Learning how to run

busymum1

Should running come naturally like breathing or is it more like swimming which has techniques that need to be learned?

I'm learning how to run. I haven't run in a long time and am carrying ankle injuries that make my feet very unforgiving when it comes to running. Despite being told after my last attempt at running by a very frustrated physio that some people just aren't made to run, I'm determined to give it another really good effort.

I've been watching runners in the park and also on you tube to get a sense of how people actually run.
I'm interested in opinions on good running form. I don't seem to know how to run properly and have been trying different techniques to see what will work for me.

I've been at this now for about 8 weeks, 4 times a week for an hour. I'm using a mix of chi running and forefoot running techniques. I concentrate a lot on my form while I run. It seems to be working, my distances are getting longer ( very slowly though) and I've avoided injury so far.

Does injury free running come naturally to others? Is it all about form? Can you forget how to run?

RayCun

Good running form doesn't come naturally to everyone, as you can tell by watching people run! The thing that always strikes me as weird is people who swivel their upper body around as they run, which always looks like so much wasted effort. Or people running half bent over, which looks like it would be really painful after a while.

(I think I'm the opposite, too straight and erect, should be leaning forward a little more. And my legs wobble all over the place, and probably a load of other things that other people see when I'm running...:) )

mbiking123

Hello

Why not try a cross trainer that they have in most gym's. They are supposed to have the same motion as running but dont have the impact problem with ordinary running.

Are you wearing correct 'running runners'. Wrong footwear can also cause problems. John Buckley sport in Cork is one guy that I know of that can advise the type of runner you need, he has a special mat that shows if you run too heavy on inside of foot as an example

Would you consider Fartlek running, possibly you are running at the one speed constantly. I have been told that a more strenous workout for a shorter time period is better than a lower intensity longer workout.

I have been told that sometimes people run incorrectly to protect some area, resulting in more pressure in a different area and then end up injuring somewhere else. By any chance do you have back problems ? I know people with back problems that causes problems with running.

Best of luck with training

Clearlier

busymum1 wrote: »

Should running come naturally like breathing or is it more like swimming which has techniques that need to be learned?

I'm learning how to run. I haven't run in a long time and am carrying ankle injuries that make my feet very unforgiving when it comes to running. Despite being told after my last attempt at running by a very frustrated physio that some people just aren't made to run, I'm determined to give it another really good effort.

I've been watching runners in the park and also on you tube to get a sense of how people actually run.
I'm interested in opinions on good running form. I don't seem to know how to run properly and have been trying different techniques to see what will work for me.

I've been at this now for about 8 weeks, 4 times a week for an hour. I'm using a mix of chi running and forefoot running techniques. I concentrate a lot on my form while I run. It seems to be working, my distances are getting longer ( very slowly though) and I've avoided injury so far.

Does injury free running come naturally to others? Is it all about form? Can you forget how to run?

It sounds to me like you're doing pretty well.

For some people injury free running does seem to come naturally - at least for a while anyway.

Some core work seems to help a lot of people.

Generally I've found that stretching tends to push a problem into another area (but will give you relief for a while) and you just keep adding stretches to your routine. For that reason I'm currently think that whole body movements such as in yoga might be the way to go. Ask me again in 6 months though and I'll probably have changed my mind.

A good principle for injury free running is to do less than you could do in any one training session. The thinking is that when you strain you start losing your form and that's when injuries are more likely to occur.

Final point is that you should get another physio. That kind of defeatist attitude could easily permeate through to their treatment of you not to mention that you want somebody who's supportive not somebody who gets you down everytime you see them!

Murta

Yes and No. We were born to run but have forgotten how. Watch how free and easy a child runs. Slouching over a desk in School all day and later in office, we've trained our bodies to move in unnatural ways.
Learning new techniques like ChiRunning and Pose and adapting them to suit your specific running style (biomechanics) will help you to run more efficiently and less injury prone. Core stength will also help unless you're naturally extremely flexible. I'm a particular fan of pilates.

The initial learning curve is steep but you'll find your body adapting to running over time.

You mentioned that you have or had some ankle injuries. it's worth looking into exercises to strengthen your feet. A decent sports physio (preferably one who runs him/herself) will help pinpointing relevant exercises to address your specific weak spots.

I myself have boimechanically poor feet - flat as a pancake, one leg longer than the other, hammer toes - custom made orthotics helps somewhat. Improving core strength and fexiblity does it bit too. Another noticeable difference for me was learning and adapting ChiRunning.

Probabely one of the most important things you can do is learn to listen to your body. Rest when you need it even if you have a run planned, slow down or even cut a run short. Let your body dictate how quikcly/slowly you build up the running miles and what type of sesssions you do. Sometimes taking a week or two off can improve running - running miles accumulates.

airscotty

Check out Radcliff in this video

busymum1

Thanks for all the replies. It's fascinating stuff.. It's amazing the difference in running form out there.

In fairness to my physio ( a very experienced sports physio overseas)at my last attempt at running I think he just felt that all the injuries and time off other activities weren't worth it. I finally gave up after a run of other injuries and a really bad trochanteric bursitis that he took weeks to get sorted and made it really difficult to do anything even walk. I'm pretty active and have a reasonable level of fitness, I get a bit of core and resistance work in but could do with a bit more.

I think I'll just have to be patient this time and concentrate on form and staying injury free, instead of giving into the temptation to cover distance and get injured.. I'm rapidly becoming a convert to chi running though. Increasing my cadence to 85 bpm seems to be doing the trick. I'm hoping I can avoid physio trips for a while..

Thanks again for the replies.. Fingers crossed for 10km runs outdoors at a reasonable pace, injury free.. ( not asking for much am I )

robroy1234

There are dubious characters putting themselves as experts in running and setting up schools of running, yet have no experience in athletics at all, or the required qualifications and knowledge. The set up by these people are "biomechanical interventions" based on analysis on a treadmill - flawed on many levels. In running biomechanics is dependent on physiological adaption to exercise and not vice versa., the treadmill is a poor tool for gait and biomechanical analysis for various reasons. The best economical way to learn to run is to join an athletics club for about €50 per year, which is far better than spending €300 - €400 for 6 six weeks.

RoyMcC

robroy1234 wrote: »

There are dubious characters putting themselves as experts in running and setting up schools of running, yet have no experience in athletics at all, or the required qualifications and knowledge. The set up by these people are "biomechanical interventions" based on analysis on a treadmill - flawed on many levels. In running biomechanics is dependent on physiological adaption to exercise and not vice versa., the treadmill is a poor tool for gait and biomechanical analysis for various reasons. The best economical way to learn to run is to join an athletics club for about €50 per year, which is far better than spending €300 - €400 for 6 six weeks.

Interesting post - though could you expand on 'flawed on many levels' and 'poor tool for various reasons'? Also, are there characters who are not 'dubious' in this business?

You have great faith in an athletics club being able to coach a beginner in personal running technique - not my experience.

Not necessarily disagreeing with any of your post but there are many generalities...

robroy1234

'flawed on many levels' and 'poor tool for various reasons'?

When running on the road, track, grass the surface on which you are running is ordinarily a solid structure, the action of running requires various interactive forces such as friction between the bottom of the feet and the ground. Running is made possible by the action of the feet pushing the ground away and behind you. This propels the body forward ahead of the centre of gravity. The neural muscular firing pattern of the muscles in the legs are stimulated in such a way in order to run. The treadmill however has the surface on which you are running on moving beneath you negating friction between foot and surface. As you are then not pushing the ground beneath and away from you the neuro-muscular firing patterns in the legs are stimulated differently - imagine the difference between picking up an empty box thinking it weighs 10kg, your neuro-muscular firing pattern would be stimulated to the degree of lifting a heavy box and not an empty box. As the belt of the treadmill moves the surface beneath you your centre of gravity remains in place which will indicate that your biomechanics would be different to running on a solid surface.
These people only do assessment based on biomechanics - which in itself is also flawed when considered in isolation. The biggest factor is your physiological fitness level. For example if you are wanting to run a mile say 4:10 and you are only capable of running 4:30, no matter what biomechanical alterations is done, 4:10 is beyond the physiological ability. However if you were to run at a greater pace than you are physiologically capable off you would unable to maintain biomechanical form.
If anyone is charging €300 - €400 for 6 weeks are indeed dubious, especially when these fellas have absolutely no athletic experience at all - so they would have no intimate knowledge of how to pace/race, fartlek training etc.,
Of course I have more faith in an athletics coach than so-called "running expert" even though not in your experience, the coach and club has backing and support of the AAI, whereas these experts do not.

RoyMcC

That critique makes sense to me anyway, as a layman. Will anyone here challenge it?

I'd say though that most people would be seeking guidance in this area not to improve speed necessarily but to run more efficiently and at a lesser risk of injury. Surely a well-trained and experienced coach could use biomechanical analysis as a tool to supplement his/her other work? They are the only people that ought to be taking money off people anyway.

I'm afraid though that your general club coach is well able to set sessions and give generic advice, but does not (and maybe should not) seek to alter an individual's basic technique. OK - the usual adjustments to produce a better overall action but little beyond that.

robroy1234

Biomechanics and gait analysis are over-exagerated and too much emphasis is placed on them. In terms of running efficiency you need to look at the physiology of running and run to the physiological requirements of the distance that is to be run, and not the biomechanics. What I mean here is that if you want to run a 10km, half-marathon, marathon you train to the physiological requirements of running those distances. Whereas biomechanics only looks at the physical structure of the body when running without any reference to the physiological needs. The fitter you get physiologically the more efficient you get in running, not the other way round. Consider running a marathon - a person who is physiologically trained to run the marathon will always beat someone whom maybe biomechanically efficient but physiologically untrained.
As an athlete and sport scientist myself I consider these charlatans as unscrupulous con-men - funny enough they avoid promoting themselves at road races, track meets and cross country races.

joanne.jo

I have wanted to start running for a long time I know that probably sounds mad as I am sure everyone can run. I do quite a lot of walking and I find that I am fairly good at it but running is a totally different ball game. I have only been getting fit the last year and recently have given up the smokes after 18 years now its early days but I'm still off them ..

Okay that is the background of me, but my main questions are how do you start ? Should I walk as I normally do and jog part of the way, and then run part of the way or what do you do? Ya I have been watching others as they run yes every body has their own way so I am totally confused .. I'm afraid I'll look like Phobe in friends running I think I'm giving up too easily ..

RayCun

The couch to 5k plan

Loads of people (including me) have used it to start running.

Or find your local Fit4life group

robroy1234

Joanne - Running is incredibly simple and not at all complex. The only people who make it sound complex are those people who are out to make money - up €300 for 6 weeks of nothing but rubbish....first of all the way you have started - walking with intermediate spurts of jogging is the best way to start...you should always start easy and comfortably and these spurts you build up over a period of time. You should always listen to your body and go by how you feel. The best surface to run on is with barefeet on grass - this does wonders for your feet, and strengthens your arches, calves and legs. But, unfortunately the kind of weather that we have and the access to appropriate grassy areas is restrictive. You can get yourself running shoes such as Vibram Five Fingers - but sometimes just running on grass with an old pair of socks will suffice just as well. Do not get into the trap of buying overly expensive running shoes - the vast majority of specialised running shoes are not worth the price and do not do anything for your running. A light weight pair of neutral shoes should suffice and none of these motion control, anti-pronation etc., shoes...if you go into a shop and they do foot scan or gait analysis on you and recommend an expensive supination/motion control shoe etc., they are only doing so to get money from you - commission is an incentive on their part and your running is off no concern to them. If you can join an athletics club or a fit4life club., and they should have someone who is not only experienced in running but also highly knowledgeable.

joanne.jo

Thanks Ray, the couch to 5k plan have you tried that yourself? So you basically jog and walk for the entire 20 minutes, okay well I will try anything once .. I really envy those runners that just fly past you and it seems so effortless but I am sure they all started like me too obviously I don't have their fitness level yet either but hopefully by the summer I might be able to run a few miles at least .. My aim is to run the 'RUN FOR LIFE' in Waterford next year instead of walking it the last few years

RayCun

joanne.jo wrote: »

Thanks Ray, the couch to 5k plan have you tried that yourself? So you basically jog and walk for the entire 20 minutes, okay well I will try anything once .. I really envy those runners that just fly past you and it seems so effortless but I am sure they all started like me too obviously I don't have their fitness level yet either but hopefully by the summer I might be able to run a few miles at least .. My aim is to run the 'RUN FOR LIFE' in Waterford next year instead of walking it the last few years

Yes - I'm one of those runners who seem to be effortlessly flying past you and I started running a couple of years ago with that training plan. It's very easy to follow - three sessions a week, less than half an hour each, and each is a mix of walking and running. Over the ten weeks you run more and walk less. There are podcasts you can listen to to tell you when to run and walk (I used the Robert Ullrey ones), and there's a thread here of other people who followed the same plan.

joanne.jo

Thanks robroy1234, I work shifts so unfortunately I am not able to join a club which is a pity as there seems to be great team spirit and support also. I have recently joined a hill walking club and getting loads of walking and treking done and I really love it ... Yes I do need a new pair of runners so like you said I shouldnt have to spend a fortune I have wonky feet so I need something that is comfortable, supportive and wide fitting. Would a normal pair of Nike be okay? I'll look into it, so stopping and starting is the key thank you so much again for taking the time to respond

robroy1234

Don't be duped by people who constantly say that you have bad feet so that they can sell you expensive shoes. The majority of people do not need any of these shoes nor orthotics - the whole "Flat Feet" syndrome is a marketing tool - I used to work for a company that did this practice as the owners where only interesting in fleecing customers. Out of hundreds of people I only came across two people who actually had flat feet - and both were morbidly obese. There are simple exercises that you can do to build up the strength in the feet, arches and calves - like picking up marbles with your toes, towel crunching with the toes, wobble board or matress-stork., Shoes should be well fitted, soft and comfortable and none of this rubbish about having a thumb nails width at the front....The problem with the sale of shoes here in Ireland is that shoe companies market shoes for problems that do not exist - therefore creating a market need for people with expendable income. In Africa where runners cannot afford expensive shoes, shoe companies do not bother with these over-priced shoes as Africans cannot afford them - so African runners have their feet and legs are in better condition.
I get my running shoes on the internet - I know my size and I get shoes that I know will fit great and for a price between €30 - €45.. a shoe costing more than €90 is not worth it. I go for Nike Presto - light weight, comfortable and virtually impossible to get blisters.

joanne.jo

robroy1234 wrote: »

Don't be duped by people who constantly say that you have bad feet so that they can sell you expensive shoes. The majority of people do not need any of these shoes nor orthotics - the whole "Flat Feet" syndrome is a marketing tool - I used to work for a company that did this practice as the owners where only interesting in fleecing customers. Out of hundreds of people I only came across two people who actually had flat feet - and both were morbidly obese. There are simple exercises that you can do to build up the strength in the feet, arches and calves - like picking up marbles with your toes, towel crunching with the toes, wobble board or matress-stork., Shoes should be well fitted, soft and comfortable and none of this rubbish about having a thumb nails width at the front....The problem with the sale of shoes here in Ireland is that shoe companies market shoes for problems that do not exist - therefore creating a market need for people with expendable income. In Africa where runners cannot afford expensive shoes, shoe companies do not bother with these over-priced shoes as Africans cannot afford them - so African runners have their feet and legs are in better condition.
I get my running shoes on the internet - I know my size and I get shoes that I know will fit great and for a price between €30 - €45.. a shoe costing more than €90 is not worth it. I go for Nike Presto - light weight, comfortable and virtually impossible to get blisters.

okay great stuff I will look into that today, I have bunions on both feet sadly inherited from my mum, size 5 just find they are hurting a little bit lately so I need to make sure my foot wear is up to scratch you know. It's weird I feel kinda excited yet slightly anxious about trying this running lark out but at the moment after giving up the cigarettes I feel like I can do anything .. I do have a few running friends and they keep telling me its a slow process but worth it in the end .. I've been reading the thread on ' Couch to 5k' REALLY helpful to read what other people have been through .. so glad I asked now yay !!

BobMac104

The presto looks like it has a massive heel on it Robroy. Would you not go with a pair of flats instead if you were so inclined?

brownian

I'm wondering is there a bit of gentle arm-chancing going on here? It's certainly not my impression of the collective wisdom (nor of my own experience) that one type of shoes is best for everyone, that nobody pronates or supinates, that nobody needs shoes that address these issues. And while shops are certainly in the business of making money (like everyone else), it might not be entirely just to suggest that reputation and customer service are not ancillary goals, at least for some.

I'm not in a position to comment on people who make money teaching "how to run", but there have been some pretty positive posts about the Chi Running courses run by a well known female athlete... are these direct reflections of experience also of no value ?

Personally, I'm not bothered one way or the other by the opinions expressed on here, but I'm a bit surprised that nobody else has picked up on this, if only to provide a little balance.

b.harte

I work shift.
I'm an ex-heavy smoker, ex heavy-drinker, and at the minute getting to be an ex-heavy
When I started to jog I could only manage about 300mtrs.
I started slowly, jog 300 walk 700 and so on.
then went jog 500 walk 500 and so on until I could (just do 1km)
After the initial shock I was soon looking forward to my 3km "run"
Then 5, then 8, and then a 10!!!
My dogs used to sit and wait for me to catch up.
3 years later I now run.
I run 3 days a week at all different times depending of if I am on days or nights and I find it hard to follow a rigid plan so I sort of combined a few to make my own.
My long runs are now 30km or greater my recovery runs are slow 10km and I do 15km tempo runs. Each is on a given day (depending on shift) with a bit of slide, if I can't make one day I can rotate or offset a day.
I run in towns, on forest roads and quiet country roads.
The single biggest thing I did was found some running buddies. There are days I just don't want to go out but a pre-arranged place and time is hard to get out of.
If you are already out and about hill walking you have a good start, where there are hills there are runners.
As for shoes...
I can only go on my own experience, good shoes can be got cheap but only when you know what you are looking for. Fancy gait analysis is a bit hit and miss but depending on where you are based there is sure to be a well respected knowledgeable store nearby.
I'm a bit sceptical on the shoe side of things, I know I overpronate, more on one side due to an old injury, but my most comfortable and long distance shoe is technically Neutral, as are both of my trail shoes and my other shoes fall somewhere into stability shoes? I think myself that as I run more I "adapt" to running. What I mean is my whole style of running is different depending on the run I am doing. I am more relaxed with a slightly springy stride for long runs, more upright or even forward for shorter faster runs, so I can get away with certain types of shoes.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.

Couch to 5k is a great plan, see if there are others at work who might be interested in running, sports and social club perhaps? Failing that just tip away yourself, runners are generally sociable a nod and a wave is all it takes. Lots of clubs will have people who work all sorts of hours, it's such a part of how we live now so think of a club as somewhere to facilitate group runs.

Anyway, there isn't really a good reason not to run, so give it a go.

busymum1

HI Joanne.Jo,
I used a podcast from Carli, http://runningintoshape.com/5k-training-downloads/
I liked her music and her voice but there's loads out there. I had a gait analysis at a specialist running shop for new shoes and just stuck at it. I'm still running and getting better and better at it. I found the chi running book helped me a bit but you'll have to find what works for you. I also got a good book by Paula Radcliffe (How to run) which I found very helpful (simple stretches and strength work). Now I use the micoach (free) app on an android phone and Johnny Wilkinson's voice prompts me every 250 metres to keep at it. It helps!
I'm still not a fast runner or a long distance runner but I get out there and try. And now I actually enjoy it. That's what counts. Good luck!
ps buy a foam roller for your sore legs..

robroy1234

Bobmac - the Presto has changed over the past few years and originally didn't have such a substantial heel, but it is still a very lightweight shoe, the best however is that there is no stitching etc., on the upper so there is no undue pressure or blistering on top of the foot. I have run 5 sub 70 minute half-marathons in them.
In regards to the whole running shoe market - the purpose is to make money and so selling unnecessary extras is a priority, given that in East Africa athletes get the running right first then followed by the selection of the right shoes. The best thing I suggest is to start with barefoot jogging on grass (if cold and wet wear an old pair of socks or vibram five fingers) this will strengthen the feet, calves and legs, and your body position will be in the natural position. In relation to shoes that "motion control" - "pronation - supination etc., are all a marketing con...these are marketing ploys to create a need from nothing, and cause more lower leg problems then supposed to prevent. A proper fitting, light weight neutral running shoe is all that is required.
I am in the process of setting up the Elite Performance Sport Science Centre here in Westport, County Mayo - for all types of running - road running, track, mountain running, recreational and fitness for other sports.