Who has read the text of David Norris's letter?

Rorkimaru

At the moment I find that a lot of people are arguing over David Norris's withdrawal from the presidential election and the main point is this letter which the pro DN side say was written out of ignorance and compassion and the anti DN side say justifies pedophilia.

Never to be one to go on someone else's interpretation of a document I was wondering if this letter is available to read online? I wish to understand its contents and form my own opinion

Laminations

Did you even try to look for it?

It was the first result when I googled 'David Norris letter'

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf

/ Thread

thebman

Laminations wrote: »

Did you even try to look for it?

It was the first result when I googled 'David Norris letter'

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf

/ Thread

Yes I've skimmed it a few times not read the entire thing but it seems the vast majority of things being said are made up by both sides.

Like I said in another thread, this is like FOX News versus CNN on who is the biased one.

Conclusion both side are biased and for different reasons. One on religious grounds and the other defend it based on previous discrimination grounds against homosexuals in the past.

Rorkimaru

Laminations wrote: »

Did you even try to look for it?

It was the first result when I googled 'David Norris letter'

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf

/ Thread

I actually did. I was looking for it for about 20mins. For me it only turned up news reports about the letter... Well thank you very much for helping out!!

thebman wrote: »

Yes I've skimmed it a few times not read the entire thing but it seems the vast majority of things being said are made up by both sides.

Like I said in another thread, this is like FOX News versus CNN on who is the biased one.

Conclusion both side are biased and for different reasons. One on religious grounds and the other defend it based on previous discrimination grounds against homosexuals in the past.

I agree, the main reason I wanted to go to the source!

AnneBQ

I’ve just downloaded and read the letter and the submission to the Judge. Ezra, is a great plumber, reliable and hardworking, he dotes on his mother and he’s a good and loyal friend, Senator Norris also suggests that he may not have been served well by the Israeli legal system and that a custodial sentence would be very bad for him, nothing really contentious in any of that; it is however all about Ezra, his character and the Senator’s knowledge of him, not much referencing to the crime.
The parts I find hard to take are the Senators references to himself, I know you need to put yourself in context, show that you are a person of learning and standing to lend weight to your argument, but this was peacockery in my humble opinion. I would have voted for the Senator, but reading this I think there are enough peacocks flitting around the Aras, I’d rather a quieter less flamboyant bird but definitely not one of a political hue if that’s possible.
p.s. I think all of these interventions by politicians should be stopped…

Laminations

Rorkimaru wrote: »

I actually did. I was looking for it for about 20mins. For me it only turned up news reports about the letter... Well thank you very much for helping out!!

You're welcome

I agree, the main reason I wanted to go to the source!

I disagree. I think it is wholly disingenuopus to paint anyone who disagrees with Norris' letter to have done so on religious grounds.

He has tried in his senatorial capacity to downplay an offence and to seek a reduction in sentencing, suggesting a non-custodial sentence be more appropriate. For much of the letter he confuses Irish and Israeli law and he makes numerous appeals to his credentials (argumentum ad verecundiam) with an entire paragraph devoted to how great he is (Trinity lecturer, idolised senator, presidential candidate).

Early in the letter he criticises a judge for saying this case is similar to a heterosexual case

David Norris wrote:

I therefore personally witnessed some troubling anomalies in the majority verdict, such as the constant insistence by the presiding judge that there was absolutely no difference between this case and a similar case involving heterosexual relations. This is certainly factually incorrect.

Further down he attempts to use Irish legal precedent in cases involving heterosexual relations to justify his position that a lighter sentence should be given.

The letter is hypocritical and unashamedly in defence of Ezra and his upstanding character (he even borders on impugning the underage victim by implying he may have been the instigator - read as 'cause')

David Norris quoting a Nova Scotian court wrote:

"Where the victim not only consents but could be considereed the instigator or at least a willing participant, a sentence towards the lower end of the range will be appropriate"

He clearly aims to interfere with the legal process of another country using his position as senator to give his argument weight.

I don't care whether he is gay or not., it is out of order.

Rorkimaru

Having read the letter I don't want this man to be president. I am a strong supporter of LGBT acceptance but I will not vote for someone because they are gay, that is the same closed mindedness that has people voting against him due to his sexuality.

I also couldn't care less that this letter was written on government paper. That's immaterial, except to further display how he's trying to big himself up to the letters recipients.

What concerns me is that he tries to get a 40yo man off from having sex with a 15yo boy by saying:

1. The man is a lovely hard working guy
2. A heterosexual incident resulted in a different outcome (I think that offender should have been punished not held up as a loop hole)
3. The child consented to the sex (as if the 40 year old shouldn't have known better and as if convincing a child to have sex with you isn’t predation)
4. The guy promises he won’t do it again
5. He (the offender) promises to pay the child off

Regardless of how kind and learned a man David Norris is painted to be or in fact is, I do not want an ambassador for our country who would present such an argument. No matter how bigoted and homophobic the motives behind unearthing this letter, its existence still stands and if he is in the election he won't get my vote.

Zubeneschamali

Rorkimaru wrote: »

Having read the letter I don't want this man to be president.

Good thing he's not running for President, so.

Teclo

The Irish Daily Mail reported the existence of more damning pages that Norris only showed to his campaign staff(who ran as fast as they could after seeing all of it). The Sunday Independent, or no other media outlet, have shown any interest in trying to confirm or deny that claim.

anymore

Teclo wrote: »

The Irish Daily Mail reported the existence more damning pages that Norris only showed to his campaign staff(who ran as fast as they could after seeing all of it). The Sunday Independent, or no other media outlet, have shown any interest in trying to confirm or deny that claim.

In fact the majority fo the mainstream media have concentrated on the ludicrous claim that homphpobia is the reason Norris stepped down - only a few hardy sould like Vincent Browne has actually pointed out that there are serious questions to be asked and answered. Apparently we have learned nothing from the clerical sex scandals and from the various FF scandals ; the moral is that certain people are put up on pedestals and are immune from any serious examination of what they say.

Teclo

anymore wrote: »

Apparently we have learned nothing from the clerical sex scandals and from the various FF scandals ; the moral is that certain people are put up on pedestals and are immune from any serious examination of what they say.

As pathetic and broken as Bishop John Magee is, at least he didn't stand on his doorstep and proclaim 'fail again, fail better'.

conorhal

anymore wrote: »

In fact the majority fo the mainstream media have concentrated on the ludicrous claim that homphpobia is the reason Norris stepped down - only a few hardy sould like Vincent Browne has actually pointed out that there are serious questions to be asked and answered. Apparently we have learned nothing from the clerical sex scandals and from the various FF scandals ; the moral is that certain people are put up on pedestals and are immune from any serious examination of what they say.

How utterly true. The only thing that's changed is the nature of the beast that sits on the pedestal.

anymore

Teclo wrote: »

As pathetic and broken as Bishop John Magee is, at least he didn't stand on his doorstep and proclaim 'fail again, fail better'.

Nor does he have a mediteranean property to head off to which would have allowed him to avoid journalsits questions.

Zubeneschamali

anymore wrote: »

Nor does he have a mediteranean property to head off to which would have allowed him to avoid journalsits questions.

Dr Magee left Ireland before the report was published on July 13 and spent most of the past two months in the UK.

anymore

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Dr Magee left Ireland before the report was published on July 13 and spent most of the past two months in the UK.

Are you confirming that Magee does not a little pad in the mediterranean ?

Amtmann

From a purely technical point of view, I found the letter to be poorly structured, verbose, and generally badly written.

Zubeneschamali

anymore wrote: »

Are you confirming that Magee does not a little pad in the mediterranean ?

He belongs to an organization which has a whole feckin city in the Mediterranean.

anymore

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He belongs to an organization which has a whole feckin city in the Mediterranean.

I suspect that he would find the climate there not much to his liking. Senator Norris presumably, and the thread is about him, no doubts finds the climate on Cyprus much more agreeable. I asked the question on another thread as to whether Norris has much of a track record protesting about the continuing occupation of a part of Cyprus by Turkey. He has after all made much of the fact that he is ' a Humanitarian' etc. So one would exepct a decent number of staements and articles on the Turkisk outrage. I have googled 'David Norris Cyprus' and variants of it on a number of occassions and very little comes up; the link below usually comes up.

http://www.independent.ie/travel/travel-destinations/a-postcard-from-senator-david-norris-1431846.html

So given that he lives there for a portion of the year and owns property there, one would expect him to be Ireland's expert on Cyprus. So where are the statments and articles about Turkey's continuing occupation of part of Cyprus ?

reprazant

anymore wrote: »

Nor does he have a mediteranean property to head off to which would have allowed him to avoid journalsits questions.

He has a property in the med?

Lynch him I say! Lynch him now!

How dare he!

anymore

Tremelo wrote: »

From a purely technical point of view, I found the letter to be poorly structured, verbose, and generally badly written.

Interesting that you have concluded this given that the writer is or was a former trinity professor.
His wiki entry says of his edication :
Norris attended school at St. Andrew's College and The High School. He then entered Trinity College, the University of Dublin, to read for the degree of B.A. in English Literature and Language, where he was elected a Foundation Scholar in that subject before achieving a 1st Class Moderatorship and editing Icarus, the University literary magazine.I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0645ad]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I He remained at Trinity as a lecturer and college tutor between 1968 and 1996.I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0645ad]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I His love of Joyce is borne out in Dublin's annual Bloomsday celebrations.[10] He defended Ulysses when Roddy Doyle said it was "overlong, overrated and unmoving", calling Doyle a "foolish" and "moderate talent".[7] He is an Irish language speaker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Norris_(politician)

So at the least we should expect such a man to be a very competent and impressive writer. My own modest education makes me hesitant about criticising his writing, so I wonder if there other views or analysis of his actual writing style as opposed to the contents of the letter or its appropriateness - these have been dealt with extensively in other threads.

Zubeneschamali

anymore wrote: »

I wonder if there other views or analysis of his actual writing style as opposed to the contents of the letter or its appropriateness

Then we can talk about his beard, his hairstyle, his suits...

For feck's sake, he's not running! Who care about this stuff?

anymore

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Then we can talk about his beard, his hairstyle, his suits...

For feck's sake, he's not running! Who care about this stuff?

I would have assumed that if someone posts a thread on it that they are interested and given the rather belated discovery that Ireland's education system is not all it was cracked up to be, then it seems relevant on a number of fronts. I also am interested. Apparently you are interested enough to also read and post on the thread.

Zubeneschamali

anymore wrote: »

I also am interested.

Yes, I can see that you are very interested in Senator Norris.

caseyann

Rorkimaru wrote: »

Having read the letter I don't want this man to be president. I am a strong supporter of LGBT acceptance but I will not vote for someone because they are gay, that is the same closed mindedness that has people voting against him due to his sexuality.

I also couldn't care less that this letter was written on government paper. That's immaterial, except to further display how he's trying to big himself up to the letters recipients.

What concerns me is that he tries to get a 40yo man off from having sex with a 15yo boy by saying:

1. The man is a lovely hard working guy
2. A heterosexual incident resulted in a different outcome (I think that offender should have been punished not held up as a loop hole)
3. The child consented to the sex (as if the 40 year old shouldn't have known better and as if convincing a child to have sex with you isn’t predation)
4. The guy promises he won’t do it again
5. He (the offender) promises to pay the child off

Regardless of how kind and learned a man David Norris is painted to be or in fact is, I do not want an ambassador for our country who would present such an argument. No matter how bigoted and homophobic the motives behind unearthing this letter, its existence still stands and if he is in the election he won't get my vote.

To be honest i am glad he has not a shred of power now.Not after just reading that part but also from what i believe he said in a meeting years ago.
Stating he wished he had been molested and fantasized about it all his life.
I mean is that true?

N8

The Mail on Sunday uncovered the minutes of the first meeting of the Union for Sexual Freedom in the National Library of Ireland on May 10, 1975. The minutes stated “David said as a child it had been his greatest desire to be molested so he, more than most people, knows the rarity of the homosexual child molester.”

The newspaper also mentions Norris’ support for a pro-pedophile organization in the 1980s called the Paedophile Information Exchange. Norris was a founding member of the International Gay Association in the 1980s and passed two motions.

“One called for the abolition of the age of consent, whilst the second called for an international solidarity campaign on behalf of the Paedophile Information Exchange.

“At the time of the letter, members of exchange were being prosecuted for ‘conspiracy to corrupt public morals’ over ads that appeared in a magazine that were alleged to have promoted indecent acts between adults and children.”

The report continues “One letter [from the International Gay Association] seeking support for the exchange, dated May 13, 1981, said: ‘PIE is an organization set up in the ‘70s with two aims: to provide a counseling and support service for isolated paedophiles, and to campaign against the legal and social oppression of paedophilia”.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Further-revelations-over-David-Norris-views-on-underage-sex-127263293.html?showAll=y

I am actually of the mind now he was set up and that people (enemies masquerading as friends and advisers) convinced this egotistical dirty old man that because a few of his buddies could get him into the senate and he could talk rubbish in a better than you west brit accent, that he was the stuff of presidency.

I think these same folk knew his past and planned on it coming out which it would (i.e. he continued a relationship with a child rapist post conviction, that he has categorically stated he would love to have been abused as a child, that he believed folk should allow their children be groomed for underage sex, and he publicly supported paedophilia and organisations of such, and when it came out it would expose him and destroy him.

Now really did he ever really believe he was going to be the president... I think in hindsight he will regret allowing his ego get the better of him.

MadsL

caseyann wrote: »

To be honest i am glad he has not a shred of power now.Not after just reading that part but also from what i believe he said in a meeting years ago.
Stating he wished he had been molested and fantasized about it all his life.
I mean is that true?

He made a joke, which was minuted at a meeting. Not a funny joke and with modern ears it now sounds horrifying. It probably didn't in the 70's.

A few people on here want to burn the child-molesting monster. Problem is despite all of David Norris's rather eyebrow raising comments he isn't the child-molesting monster that some on here want to paint him as - but they'll lynch him anyway.

anymore

MadsL wrote: »

He made a joke, which was minuted at a meeting. Not a funny joke and with modern ears it now sounds horrifying. It probably didn't in the 70's.

A few people on here want to burn the child-molesting monster. Problem is despite all of David Norris's rather eyebrow raising comments he isn't the child-molesting monster that some on here want to paint him as - but they'll lynch him anyway.

I can assure you it would have been considered a greal more shocking in the 70's in Ireland - there were fewer ' politically correct' journalists and commentators then. In fact in a country were contraception wasnt not freely available, it is pretty ludicrous to make that claim.
As for the ' lynch' comment, I predicted long ago that Norris's failure to get elected would result in a ' Martyr Syndrome' and so it has come to pass.

MadsL

I predicted long ago that Norris's failure to get elected would result in a ' Martyr Syndrome' and so it has come to pass.

Look at me. I was was right. Whoo.

...now what else can we find wrong with Norris??

Give it a rest. Or go start a Norris wears odd socks thread. :rolleyes:

thebman

Laminations wrote: »

I disagree. I think it is wholly disingenuopus to paint anyone who disagrees with Norris' letter to have done so on religious grounds.

I didn't really mean since it started, I mean anyone still beating the drum about the issue.

paddyandy

Maybe if Norris disappeared up his own he might prove something.