yes, it's needed for the smooth running of the school, but when I have an option of not doing it, I don't see why I should be made feel guilty for opting out. Correctors are needed for the smooth running of the Leaving Cert. It's paid work but I don't see people saying that everyone should sign up to it and it looks bad if you don't. I would say out of a staff of about 30 in my school, there are probably only about 12 people left in S&S.

In my school they don't run it like other schools where you sign up for certain slots during the week so you know when you have to make yourself available. If you sign up for S&S in my school, as well as whatever lunch/break slots you sign up for, you are fair game for any free period you have during the week. I have come in numerous times over the years where my only free period on the day where I do lunch duty has been taken for S&S, when there are plenty of other staff available. I have come in many times to see teachers on 6 and 7 hours left sitting all day with no supervision and find that I have been assigned for three S&S periods that I could really do without. It's very hard to plan in my school to do stuff like sort out the lab (science teacher) or photocopy during your free class if you have no idea until you walk in that morning if you are going to be nabbed for S&S that day. At least in most other schools if you have signed up for particular slots you have a fair idea if you will be on duty or not. You can guarantee if your timetable falls so you have a half day on a Tuesday that almost every week you will be assigned to last class on Tuesday for supervision, even though there are three other teachers available at that time, who are on lower hours and would be damn glad to get the extra classes.

Only yesterday, and we are only starting back so we are still on a skeleton timetable as all the year groups are not back, but one of the teachers came in to find she had been signed up to cover 6 periods out of the 9 on the timetable for Friday. She had planned on getting her room sorted out during her free time that day, and those 6 periods could have been divided out among a number of people giving her some time to do some work.

So yes, my experience of S&S is totally different, hence why I've opted out.

freire

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't see why you are differentiating covering a class and S&S, they are the same thing. If you are asked to cover a class, you will be paid for it through the S&S scheme. I do lots of extra work in my school as do many teachers for no extra pay. I chose not to do S&S after many years of being involved in it. Essentially S&S is overtime, it's paid and I choose not to do it. Yes, it's needed for the smooth running of the school, but when I have an option of not doing it, I don't see why I should be made feel guilty for opting out. Correctors are needed for the smooth running of the Leaving Cert. It's paid work but I don't see people saying that everyone should sign up to it and it looks bad if you don't. I would say out of a staff of about 30 in my school, there are probably only about 12 people left in S&S.

In my school they don't run it like other schools where you sign up for certain slots during the week so you know when you have to make yourself available. If you sign up for S&S in my school, as well as whatever lunch/break slots you sign up for, you are fair game for any free period you have during the week. I have come in numerous times over the years where my only free period on the day where I do lunch duty has been taken for S&S, when there are plenty of other staff available. I have come in many times to see teachers on 6 and 7 hours left sitting all day with no supervision and find that I have been assigned for three S&S periods that I could really do without. It's very hard to plan in my school to do stuff like sort out the lab (science teacher) or photocopy during your free class if you have no idea until you walk in that morning if you are going to be nabbed for S&S that day. At least in most other schools if you have signed up for particular slots you have a fair idea if you will be on duty or not. You can guarantee if your timetable falls so you have a half day on a Tuesday that almost every week you will be assigned to last class on Tuesday for supervision, even though there are three other teachers available at that time, who are on lower hours and would be damn glad to get the extra classes.

Only yesterday, and we are only starting back so we are still on a skeleton timetable as all the year groups are not back, but one of the teachers came in to find she had been signed up to cover 6 periods out of the 9 on the timetable for Friday. She had planned on getting her room sorted out during her free time that day, and those 6 periods could have been divided out among a number of people giving her some time to do some work.

So yes, my experience of S&S is totally different, hence why I've opted out.

Erm, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty about anything. I don't want to do the thing either. I'm simply saying what I'm sure management in my school would think of me, or anyone else, opting out. I've to take the long game into consideration, I'm not permanent or even CID, so I'm pretty much near the bottom of the heap.

I agree with most of what you're saying in fact. And I'm not behind the door when it comes to extra curricular activities.

I wasn't making any distinction between covering classes and S&S. I know how it works, I'm a working teacher after all.

I have in the past been asked to drop what I was doing, during a rare free period, and high tail it to room x, y or z simply because I was the first person to be spotted, and maybe the most junior. This is separate to any S&S periods I might be asked to cover.

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In my school they don't run it like other schools where you sign up for certain slots during the week so you know when you have to make yourself available. If you sign up for S&S in my school, as well as whatever lunch/break slots you sign up for, you are fair game for any free period you have during the week.

That is not the way the scheme should be run:eek: How the hell are they getting away with that? If it was like that in our school, nobody would do it!

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

That is not the way the scheme should be run:eek: How the hell are they getting away with that? If it was like that in our school, nobody would do it!

Tell me about it. It's only the tip of the iceberg. I could write a whole book on my school. That said the people who do it get paid for every class they cover. There was one teacher last year who did a ridiculous number of hours during the year, something like 110! People are dropping out left, right and centre because you are either caught for most of your free classes during the week or if you've had a falling out with management you don't get a class for months and subs are brought in to cover classes while the person who needs the hours doesn't get any. Last year was the first year I didn't do it, and it was such a relief to be able to come in in the morning and not have to look at the board and groan because yet again all of my free periods were gone.

jonseyblub

That's madness. Have you a union in the school to stand up to this blatant disregard of the rules of S&S? Am i not right in saying that the max you are allowed to do is something like 37 hours and then you are allowed then to voluntarily opt for 12 more (so absolute max is 49) . And then you can only offer up 3 periods a week to do it and then be asked to do just 1.

rainbowtrout

jonseyblub wrote: »

That's madness. Have you a union in the school to stand up to this blatant disregard of the rules of S&S? Am i not right in saying that the max you are allowed to do is something like 37 hours and then you are allowed then to voluntarily opt for 12 more (so absolute max is 49) . And then you can only offer up 3 periods a week to do it and then be asked to do just 1.

Ya, if you are permanent you can't do any more than 49 hours in the year, if you are not permanent you can do above that.

We have a union, we have both unions in fact. This S&S stuff is only the tip of the iceberg. Our area rep and a rep from head office went into a meeting with our principal and CEO last year on behalf of teachers (different issue) and came out with what the principal wanted.... and kept no minutes of the meeting. The 'solution' was not in favour of the teachers of course, and we have no idea what went on at the meeting although those reps were supposed to be in there representing teachers.

S&S is only a minor thing is the general scheme of things where I work. I could write a book on the place and fill many threads about it but as my school would clearly be identified I won't post it here. Anyone curious enough can PM.

jonseyblub

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya, if you are permanent you can't do any more than 49 hours in the year, if you are not permanent you can do above that.
.

Never knew that. That just gives certain management another opportunity to exploit non-permanent staff.

Delphi91

Yes, if you are non-permanent you can do over 49 hours in the year.

However, you are not allowed to do more than 735 hours in the year. This equates to the equivalent of a 22-hour week for each week of the academic year. If a non-permanent teacher has a part-time contract for, say, 10 hours a week, then the maximum they can be asked to do is 12 hours over and above their contracted hours per week (see section 3.2 of http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/PPT01-03%20Supervision%20%26%20Substitution%20in%20Second%20Level%20Schools.doc

ethical

The whole S & S thing needs to be looked at as there seems to be many anomalies in the way it is presently carried out. I just do not know why the Dept did not insist on all teachers having a period or two of built into their time table that could be used for the s & s scheme.Money would be saved in the long run and it would be more beneficial to the Dept.Unlike that daft 33 hr non paid work that must be done by all staff together after school over the course of the year.This silly proposal will kill sport in school as most training is done after school,now a teacher training a team must wait behind another evening doing sweet f a,keeping the Indo and begrudgers happy!