help needed with accountants fee

Marcanthony

Hi,
What is the current fee approx. for a small limited company with a turnover of less than 70k with audited accounts.One man company.
Thanks.

Hanley

Did you miss your last CRO filing deadline?! You may not need audited accounts....

Marcanthony

Hi Hanley,
What happened was I never filed the returns 6 mths after setting up the company or the accounts for the following year. However I got an accountant to sort this out at an incredible high price.All accounts are up to date now and his fee is massive again

smcgiff

Marcanthony wrote: »

Hi Hanley,
What happened was I never filed the returns 6 mths after setting up the company or the accounts for the following year. However I got an accountant to sort this out at an incredible high price.All accounts are up to date now and his fee is massive again

What's massive these days?

dbran

Hi Macarthony

If the accounts are late filing in the CRO then the company will require an audit for two years afterwards even if you bring everything up to date.

There is a lot more work involved in preparing an audit file then just an an audit exempt company as it is a lot more regulated. This is despte effectively the same end product being delivered to the client.

Kind Regards


dbran

Marcanthony

Hi smcgiff,
What is massive these days. 3600 euro for book keeping services and a total fee of 6200 excluding vat per year for accountants services.Bearing in mind this company is very low volume.
Vat return and approx 10 invoices for purchases/expenditure and 1 or 2 sales invoices per mth some mths no sales . No pay role.
I asked accountant what price to close company as these fees are to high to continue .Bearing in mind this company has no assets or liabilities. He quoted myself €1400 excl vat. He said he usually charges 3400 exc vat. Do you think hes taking the piss or are these standard prices.

Marcanthony

Hi dbran,

What would be the average price for an audit file for an company not exempt .

Your opinion would be much appreciated. As I have handed over in fees to the accountant I employed. Approx 18k inc vat and I only employed him 12 mths ago. I just want to try find out if hes taking me for a ride before I approach him about his fees.

The accounts are all up to date and paid for including the audited files ect. Penalties paid for late returns.Company was established late 2008 and we are up to date till 2010. The fee for this year is 6200 excluding vat and that will include the audited file and bookeeping ect mentioned above.

kennyb3

Hi Marcanthony,

That seems hugely excessive, but as always id qualify that with the fact we dont know the ins and outs of it.

But if there were no massive issues and given the level of turnover and the fact its an audit id expect to see a €2.5k max fee and probably less.

There are plenty of straight forward small audits that can be done for circa €1k.

Bookkeeping would be seperate and again would depend on the level of transactions but it shouldnt be €3.6k (or even close)

If you are dublin/leinster based and need a quote PM me.

dbran

+1 to that!

I would say an audit for a company this size should be in and around the €1000 mark. This assumes that you write up the books in a simple excel file and balance the bank.

The VAT and PAYE can all be sorted out out at the time of the year end. If you go on direct debit with the revenue there will only be one annual P35 and VAT return. So say €300 for that.

As the others have said we dont know the further ins and outs of the case. It could be that you are not giving everything to the accountant on time or what you are giving is incomplete.

Also are you sure you are not including the late filing fee with the CRO in this cost? This fee could easily be €1200 for each annual return that is late.

Kind Regards


dbran

Marcanthony

Thanks for your replies to date.

When I first went to him. He had to go back over the accounts to late 2008.To bring all up to date till 2010.His fee all together was approx 9,500k for this excl. vat.(all other fees not included in this fee .Late fees ect)I had an idea he was robbing myself as he quoted 25 euro per hour for the book Keeping.(300 hours of book keeping. Low volume company & was completed in approx 2 weeks)

I was under pressure and needed this done.I Did not want revenue on my back. However I paid what he asked for and just took for granted the fee would be a lot lower after all was brought up to date by him.
Then I got his bill for this year.I asked him for a break down. He said 300 per mth (exc vat) for book keeping.Bearing in mind some mths no sales and its low volume & 2600 (exc vat) his fee for audit file and what ever else is involved with a limited company.

Am I been robbed.

Peppa

I'm ashamed to say it sounds like you are getting royally ripped off.

Can you document everything and put in a formal complaint to whichever Institute he is a member of? Alternatively tell him you will do so unless he refunds you some fees paid?

kennyb3

It doesnt sound good anyway to say the least. €300pm for bookkeeping is extortionate. 300 per quarter would even be a bit much with a decent level of transactions which isnt the case from what your saying.

Maybe look at getting a seperate independent bookkeeper. There are plenty of good ones out there so try get a recommendation.

They should sort out that side of things and then you only need a registered auditor for the audit.

smcgiff

Marcanthony wrote: »

Am I been robbed.

Robbed is probably too strong a word, but...

Marcanthony

Accountants reply ia email below. Any advice.Please help. I always pay my bills. but this is a princible issue.

Accountants response.....I have no intention of meeting you to discuss my fees. I am a busy person and cannot spend my valuable time listening to complaining about having to pay accountants fees

kennyb3

Marcanthony wrote: »

Accountants reply ia email below. Any advice.Please help. I always pay my bills. but this is a princible issue.

Accountants response.....I have no intention of meeting you to discuss my fees. I am a busy person and cannot spend my valuable time listening to complaining about having to pay accountants fees

Dont think you should be posting his reply on a public forum.

His language doesnt sound very business like and the response seems a bit strange if you ask me.

Call into his offices or ideally ring and ask the secretary for an appointment to see him. If he wants your business back im sure he ll be happy to meet you.

I just hope this thread doesnt go downhill from here - seems to be a lot of complaints about accountants, fees, sevice etc lately.

I think we ve done our best to help you anyway.

upnorthchick

Your accoutant emailed that reply? i am ashamed to say i will soon (hopefully) be a chartered accountant if there are eejits like that practicing. I know in my practice we make meetings for clients to come in and discuss fees with management....

just a thought but i have heard that some accountants charge large fees to get rid of clients too? could this be the case.

also if he is doing your book keeping and accounts - your end of year accounts should take no time at all to complete... altho then you have the audit.

Marcanthony

hi kenny,
i hope this thread does not go down hill.I am trying to seek advice from people with experience in this field of expertees to how best mitigate this issue and try to find out if this accountant is been reasonable as a profession i respect the services accountants provide and i would appreciate the replys i am recieving through this tread.For piece of mind i am seeking this advice.

Marcanthony

Hi upnorthchick,
Think that email was bad. Read this one. I need help or advice on what to do or who to complain to. With this accountant since day 1 all he is interested is in his fees and if you give him rope he takes lead.(He quotes myself 25 euro per hour for bookeeping and confirmed in an email)Then its 300 per mth.

Accountants email
I do not have to justify me fee to you. This fee was agreed with you at our last meeting and I would suggest you bring a pen with you in future and record such detail.

The bookkeeping carried out for the months2010 to 2011 inc’ is charged as at €300 plus VAT as agreed.

Preparation of financial accounts for the year ending 31/12/2010 fee reduced as per your request to €1,800 plus VAT.

dbran

Hi Marcanthony

Did you actually agree the fee? €300 per month bookkeeping and €1800 for the final accounts? Is that what he charged? Was the work done to your satisfaction?

I hope this thread is not going to turn into another accountant bashing rant about fees.

dbran

angelfire9

Am I the only one that is not only stunned by the fees but by the attitude of the accountant?? :eek:

OP at a minimum I'd be looking elsewhere to get your book-keeping done I don't do auditing myself (never have hate audits) but I would have thought that circa €2-3k would be more than enough for a small ish company particularly if he is doing the books the audit should be a breeze

dbran

Hi

The fee is outragously high and the email he sent is also not very professional.

But my question is, did the OP agree the fee with the accountant at a meeting before the work started. Did he do the work agreed? Is what he charged what was agreed?

The email posted suggests that he did.

Regards

dbran

J.Ryan

Marcanthony wrote: »

Hi smcgiff,
What is massive these days. 3600 euro for book keeping services and a total fee of 6200 excluding vat per year for accountants services.Bearing in mind this company is very low volume.
Vat return and approx 10 invoices for purchases/expenditure and 1 or 2 sales invoices per mth some mths no sales . No pay role.

From your explanation that sounds excessive for the book-keeping and if he/his firm were doing all the book-keeping, they should be able to place enough reliance on the records to do the assignment for cheaper than €2,600.

Marcanthony wrote: »

I asked accountant what price to close company as these fees are to high to continue .Bearing in mind this company has no assets or liabilities. He quoted myself €1400 excl vat. He said he usually charges 3400 exc vat. Do you think hes taking the piss or are these standard prices.

Excessive, however that fee may include a set of accounts and tax return from last year end to date of cessation to trade. then again it might not.

Marcanthony wrote: »

Accountants reply ia email below. Any advice.Please help. I always pay my bills. but this is a princible issue.

Accountants response.....I have no intention of meeting you to discuss my fees. I am a busy person and cannot spend my valuable time listening to complaining about having to pay accountants fees

I can't think of any comment to justify this approach. I'm stunned that a professional would write something like that.

Marcanthony wrote: »

Hi upnorthchick,
Think that email was bad. Read this one. I need help or advice on what to do or who to complain to. With this accountant since day 1 all he is interested is in his fees and if you give him rope he takes lead.(He quotes myself 25 euro per hour for bookeeping and confirmed in an email)Then its 300 per mth.

Accountants email
I do not have to justify me fee to you. This fee was agreed with you at our last meeting and I would suggest you bring a pen with you in future and record such detail.

The bookkeeping carried out for the months2010 to 2011 inc’ is charged as at €300 plus VAT as agreed.

Preparation of financial accounts for the year ending 31/12/2010 fee reduced as per your request to €1,800 plus VAT.

Once again I'm stunned.




I would recommend that you look at the letter of engagement, did he give you one for book-keeping and one for the audit?

What does it state in the paragraph about fee's?

Did you ask for the timesheet extracts to justify the fee?

If you feel that you are not getting an professional answer, you should consider a complaint to his institute, the letter of engagement should be your starting point.


One thing I'm getting from the feel of your posts, is this a big accounting firm, perhaps your business is just too small (at the moment) to be serviced by such a firm, I could be mistaken on that assumption.

Marcanthony

HI ANSWERS BELOW TO QURIES

Excessive, however that fee may include a set of accounts and tax return from last year end to date of cessation to trade. then again it might not.

NO IT DOES NOT

I can't think of any comment to justify this approach. I'm stunned that a professional would write something like that.

THATS THE THE BEST OF IT. HE TOLD ME HES WRITING OF MY VAT BILL WITH HIS FEES.NO JOKE.HE PUT THAT IN AN EMAIL. AS IF HE IS DOING A FAVOUR FOR ME.


Once again I'm stunned.

SO AM I THATS WHY I AM SEEKING ADVICE AND OPINIONS.


I would recommend that you look at the letter of engagement, did he give you one for book-keeping and one for the audit?

NO GOT NOTING. BILLED AFTER WORK FINALISED.

What does it state in the paragraph about fee's?

HE QUOTED 25 EURO PER HOUR FOR BOOKEEPING.AFTER THAT I GOT NOTHING OF HIM.

Did you ask for the timesheet extracts to justify the fee?
I ASKED FOR A BREAKDOWN AND HE TOLD MYSELF AS STATED IN HIS EMAIL.HE DOES NOT HAVE TO JUSTIFY HIS FEES.

If you feel that you are not getting an professional answer, you should consider a complaint to his institute, the letter of engagement should be your starting point.
I CALLED THEM THEY TOLD MYSELF.ITS A COMPANY LAW ISSUE WITH FEES.THEY CAN NOT DO ANYTHING WITH FEES.


One thing I'm getting from the feel of your posts, is this a big accounting firm, perhaps your business is just too small (at the moment) to be serviced by such a firm, I could be mistaken on that assumption.[/QUOTE]
NO HE IS A ONE MAN BAND PRACTISING FROM AN OFFICE IN WEST DUBLIN.HE IS A CHARTERED ACCOUNTANT. HE LOVES TO POINT TO THE CERT ON HIS WALL AND TELL YOU ABOUT THE UNREGULATED ACCOUNTANTS IN THIS COUNTRY.(MAYBE HE DOES THATS TO JUSTIFYING HIS FEE)

smcgiff

Marcanthony wrote: »

I CALLED THEM THEY TOLD MYSELF.ITS A COMPANY LAW ISSUE WITH FEES.THEY CAN NOT DO ANYTHING WITH FEES.

If it's only fees then the CAI are correct. However, did you mention to them you did not receive a letter of engagement setting out the fees/work to carried out before hand.

This the CAI should have something to say on this.

dbran

Hi Op

You have your answers. Sort it out with the accountant in question or his institute. A public forum is not the place for this.

Regards

Dbran