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Why not barrier free tolling on all tolls?

  • 23-08-2011 1:01pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    I was just thinking, why don't we use the barrier free tolling video number plate recognition used on the M50 on all toll roads.

    The M50 barrier free tolling has been pretty successful, why not extend it to all the other toll roads.

    The advantage for drivers is not having to slow down to use a toll and the resulting tail backs this can cause. The advantage for the tool operators is they wouldn't need to employ so many staff to man the tolls, etcs.

    Anyone know why this hasn't happened?

    I can only assume that the costs of ripping up and replacing the current toll boots would cost more then the savings in staff etc.

    Fair enough, however what I can't understand is why the new tolls recently opened aren't video tolls from the start.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭ D.L.R.


    I think the M50 automated toll was developed primarily to combat congestion, as part of the M50 upgrade, so its not much of an issue for the intercity tolls.

    Be nice if they did something about the eastlink toll mind you, like abolish it. :)


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,044 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    There is a net INCREASE in staff costs due to the call centre staff, admin staff, appeals staff etc.

    Its not cost effective, it was used on the M50 due to congestion not to save money.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    MYOB wrote: »
    There is a net INCREASE in staff costs due to the call centre staff, admin staff, appeals staff etc.

    Its not cost effective, it was used on the M50 due to congestion not to save money.

    If all the tolls could use one call center, etc. then it might not cost more.

    I know it won't happen, but just saying it seems sort sighted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,087 ✭✭✭ veryangryman


    bk wrote: »
    If all the tolls could use one call center, etc. then it might not cost more.

    I know it won't happen, but just saying it seems sort sighted.

    Alot of logistics involved.

    Would need to hire probably twice the number of staff which may not all fit in the one call centre so may need to open a second with all its associated costs.

    Id like to see it happen, but when you consider...

    M6 Birmingham Toll
    Severn Bridge(s) Toll
    New Jersey Turnpike and every other toll around New York area


    All roads with MAJOR backups at times yet the barriers dont get removed. You should consider us extremely lucky that E-Flow was invented - were one of the few countries thats implemented it.

    And very, very well might i add


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,044 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    bk wrote: »
    If all the tolls could use one call center, etc. then it might not cost more.

    I know it won't happen, but just saying it seems sort sighted.

    That only brings in some economies of scale for back office operations. Not the number of staff required.

    And as angry mentions there, there is a maximum size to a call centre before it becomes unmanageable...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭ D.L.R.


    You should consider us extremely lucky that E-Flow was invented.

    I'd feel even luckier if the M50 was toll free :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,967 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    I'd feel even luckier if the M50 was toll free :)

    It can be, loose two wheels:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,087 ✭✭✭ veryangryman


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    I'd feel even luckier if the M50 was toll free :)


    Indeed. As ive said elsewhere, it could be replaced with a city congestion charge to encourage more use of public transport


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 antoobrien


    Indeed. As ive said elsewhere, it could be replaced with a city congestion charge to encourage more use of public transport

    Fortunately due to the lack of sufficient PT Leo shot this down a few weeks ago. I tend to agree with the reasons he has given.
    But the recommendations were immediately rejected by Mr Varadkar. Cities with a congestion charge in place -- including Oslo and London -- already had a high quality public transport system which offered commuters an alternative, he told the Irish Independent.

    "Irish cities are not currently able to provide such an extensive public transport alternative," he said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,368 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Fortunately due to the lack of sufficient PT Leo shot this down a few weeks ago. I tend to agree with the reasons he has given.

    chicken and egg situation - Dublin Bus's operations are severely hampered by congestion, reduce congestion and the public transport situation will improve.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭ teol


    Indeed. As ive said elsewhere, it could be replaced with a city congestion charge to encourage more use of public transport

    All that needs to be done is:


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,407 ✭✭✭✭ Stark


    teol wrote: »

    I don't see how that would help. I have a parking space in work but I cycle most days. Under the proposed parking levy, I'd be charged regardless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭ teol


    Stark wrote: »
    I don't see how that would help. I have a parking space in work but I cycle most days. Under the proposed parking levy, I'd be charged regardless.

    Already covered
    4.4 Occasional permission to use a parking space
    Where an employee does not otherwise have entitlement to use a parking space, permission which is occasionally given to use a space is exempt from the levy provided that the total number of days involved in any year does not exceed 10 days. For the purposes of this exemption, use of a parking space for part of a day is treated as use for a full day.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/parking-levy-guidance.html#section4


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,044 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    teol wrote: »
    All that needs to be done is:

    The parking levy wasn't implemented because its blatantly unenforceable. Expect to see every space marked "visitor" with clamping for people without "visitor passes"

    The Corpo raising car parking fees won't affect long term parkers as they don't use Corpo spaces due to time limits. The state can't force private car park holders to increase theirs.

    Bus gates - this one is workable, assuming they are enforced and commercial vehicles are allowed through. Starving the city of commercial access is a sure fire way to ensure businesses leave.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭ teol


    MYOB wrote: »
    The parking levy wasn't implemented because its blatantly unenforceable. Expect to see every space marked "visitor" with clamping for people without "visitor passes"

    The Corpo raising car parking fees won't affect long term parkers as they don't use Corpo spaces due to time limits. The state can't force private car park holders to increase theirs.

    Bus gates - this one is workable, assuming they are enforced and commercial vehicles are allowed through. Starving the city of commercial access is a sure fire way to ensure businesses leave.

    Perth introduced a parking levy in 1999. I am just back from Nottingham and they are bringing in one next year. Nottingham is like Dublin so it will be interesting to see their experiences.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/nottingham/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8510000/8510763.stm


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,044 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    teol wrote: »
    Perth introduced a parking levy in 1999. I am just back from Nottingham and they are bringing in one next year. Nottingham is like Dublin so it will be interesting to see their experiences.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/nottingham/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8510000/8510763.stm

    Being introduced elsewhere doesn't mean its actually been enforceable elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭ irishguy


    There should just be a €200 or more parking space tax per year in the city centre. No exemptions i.e. including government, private spaces, on street. Then use the money to improve public transport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭✭ EI787


    What about something like this, as is the case in a number of US states:

    Tri-State-Tollway-Reconstruction.aspx?width=300


    Route_895_Toll_WB_0502.jpg


    The lanes continue straight on, with a gantry above for barrier-free tolling, like the M50. However, for those without a tag, there is the traditional toll booth just to the side. Those with a tag are rewarded with no need to slow down; but those without are not penalised and can simply pay in the normal way.

    Even though we have the fast lane at tolls for tags, you still need to slow down to about 50km/h. Being able to continue at normal speed would be great.

    Not sure how cost-effective the whole thing is though....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭ teol


    MYOB wrote: »
    Being introduced elsewhere doesn't mean its actually been enforceable elsewhere.

    Why would it not be enforceable? It would be just like PRSI being deducted from your pay check.
    Employers are obliged to deduct the levy
    from employees who have an entitlement to
    use employer-provided parking facilities.
    The levy must be deducted from employee’s
    net salary payments after PAYE, PRSI
    and income levy are deducted and remit
    the amount deducted to the Office of the
    Collector-General under the PAYE system.

    http://download.pwc.com/ie/pubs/introduction_of_employee_car_parking_levy.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,967 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    loyatemu wrote: »
    chicken and egg situation - Dublin Bus's operations are severely hampered by congestion, reduce congestion and the public transport situation will improve.

    DB's problems go much future then congestion. The fact that the vast majority of their routes are into the centre is one of the major obstacles and that's the governments fault.

    Do you honestly believe that the majority of commuters want to drive? Personally if I could sleep on the way to work I'd love it. And I know several people who hate having to drive but have no alternative if they want to keep their jobs.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,967 ✭✭✭✭ Del2005


    teol wrote: »

    Who has a huge percentage of parking spaces in Dublin?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,044 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    teol wrote: »
    Why would it not be enforceable? It would be just like PRSI being deducted from your pay check.

    Because, as I said, employers would claim that all their spaces are visitor spaces. There would be no way the state could disprove this without spending far more than the potential revenue on enforcement.

    Its unenforceable and that is why they've announced they won't be implementing it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    The subsidiary of Sanef made 7% net profit, this is after excluding payments to the NRA, Sanef, and various kickbacks from their gross margin.
    Considering abnormal utility would be looking for a return of 3-5%, the ghost of raphael buerk has not gone to rest in peace


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,044 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Some, probably a tiny, amount of that profit is the profit made from being a tag operator is it not? eFlow get a commission from every time my van goes through a toll barrier anywhere, which is most often the M4 and M3 ones for me, not their M50. Work decided on eFlow tags...


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