Road Safety Authority - National Roads Authority Tolls Proposal

AugustusMinimus

We've all seen the proposal which keeps popping up now and then to increase the number of tolls on our roads as a revenue generating exercise by our "government".

€60m per year I've heard it will bring in. As a lot of people have said here, there are much easier ways to bring in an additional €60m. Hell, there are a lot easier ways, just so that the motorists of this country pick up the bill.

What I don't think has been discussed though is the safety aspect of this. You toll a motorway and you drive people onto N and R roads. We built these motorways in order to increase capacity, reduce journey times and of course, increase the safety of our road network.

In all of this rubbish, has there been a peep out of our beloved RSA in regards these NRA notions. Is the RSA independent of "governement" policy with it's only remit being to increase road safety or is it just a further arm of the "government", will to do it's biding ?

Absurdum

the NRA just pop up with some random report or proposal every now and again to justify their existence since they don't get to build roads anymore. Same with the RSA, they have to come up with "someone think of the children!!!" reports

dr.fuzzenstein

Absurdum wrote: »

the NRA just pop up with some random report or proposal every now and again to justify their existence since they don't get to build roads anymore. Same with the RSA, they have to come up with "someone think of the children!!!" reports

Joined up thinking, or lack thereof.
It's just people trying to justify their jobs at this stage.
If those tolls came in, I'd have to pass through two tolls on my way to work every day, so backroads it is, should this ever come to pass.
It could be the old double bluff though, like proposing a 25% hike in electricity, then "only" hiking it by 15% and everyone is pathetically grateful.
So, they will propose toll booths every 5 meters, someone says "why not put 5 cent on petrol/diesel" and cheers all round.
Time to buy the auld black suit, a 1998 Carina, put sheepdog and bale of straw in it, green diesel, no tax and when stopped, just talk gibberish along the lines of "ahahaaa, grand now, sucking daesel, flyin' it, how's yer father, grand out, how's she cuttin', ahahaha, begorrah, me hole!" and you'll be left alone.
And drive R roads only at 30 km/h whilst looking at cows in the field.
Or get fired from my job, sign on, sell the car, buy an X-Box, put the feet up and say fcuk this for a game of silly buggers, let someone else break their hole keeping a car on the road.
I work for my mortgage and car only as it is, there's nothing in it for me otherwise, so once I'm squeezed even more I'm done for.
Or alternate career, I hear smuggeling diesel and fags is doing well, forget an honest living, it's time to lie, cheat, steal, gouge, embezzle and hoodwink.

Voodoomelon

Its true, you can only push people so far. Especially motorists, as there is already some kind of tax in every single aspect of owning a car, tacking on more will push many over the edge.

Something has to give. People need their cars. Introduce more tolls, people stop paying motor tax. Increase motor tax, people start using agri fuel. Put more tax on fuel, skip the NCT for a year. Look around, lots of people getting away with no tax, f*** it, i'm not paying either, 3 months on, 3 months off.

Or all of the above in many cases.

galwaytt

Here's another thing that pisses me off about tolls: their inaccurate assessment.

Consider, if I had (and I don't...) a Range Rover Vogue/Kahn or Cayenne Turbo S, I'd be charged 1.90 to pass through M6 Toll at Cappataggle.

However, driving the company Caddy, to Ballinasloe yesterday, I got charged 3.20 because...........it's 'commercial'.........are people completely pulling the piss or what.

It cost less in diesel to do the run, than the Toll.

Robbers.

Voodoomelon

Whats that extract from in your sig Galwaytt? Would love a read of the full thing.

Iwannahurl

Roads, current and future, have to be paid for. Where is the money to come from in our current state of national receivership? The country is screwed, partly because of a construction bubble that included road building.

According to the Irish Times:

THE NATIONAL Roads Authority is seeking advice on how to raise additional revenue from new tolls on existing roads, following cuts to its budget.

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has said new tolls to fund road projects or public transport cannot be ruled out.

The authority is paying almost €500,000 a month to the private operators of the M3 motorway and the N18 Limerick Tunnel because traffic has fallen short of anticipated levels.

Apparently this half a million per month is more than the NRA's total revenue from all other tolls.

But if they raise tolls, or add new ones, then it may well drive people off the motorways. Revenues could drop further, in a vicious circle.

So what's the solution? Lower the tolls to increase demand? Where is the revenue to come from while we're still in an economic black hole?

CiniO

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Roads, current and future, have to be paid for. Where is the money to come from

What about income tax we all pay. What about corporate tax all companies pay? What about levy on fuels?
That's a huge money... Where does all that go to?

Roads are needed by everyone - motorists and not.
All economy depends on transport and it's cost.
The bigger the cost of transport, the more economy will struggle.


Sometimes I don't understand. In my home country - Poland - there is no motor tax. Only some motorways are tolled. And even though - they can afford to build and refurbish big amount of roads. In Ireland even drivers pay horendously big motortax, there's still no money for roads.

Voodoomelon

Theres also the aspect of "the motorist has to pay". Why?

Pedestrians and cyclists use the roads sitting at home when the post van pulls up, when they go to the shop and see a 40ft truck delivering their bread in the morning, when they get a taxi to the airport, when they get a bus to work.

Everyone uses the roads, or avails of their advantages either directly or indirectly. Tolling someone on their way to work because there's no bus or train is horrendously unfair.

galwaytt

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Whats that extract from in your sig Galwaytt? Would love a read of the full thing.

Ah.....that's a riposte I made on boards (years ago now), when John Gormley fcuked up the tax and VRT.

I always had the thought to do it, but he sparked me to .........find the (in)famous Colonel Jessup speech from A Few Good Men, and put a car slant on it.

Fits nicely, though, imho. I'm particularly fond of the 'back on the bus' part...

AugustusMinimus

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Roads, current and future, have to be paid for. Where is the money to come from in our current state of national receivership? The country is screwed, partly because of a construction bubble that included road building.

According to the Irish Times:

THE NATIONAL Roads Authority is seeking advice on how to raise additional revenue from new tolls on existing roads, following cuts to its budget.

Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has said new tolls to fund road projects or public transport cannot be ruled out.

The authority is paying almost €500,000 a month to the private operators of the M3 motorway and the N18 Limerick Tunnel because traffic has fallen short of anticipated levels.

Apparently this half a million per month is more than the NRA's total revenue from all other tolls.

But if they raise tolls, or add new ones, then it may well drive people off the motorways. Revenues could drop further, in a vicious circle.

So what's the solution? Lower the tolls to increase demand? Where is the revenue to come from while we're still in an economic black hole?

Whats does one death on our roads costs. Surely increased implementation of tolls will cause an increase in deaths.

In fact, why should we tolerate any unnecessary deaths on our roads for a paltry €60m per year ?

Iwannahurl

CiniO wrote: »

What about income tax we all pay. What about corporate tax all companies pay? What about levy on fuels?

That's a huge money... Where does all that go to?

Roads are needed by everyone - motorists and not.

All economy depends on transport and it's cost.

The bigger the cost of transport, the more economy will struggle.

Sometimes I don't understand. In my home country - Poland - there is no motor tax. Only some motorways are tolled. And even though - they can afford to build and refurbish big amount of roads. In Ireland even drivers pay horendously big motortax, there's still no money for roads.

Nie rozumiem either.

I would have thought that Poland was a much lower cost economy.

However, this recent Forfas report indicates that road construction costs in Ireland are not among the highest in the EU27.

http://www.forfas.ie/media/IAE110621-cost_effective_delivery_of_essential_infrastructure.pdf

galwaytt

Iwannahurl wrote: »

However, this recent Forfas report indicates that road construction costs in Ireland are not among the highest in the EU27.

http://www.forfas.ie/media/IAE110621-cost_effective_delivery_of_essential_infrastructure.pdf

Well, they would, wouldn't they ? Tell the 'truth' and what foreign company will come within an asses roar of us, to build the next road ?

Just look at the budget dilemma in London, over the Olympics. Every single figure was plucked from the sky, and it's 100% - or is it 400% ? - over budget ??

I wouldn't take the word of a body like that to be worth the paper it's written on, tbh.

Iwannahurl

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Theres also the aspect of "the motorist has to pay". Why?

Pedestrians and cyclists use the roads sitting at home when the post van pulls up, when they go to the shop and see a 40ft truck delivering their bread in the morning, when they get a taxi to the airport, when they get a bus to work.

Everyone uses the roads, or avails of their advantages either directly or indirectly. Tolling someone on their way to work because there's no bus or train is horrendously unfair.

Nobody said life was fair!

I pay all the required taxes even as my car sits in the driveway.

Whether I walk, cycle or use the bus instead I am paying directly or indirectly for every other service I avail of.

Except in this country our taxes currently can't pay for everything, which is why we've had to beg from the EU and IMF moneylenders.

Citizens of some other countries, eg the Nordic ones, are used to paying much higher taxes than us. They're also used to much better services, like the machines I saw sweeping all those cycle paths in Copenhagen.

Our tax system, including the part that pays for roads, is a shambles. And we don't get value for money.

That has to change, and that is why we are moving inexorably to a higher tax regime, under pressure from the EU. We resisted higher taxes when we could afford them, and now we resent higher taxes when we have no choice but to impose them because we're broke as a nation. Populism and McCreevey-type neo-liberalism was never sustainable.

jimmycrackcorm

I regularly travel via the M50 and M1 tolls. Occasionally I take the old N2 / Ratoath-Clonee route. I find that avoiding those tolls give me much better fuel economy due to the lower speeds and not much difference in the mileage.

wonski

CiniO wrote: »

Sometimes I don't understand. In my home country - Poland - there is no motor tax. Only some motorways are tolled. And even though - they can afford to build and refurbish big amount of roads. In Ireland even drivers pay horendously big motortax, there's still no money for roads.

The motor tax in Poland is included in the price of petrol, everyone has to pay it. And the roads are not as good as you say... (I am from Poland too, if you didnt know).

Zubeneschamali

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

In all of this rubbish, has there been a peep out of our beloved RSA in regards these NRA notions.

I think this is the most important point: more motorway tolls will push traffic (including heavy traffic) off the motorways and back though our cities, towns and villages which we just spent all that money bypassing.

This will kill people. The RSA should point that out in very clear terms.

[Edit] I just sent them a nice email, asking them to do just that [/Edit]

Del2005

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Whats does one death on our roads costs. Surely increased implementation of tolls will cause an increase in deaths.

In fact, why should we tolerate any unnecessary deaths on our roads for a paltry €60m per year ?

The last report from the RSA I read from 2008 was €3m. Not sure if it's gone up or down, but knowing this country it'll only go up.

Deaths aren't the only issue. There will also be a huge increase in non fatal crashes, which are €800k for serious ones. Then there will be the lost productivity with people and goods stuck in all the old reliable towns.

The NRA may get their €60m but the country will loose much more and unfortunately that includes people.

Del2005

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Nobody said life was fair!

I pay all the required taxes even as my car sits in the driveway.

Whether I walk, cycle or use the bus instead I am paying directly or indirectly for every other service I avail of.

Except in this country our taxes currently can't pay for everything, which is why we've had to beg from the EU and IMF moneylenders.

Citizens of some other countries, eg the Nordic ones, are used to paying much higher taxes than us. They're also used to much better services, like the machines I saw sweeping all those cycle paths in Copenhagen.

Our tax system, including the part that pays for roads, is a shambles. And we don't get value for money.

That has to change, and that is why we are moving inexorably to a higher tax regime, under pressure from the EU. We resisted higher taxes when we could afford them, and now we resent higher taxes when we have no choice but to impose them because we're broke as a nation. Populism and McCreevey-type neo-liberalism was never sustainable.

I have no problem paying extra taxes if we got value from them.

But 1st they need to sort out the public sector and make sure it's something like efficient, for every hard working low paid PS employee there are too many over paid wasters. Yes there are over paid wasters in the private sector, but I don't pay their wages and I can choose between different companies for what I want. There is no way for me not to pay tax, even if I went on the dole I'd still pay it whenever I shop, so none of it should be wasted.

munchkin_utd

CiniO wrote: »

What about income tax we all pay. <snip>

actually, what about the income tax you dont pay!!

35% of workers dont pay a cent. If that 600,000 group of special people were to pay a little, say a tenner a week or barely more than 2 pints - you'd have 312million for little to no pain on the "lower paid".

And the pensioners that have their state pension untaxed and then 20grand tax free allowance on the private pensions!!

Such unaffordable Bertie Bonuses from giveaway budgets should be tackled first before driving people off motorways with tolls.

dr.fuzzenstein

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Nobody said life was fair!

I pay all the required taxes even as my car sits in the driveway.

Whether I walk, cycle or use the bus instead I am paying directly or indirectly for every other service I avail of.

Except in this country our taxes currently can't pay for everything, which is why we've had to beg from the EU and IMF moneylenders.

Citizens of some other countries, eg the Nordic ones, are used to paying much higher taxes than us. They're also used to much better services, like the machines I saw sweeping all those cycle paths in Copenhagen.

Our tax system, including the part that pays for roads, is a shambles. And we don't get value for money.

That has to change, and that is why we are moving inexorably to a higher tax regime, under pressure from the EU. We resisted higher taxes when we could afford them, and now we resent higher taxes when we have no choice but to impose them because we're broke as a nation. Populism and McCreevey-type neo-liberalism was never sustainable.

Well, in the 80's a posh way of being on the dole was to get pulled into the civil service via a well-meaning relative and that's why 20% of the population in Ireland is sitting pretty in government jobs, desperately trying to look busy whilst drawing a fat, guaranteed salary with a gold-plated pension.
THAT's what my taxes are paying for.
Myself and my partner have both been made redundant, I found a job (which sucks ass, but it's the only one I could get), whilst she is trying to find work.
Being honest is all fine and good when your situation hasn't changed, but when you're down a lot of money and your outgoings are starting to overtake your incomings, you need to get creative.
I haven't yet skipped tax, but the tires on my car are very low on profile, but next paycheck there's electricity, car tax, tv licence, internet and a few other things.
My bald tires will just have to last a bit more.
In the future it will be money in the hat and start paying bills till it runs out and the rest can go suck a lemon.
Over the past 20 years we have paid every single bill, I will begrudge the Irish government (bunch of criminals and conmen) the rest of my life the amount of stamp duty I had to pay, we where honest to a fault.
And now I should lose my house because some criminals decided to put it all on red and lost?
They can fcuk off, kiss my ass, I will lie, cheat, steal, gouge, smuggle, evade and fiddle with the best of them, but I will not lose my house over this.
And if this doesn't sit well with the smug, high horse brigade, well they can suck my stinking dick!
And maybe, just maybe we have to retire the three quarters of desk jockeys that do nothing but suck money out of our pockets.

edit:
Not entirely disagreeing with you there. And not attacking you or even your post, but am feeling a bit squeezed.
Simply saying that the government is trying to squeeze more money out of the population, where there isn't any.
The more they squeeze, the more people will loose their home, start cheating on wellfare, evade taxes, cut corners, businesses will go broke because there is no money in the country, this will cause more unemployment, etc...
We are getting into diminishing returns here.

_Kaiser_

Iwannahurl wrote: »

According to the Irish Times:

The authority is paying almost €500,000 a month to the private operators of the M3 motorway and the N18 Limerick Tunnel because traffic has fallen short of anticipated levels.

Well that'd be because the same muppets signed a deal with a private consortium to guarantee a minimum return in the first place - in a recession... with people being laid off left, right and centre... and a lot more cars off the road - and THEN slapped 2 tolls on it so that those who WILL use it (ie: travelling to/from Dublin to work) will have to pay an extra €5.20 per day - more if they have to cross the M50 toll as well. :rolleyes:

Of course let's not forget that EVERYONE is already paying for this road/tunnel as it is (I love the wording that "the authority is paying" - who do you think pays for them?!) and now they want to charge EVERYONE again.. but then of course this is "good ole Ireland", home of the risk-free investment, where even if you lose, you still win (cause the docile sheep that are the taxpayers will foot the bill anyway!) :mad:

dr.fuzzenstein

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well that'd be because the same muppets signed a deal with a private consortium to guarantee a minimum return in the first place - in a recession... with people being laid off left, right and centre... and a lot more cars off the road - and THEN slapped 2 tolls on it so that those who WILL use it (ie: travelling to/from Dublin to work) will have to pay an extra €5.20 per day - more if they have to cross the M50 toll as well. :rolleyes:

Of course let's not forget that EVERYONE is already paying for this road/tunnel as it is (I love the wording that "the authority is paying" - who do you think pays for them?!) and now they want to charge EVERYONE again.. but then of course this is "good ole Ireland", home of the risk-free investment, where even if you lose, you still win (cause the docile sheep that are the taxpayers will foot the bill anyway!) :mad:

I know, desperate stuff. Only goes to show that that deal was agreed by a moron.
Any other country the deal would have been:
YOU build the tunnel and then you pay US, you can keep a few percent of the takings.
That way the rate would have to be competitive.
Now the tunnel can name their price, even if no one uses it, they stuill get paid.
If that was me operating the tunnel, I'd set a price of €10 per car, put my feet up and work out how much money I'm making doing nothing.

CiniO

munchkin_utd wrote: »

actually, what about the income tax you dont pay!!

35% of workers dont pay a cent. If that 600,000 group of special people were to pay a little, say a tenner a week or barely more than 2 pints - you'd have 312million for little to no pain on the "lower paid".

And the pensioners that have their state pension untaxed and then 20grand tax free allowance on the private pensions!!

Such unaffordable Bertie Bonuses from giveaway budgets should be tackled first before driving people off motorways with tolls.

I don't know where did you get those figures, but current working single person tax credit is 3300 euro per annum.
That makek, that first 16,500 euros of your annual income is tax free.
Anyone even on minimum wage of 8.65 per hour working regular 39h a week, earns 17500 per annum, so already pay income tax.

I don't know what is your group of 35% of workers that don't pay income tax at all?

CiniO

wonski wrote: »

The motor tax in Poland is included in the price of petrol, everyone has to pay it. And the roads are not as good as you say... (I am from Poland too, if you didnt know).

That's not correct information.
Motor tax was in force until middle 90's and then it was abandoned. It was paid to local authorities, for the purpose of maintaining the roads.
To compensate a loss to local authorities, government decided, to give 10% of fuel levy to them. But it didn't cause fuel levy to increase.

So no - you can't say it's included in fuel price, as abandonning it, didn't cause fuel levy to increase.

Beside - roads in Poland maybe are not perfect, but are better than in Ireland - that's one thing I'm sure.