any diesel direct injection injctor buffs here?

totalguy

i have a mondeo tddi direct injection obviously and im trying to find out if theres any upgrades for the injectors. its a 2.0 16v version

i have scoured google and not finding anything. if my injectors are fine as they are what sort of power should they take 200bhp? im aiming for under 200bhp more like 180bhp

theres little info anywhere about the injectors and one company said they could increase the flow and send me a set but at 560 quid with no guarantee im not going to do that!

ive got a decat hybrid turobo (going on tomorrow) bigger intercooler straight through exhaust and a remap although the remap isnt set up for the turbo. previous figures were 178bhp but im sceptical about the rollers it went on.

so please please if theres anyone with any good knowledge of these systems/injectors please leave a message thanks

Plug

Sell it and buy one with a TCDI engine. Much better and easier to tune. I find them hp figures hard to believe.

totalguy

not interested thanks. i could give you a million reasons why but you probably know them all

ive done every mod you can on a tdci on mine except injectors not much difference when it comes to mods on both.

crosshair1

I dont think 180 is realistic with the vp44 pump, injectors wont be as much of an issue as the pump control system, what boost pressure do you think you need to acheieve this bhp?

totalguy

thankyou someone with some knowledge!!

is that the pump ive got?

i had a feeling injectors might not be an issue.

its been running standard boost but a hybrid turbo is going on tomorrow.

could you explain why it is unrealistic (not too technical) please?

i know a couple of people with less mods running between 145 and 162 but ive already said my piece about the figures above

thanks in advance

ford jedi

firstly what year mondeo and what hp model is it before you start??

the bhp figures you are talking about are very high and are acheiveable but you,l be digging deep. the tdci engine can take alot more tuning and are more compatable with the extra edditions to take the power.

totalguy

ford jedi wrote: »

firstly what year mondeo and what hp model is it before you start??

the bhp figures you are talking about are very high and are acheiveable but you,l be digging deep. the tdci engine can take alot more tuning and are more compatable with the extra edditions to take the power.

sorry but im still not interested in tdci. injector failures common loads more sensors, sensitive system etc etc i talk about and read about tdci's every day on a ford forum and i see all the problms everyone has with them.

as far as my system goes fuel related and turbo its really reliable in comparison and a proven fact for me.

i know a guy with a tdci he runs 230bhp with modified injectors bigger intercooler nos and water/meth. im not interested in that high 180 will do me

i posted to try and find people in the know about my system because iwant to find out as much as i can about it. i know enough about tdci's to keep away from them (mondeo's anyway lol)

ive done a lot to my tddi and intend to go on as long as it takes to get what i want.

ive also got poly bushed arb's rear subfram and front wishbones and i have a set of bc racing coilovers too this all helps with the driving experience. im not saying suspension type mods give you bhp but they certainly improve the ride, handling and the way the car runs

for example pulling off is far better than standard now due to the rear not lurching down and the front doesnt lurch off throttle or when braking.

im trying to find info (well more info than i started asking about now) about injectors turbo and fuel pump. this seems to be what i need to be looking at for what im trying to achieve.

i could go out and buy a tdci tomorrow and i could easily modify it up and get it past 180 in the matter of about a week no problems but i dont want the headache of the failures and problems they suffer regardless of modifying or not

sorry but it had to be said

ford jedi

i just asked what engine and year it was ,, and original hp it is , because depending on which vp pump and injectors is in the car ,, your goin no where near 180 bhp if this is a bog 90 ps engine it defo gona take alot more work ,the remap and turbo will be completly useless as the fuel system can only deliver so much fuel and the ratios will be a mile off , so which hp is the car originally?

totalguy

ford jedi wrote: »

i just asked what engine and year it was ,, and original hp it is , because depending on which vp pump and injectors is in the car ,, your goin no where near 180 bhp if this is a bog 90 ps engine it defo gona take alot more work ,the remap and turbo will be completly useless as the fuel system can only deliver so much fuel and the ratios will be a mile off , so which hp is the car originally?

ok i can answer that

i dont know of a 90ps in the uk its a 115 but ive seen atleast 5 stock tddi's on rollers producing between 125 and 136bhp.

i understand where your coming from on the 90ps though

its a fixed vane turbo GT2049s. i did have another tddi before this one (got rear ended) it had the vnt turbo which is the same as the tdci and its a GT1749v

the new turbo's basically the same turbo as before but insides upgraded.

the 178 i got on the rollers in sceptical about its a rollers i hadnt used before and it was old. a guy i speak to in on a forum ireland funny enough has a tddi running at 162 he says without any other mods other than remap. i would guess his is a 115 too.

if his figures are correct then with what ive got (and im adding) it should certainly perform better than his i would have thought.

i just need some info off people who know these systems so i can go further there are tons of people who know about tdci's out there but i know all that sort of info its mine i dont know so much about.

all my mods will go straight onto a tdci with exception to the turbo, i belive the turbo will go on some 115bhp version tdci's as they use the same model i dont think they will go on any 130 though. and the euro 3 tdci vnt turbo is the same for all 130 2.0''s and 2.2's i found out from the place i got this new turbo done

here is a pic of my new turbo just to clarify

Slidey

Ah ya, the corduroy block on the fords is renowned for being a bit soft... :pac:

totalguy

little update:

hybrid is fitted now and decat and the cars all good just got to bed it in.

i found out the boost psi now its 20psi boost but spikes to 24 so plenty of room for improvement.

the max boost of the variable vane is 30psi with overboost so i could easily take mine upto 25 and still ample room for the spike.

i know now the pipework will take 30 as its the same as the variable vane pipework so its something to consider when i get it mapped again.

totalguy

anyone else got any helpful advice please?

i intend to try a transit forum next as most transits are usually diesels and i may get some info from there

crosshair1

totalguy wrote: »

anyone else got any helpful advice please?

Not knocking you but I'm not sure if you understand the complexity of the task your taking on.
Say it was a tdci then when you put on all your mods to deliver greater air mass to the engine, all you then need to do is have your ecu modified to increase the fuel delivered to compensate for your mods (the delphi system fitted, if in good condition would be more than capable).
With a tddi you dont have the flexibility as the pump is mechanically assembled to deliver fuel quantities within a specific window.
A question for you, how do you intend to get around the boost pressure sensor being incapable of reading over approx 20psi?
This can be done, the guy that could do it would have to be a diesel pump specialist with a rolling road and be capable of generating and programming his own fuel maps.

totalguy

crosshair1 wrote: »

Not knocking you but I'm not sure if you understand the complexity of the task your taking on.
Say it was a tdci then when you put on all your mods to deliver greater air mass to the engine, all you then need to do is have your ecu modified to increase the fuel delivered to compensate for your mods (the delphi system fitted, if in good condition would be more than capable).
With a tddi you dont have the flexibility as the pump is mechanically assembled to deliver fuel quantities within a specific window.
A question for you, how do you intend to get around the boost pressure sensor being incapable of reading over approx 20psi?
This can be done, the guy that could do it would have to be a diesel pump specialist with a rolling road and be capable of generating and programming his own fuel maps.

see this is why im here to look for help i dont know these things.

i mean what is and where is boost pressure sensor that cant read over 20psi? also if thats the case then why does the same tddi with a variable vane turbo produce over 20psi? different sensor? electrics?

i take it a fuel map isnt something thats done on a remap?

E39MSport

AD Dublin are good as aer HPMP.ie

shamwari

crosshair1 wrote: »

Not knocking you but I'm not sure if you understand the complexity of the task your taking on.
Say it was a tdci then when you put on all your mods to deliver greater air mass to the engine, all you then need to do is have your ecu modified to increase the fuel delivered to compensate for your mods (the delphi system fitted, if in good condition would be more than capable).
With a tddi you dont have the flexibility as the pump is mechanically assembled to deliver fuel quantities within a specific window.
A question for you, how do you intend to get around the boost pressure sensor being incapable of reading over approx 20psi?
This can be done, the guy that could do it would have to be a diesel pump specialist with a rolling road and be capable of generating and programming his own fuel maps.

Crosshair is man is talking sense here. OP, your Mondy has an electronically controlled manual pump (which is not the most reliable anyway), mechanical injectors and a fixed blade turbo. In short, you are dealing with last century's technology and you have just about everything standing in your way for achieving the sort of power upgrades you want.

The TDCI offers far better prospects for tuning and tweaking because everything is electronic. The TDCI also has sequential injection which can be remapped to deliver more BHP. The wastegate actuation on the TDCI is also electronically controlled whereas (I'm almost certain) is not the case on the older TDDI.

Why not forget about spending good cash in pursuit of more power from your current machine, and instead save up and buy the 2.2TDCi instead.....which is pretty potent machine..

totalguy

E39MSport wrote: »

AD Dublin are good as aer HPMP.ie

im on south wales lol i was recommended to come here by someone on a ford forum.

been googling the vp44 and looking on youtube and ive seen a 24v diesel truck with the vp44 pump pulling/drag race a large trailer so why cant i get 180? i mean surely those trucks are going to be putting out far more power and theyre 6 cylinders.

also found the vectra and zafira uses same pumps as well as the obvious transits too. and they use them in the 2.4 transit and the 125ps

theres obviously a point im missing here though? cross you seem to know what your talking about so can you enlighten me please

Thanks

totalguy

shamwari wrote: »

Crosshair is man is talking sense here. OP, your Mondy has an electronically controlled manual pump (which is not the most reliable anyway), mechanical injectors and a fixed blade turbo. In short, you are dealing with last century's technology and you have just about everything standing in your way for achieving the sort of power upgrades you want.

The TDCI offers far better prospects for tuning and tweaking because everything is electronic. The TDCI also has sequential injection which can be remapped to deliver more BHP. The wastegate actuation on the TDCI is also electronically controlled whereas (I'm almost certain) is not the case on the older TDDI.

Why not forget about spending good cash in pursuit of more power from your current machine, and instead save up and buy the 2.2TDCi instead.....which is pretty potent machine..

i get where your coming from he does seem to know what he's talking about.

theres no way id buy a tdci i literally read every single day about tdci problems and ive gained so much knowledge about their problems im confident enough to answer most peoples issues with them. this in itself puts me off them and all those electrics i can round up a list of faulty sensors as well as injectors they always will fail at some point. its rare tddi injectors fail in my years of experience with them and the tddi is more reliable than any tdci mondeo thats a fact. ive been on a mondeo forum since 2004 and owned a tddi since 2006 and read about tdci's from 2006 till the present.

what ive spent on mine is very little compared to what some people have spent on a tdci just fixing it

im going to find what info i need one way or the other and im keeping my reliable tddi. the only reason im on my second one is the first one got rear ended otherwise id still have the old one.

for the record mine is faster and performs better than a 2.2 stock ive driven both mine and a 2.2 and mines quicker in a sprint too. so ive already passed the 2.2 stock i just want a bit more now

shamwari

totalguy wrote: »

been googling the vp44 and looking on youtube and ive seen a 24v diesel truck with the vp44 pump pulling/drag race a large trailer so why cant i get 180? i mean surely those trucks are going to be putting out far more power and theyre 6 cylinders.

also found the vectra and zafira uses same pumps as well as the obvious transits too. and they use them in the 2.4 transit and the 125ps

theres obviously a point im missing here though? cross you seem to know what your talking about so can you enlighten me please

Thanks

A Bosch VP pump feeding a 24V truck engine is going to puke fuel into the engine at an obscene rate and will be engineered to do that routinely. The VP is a Mondy / Vectra / transit etc are not be engineered to fuel on that scale. In normal tune, the most power any of those cars would produce would still be around 120bhp or so. To get it to 180bhp is increasing the output by around 50%, and using every tweek in the book, this is still a very tall order in your application. But still, if that's what you want to do then by all means give it a go, and the best of luck in doing so!

totalguy

shamwari wrote: »

A Bosch VP pump feeding a 24V truck engine is going to puke fuel into the engine at an obscene rate and will be engineered to do that routinely. The VP is a Mondy / Vectra / transit etc are not be engineered to fuel on that scale. In normal tune, the most power any of those cars would produce would still be around 120bhp or so. To get it to 180bhp is increasing the output by around 50%, and using every tweek in the book, this is still a very tall order in your application. But still, if that's what you want to do then by all means give it a go, and the best of luck in doing so!

not sure where 120bhp comes from as i know for sure they will do more than that easily stock mondeo tddi's produce between 125-136 ive seen about 5 stock ones running in those figures.

so if that one for the 24v engine is engineered to do that firstly why is it the same pump number? and secondly whats stopping me putting one of those on mine? or even getting the insides changed or something like that?

i have a spare pump in perfect working order i could get done if nessecary without touching the one on the car.

i found the same part number (not vp44) fitted to a 2.5 audi diesel im sure these are going to be chucking out a lot of power. maybe not 200bhp but not far off.

i guess i need to do some more research on these because fgrom what ive found so far and from what your saying the vp44 is in essense different inside if im reading correctly?

shamwari

What number have you got on your 24V pump? I'll see what specs I can did out for it. By the way, what engine is this 24V lump?

crosshair1

The vp44 is just the overall pump term, there are probably hundreds of variants.

The audi 2.5 is a 6 cylinder.

The big issue with all this would be cost, if thats not a problem then go for it.
The point I was trying to get across with the boost sensor was that most of the sensors inputting information to the ecu are 5v powered and use the range 0.5 (or 1)v-4.5V.

If you go beyond the scale of the sensor the ecu doesnt know what the value is (this is assuming you have a work around for logging a fault).
This would be like a speedo that reads fine up to 40mph and sticks at that for all speeds above.

I would also assume that you cannot use a vp pump from any other make as it will not use the same communication protocol as the ford, to even swap a used ford pump will require the dealer tool ids or bosch kts(i think)

totalguy

shamwari wrote: »

What number have you got on your 24V pump? I'll see what specs I can did out for it. By the way, what engine is this 24V lump?

ive not got a 24v pump being a 6 cylinder i dont think its going to work taking bits out of a 24v pump to put in one for a 16v 4 cylinder

totalguy

crosshair1 wrote: »

The vp44 is just the overall pump term, there are probably hundreds of variants.

The audi 2.5 is a 6 cylinder.

The big issue with all this would be cost, if thats not a problem then go for it.
The point I was trying to get across with the boost sensor was that most of the sensors inputting information to the ecu are 5v powered and use the range 0.5 (or 1)v-4.5V.

If you go beyond the scale of the sensor the ecu doesnt know what the value is (this is assuming you have a work around for logging a fault).
This would be like a speedo that reads fine up to 40mph and sticks at that for all speeds above.

I would also assume that you cannot use a vp pump from any other make as it will not use the same communication protocol as the ford, to even swap a used ford pump will require the dealer tool ids or bosch kts(i think)

thanks for your input......

ok so the audi 1 is 6 cylinder fine no go there then......


i think i understand what you mean about the boost but i have some things to add about it.......

the variable vane (mines fixed vane) can have the boost adjusted on the ecu i know that for a fact. my m8 is running 35-36 psi max with overboost where as oem is 30 max.

with the fixed vane i dont know if you can change it at the ecu but i do know that theres a pipe coming off the wastegate and going back onto the turbo low down. you can tee in here and add a boost gauge and/or a boost controler.

so with this in mind its doubtful it will be controled by the ecu but it could still be possible. if a boost controler was to be fitted and it was ecu controled i would assume that a fault would be logged. i dont really want to fit a boost controler though.

i may be wrong here but i think the electronic unit on top of the pump is what matches it up to the car make and the specific car. this part has immobiliser electronics inside. also theres quite a few video's about removing it on youtube to get repaired.

i have read that they are a common fault for over heating the electrical bits so thats why you would remove it to send it off to be repaired.

this in mind i spoke to a mot guy i know he said he's seen the same pump fail on a transit connect and a ford focus but never a mondeo. and i myself have been on a large ford forum and never known this on a mondeo. i think the reason why is because theres more space around the pump on the mondeo and these engines are well known for overcooling too.

i wouldnt say money is no object but i have a good working spare pump that (if its possible) i could get modified without touching the one on the car, so its just changing it then.

crosshair1

Pump ecu is as common a failure on a mondeo as it is on a focus, same with other marques that use it.

A good buy, before you do any work is this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Diesel-Engine-Management-Robert-Bosch-GmbH/dp/0470026898
I think most of your questions/theories are covered.

couldntthink

I'm not going to add to the nay sayers, even though I do agree with them, but I will say one thing.......

Do it to a fwd Transit instead of a Mondeo.

totalguy

crosshair1 wrote: »

Pump ecu is as common a failure on a mondeo as it is on a focus, same with other marques that use it.

A good buy, before you do any work is this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Diesel-Engine-Management-Robert-Bosch-GmbH/dp/0470026898
I think most of your questions/theories are covered.

i have run tddi's since 2006 and im a member of a very large ford forum which was formerly a dedicated mondeo forum and in my many years of experience on this forum ive never seen a failure of this type reported on a tddi. i have however read of several tdci failures, and consulting a mot tester i know who's been in t he business for 20+ years he's only ever seen focus and transit failures.

i cant read books due to a neurological condition i can however read on screen obviously given i have special software on my computer which allows me to do so it only effects me online when there are huge blocks of text

totalguy

couldntthink wrote: »

I'm not going to add to the nay sayers, even though I do agree with them, but I will say one thing.......

Do it to a fwd Transit instead of a Mondeo.

not my thing sorry. along with performance modifications i have several handling type modifications.

poly bushed subframe bushes, arb's and wishbones as well as coilovers which are all great together it makes so much difference to the handling and the driving experience. the coilovers even aid with braking and acceleration due to they dont lurch like standard or lowered suspension does

basically its alomst like its on rails as well as a firm but comfortable ride.

so to all them people saying get a tdci theres another reason not to all the work thats been done. it would cost many hours of labour to transfer everything over and the only thing that couldnt be transferred over is the turbo unless it was a 115 tdci

i get better mpg than stock tdci's too and better than some modified tdci's so why would iwant to swap for a less reliable car that will cost me more to run ?

Slidey

totalguy wrote: »

i have run tddi's since 2006 and im a member of a very large ford forum which was formerly a dedicated mondeo forum

Well if you cannot get the answer there you have little or no hope here.

You seem to only want to listen to the answers you want to hear. You are intent of raising the power output of your engine and think you have the air sorted, now all you need to do is sort the fuel. You need to go to a Diesel pump repair centre and ask them is they can tweak your pump.

Everything else is only pure speculation until this has been confirmed or denied.

totalguy

Slidey wrote: »

Well if you cannot get the answer there you have little or no hope here.

You seem to only want to listen to the answers you want to hear. You are intent of raising the power output of your engine and think you have the air sorted, now all you need to do is sort the fuel. You need to go to a Diesel pump repair centre and ask them is they can tweak your pump.

Everything else is only pure speculation until this has been confirmed or denied.

i dont want to just listen to answers i want to hear and i find that an insult!!

theres been some very interesting information in this topic although some of it vague. but a lot of it is info not been available elsewhere. a guy in ireland on the said forum recommended here and im glad he did.

i have to put in my point of view especially given my knowledge as it will help aid people replying to my posts given im sharing information i know and have found out.

ive yet to talk to a decent remapper the ones ive talked to so far either just say bring it in and dont give any replies that would aid me in my quest for power its like they dont know and they think they can get money out of me.

1 mapper im waiting for a phonecall off may beable to help but others have said get it done where i had it done before. bit tricky its in the midlands and im in south wales but i may just have to. theyre not diesel specialists but tend to know what theyre doing with remapping.

i am a bit off with people especially the ones telling me to get a tdci if i wanted a tdci id have one thats all there is too it but it seemed to go on and on so i had to say my piece about them.


im still not much wiser even though i know a bit more about the pump i have theres not much info about them some say they cant reach 180 but no one actually knows the limit of these specific pumps fitted to 4 cylinder engines

i guess the only way im going to find out is to phone bosch