Bringing up two puppies

in the pub

Hi,

We are a little concerned and would appreciate any advice at all....

We have just bought 2 puppies, they are twins and around 14 weeks old.

We did all the usual research in to the breeder, checked the environment they were brought up in, IKC papers, checked the mum etc etc. All seemed fine

So after buying them we are reading a lot of articles on the web of problems with raising two puppies together. And how the breeder is irresponsible for selling us two puppies. It has kind of scared us a little.

Is it really that bad? We are pretty much amateurs at dog raising, I mean we have both had them before but thats it.

We really love them both so much and don't want to give one away. So what should we do?

Is it just a matter of doing things separately with them? We are going to take them to dog socialising classes on different days. We will try to play with them separately and feed them separately etc etc. Is there any thing else to do or look out for?

Thanks any input greatly appreciated!

desaparecidos

in the pub wrote: »

So after buying them we are reading a lot of articles on the web of problems with raising two puppies together. And how the breeder is irresponsible for selling us two puppies. It has kind of scared us a little.

Sounds like a load of ****e to me.

aisher

I got a book on puppies and there is a mention of rearing two puppies at the same time. There is nothing WRONG with having two puppies but it will mean a lot of work. Its like bringing up two babies instead of one - once you get a system in place it will work out fine. I dont see why you should have to feed seperately and I would walk them at the same time - dogs like being in a pack. Good luck!

LucyBliss

The general consensus seems to be that getting two dogs at the one time is a no-no because the dogs will bond with one another, won't listen to you and will be untrainable.

I got two pups three years ago when our rescue dog turned out to be pregnant, had six pups and we kept two. It is double the amount of work that taking care of one pup is. While you're keeping an eye on one, the other is up to mischief or when you're trying to stop one running past you, the other scoots past and makes a bolt for freedom, even if freedom just means knocking over the bin.
But it is totally doable. You do the same as you do with one dog, only sometimes you're doing a double training session - for example, when you're handing out treats, you might teach them to sit down at the one time. Walks can be done separately until they're good on the lead. It's no harm for one to be walked on their own, it's nice to have a one-to-one. Other times you walk everyone together.
When it comes to toilet training, take them both out after meals, naps, playtime, the usual drill.

So long as you're committed to training the dogs to be good companions, not only to each other but to you, there's really no hassle with two dogs. The problems occur when people assume they'll keep each company with no input form the human element and then they wonder why their dogs are so focused on one another.

Oh, and buy a crate. If you think one dog can cause damage, try two the same age! We got a crate and it was the best investment ever! They slept in it until they were nearly two years old and believe me, there is no separation anxiety there. Yes, they like to lie together occasionally and that's fine. I want two dogs who can sit together and don't freak over territory. But if one decides to nap in the living room and the other comes into another room with me, they're more than happy to have their own space.

Keep your wits about you, be prepared to deal with any training issues that crop up and have plenty of treats so that when they go bonkers gallivanting about, you can re-direct their attention back to you!

And most importantly, enjoy your pups! They're so gorgeous at that age and seeing them playing around is so much fun.

ETA: I don't feed mine separately, I never have. I just trained them to understand that they had to sit down for their bowls of food, or any food for that matter, and that they had to stick to their own bowl and that I was allowed to take food from their bowl when I wanted. I usually supervise every feeding but that's only because I have one who likes to walk as she chews and the other lad is very opportunistic and would help himself while she was strolling around the kitchen. Make sure you know what rules you want for your two dogs and then keep at it until they get it.

andreac

To be honest, most good breeders i know wouldnt sell 2 pups from the one litter to one person, especially if they arent experienced dog owners.

It takes a lot of work for one puppy, let alone 2, so its not a load of s***e actually.

How come you bought 2 pups? You really are going to have to put in a serious amount of work, more than the norm, when you have littermates as they can delevop littermate syndrome and really too much on each other and they can be hard to train. I suggest you look into a really good dog trainer in your area and get them to classes as soon as possible and it might be best to bring them separately too so they arent depending on each other all of the time.

in the pub

Guys thanks so much for the taking the time to reply, starting to feel better!

Seems like it's just going to be hard work, but hey if it means we can keep them both then that's what we'll do.....

LucyBliss: questions for you. By crate do you mean a cage type of thing-I just googled dog crate and it came up with what looks like a cage. So do we put them both in there at night? Or do we get two and keep them seperate? And what do we put at the bottom? Newspaper or a soft bed? What is the point of it? Is it to hold their poo and pee in at night?

Also, one of them is a bit bossy with the other one. (it's so funny to watch!) But sometimes he'll bite the other one until he yelps or jump on the other one. He'll even sleep on top of the other one. What should we do? Do we stop him being the bully or just let him do his thing? As they are so tiny it isn't violent or anything but I'm not sure if it well develop in to a problem later?

Andreac: we bought two as we basically just fell in love with them both! Also we made the silly mistake of thinking that it would be good for them not be sperated and that they will have a companion for when we are out....obviously learning very quickly that this is not the case! But we have great training place near us which we will start using very soon.

carwash_2006

Honestly, from personal experience it can be very, very hard. Plus, even with putting in the work and doing everything you can you can end up with problems. I have a fantastic bond with one of mine, but the other ones bond is a little sketchy. When they are together they are much more hyper and wind each other up.

I have actually got one of them up for homing at this stage, which breaks my heart, but I really feel they would be better off apart

Sigma Force

One pup is easier but you'll just have to put a bit of extra work in.

To be honest you won't be the first person to have two dogs the same age brought up together and it doesn't mean there will be problems. Some of it imo is just scare mongering. It can depend on the pups personalities, training etc. but you can get one pup that's a handful or you can get to angels it really comes down to the dogs and owner.

You'll have double the work and double the vet bills, there's always puppy classes to help you along which you would need whether you have one or two pups anyway.

I think people can take a few examples of where it didn't work out and make out that that happens every time someone gets a pair of dogs from the same litter. It's not black and white.

I wouldn't worry at all, I've known pairs of labs that grew up together just perfectly.

They gain their own personalities and you will get to know your dogs and sounds like you are going to put in the work and effort.

LucyBliss

in the pub wrote: »

LucyBliss: questions for you. By crate do you mean a cage type of thing-I just googled dog crate and it came up with what looks like a cage. So do we put them both in there at night? Or do we get two and keep them seperate? And what do we put at the bottom? Newspaper or a soft bed? What is the point of it? Is it to hold their poo and pee in at night?

Also, one of them is a bit bossy with the other one. (it's so funny to watch!) But sometimes he'll bite the other one until he yelps or jump on the other one. He'll even sleep on top of the other one. What should we do? Do we stop him being the bully or just let him do his thing? As they are so tiny it isn't violent or anything but I'm not sure if it well develop in to a problem later?

Yes, the crate is like a cage. Basically it's a safe place for the dog to be when you're out. It saves you coming home to the house being destroyed when they decide that the cushions were looking at them funny & therefore deserved to be eaten! I would give the bedtime command and click my fingers towards the crate and despite some initial reluctance to hit the hay, one would eventually go in. Whoever that was got praised and petted very loudly and the other would come a-running eager to get some of the attention. Eventually you won't have to close the crate at night and the older they get, the less need you might find you have for it.
It does also help with toilet training as they're less likely to soil their own bed so you're not coming home to puddles. But as soon as you do come home, you let them out to the garden or wherever to do their business because they're usually bursting by then when they're only young.
Because I am the type of owner who is easily seduced by comfortable beds, be they for dogs or people, I have about six or seven dog mat/beds that I got in Dunnes quite cheaply. I put one or two in the crate so they have something comfortable to lie on.

As regards buying two crates, that's up to you. When I decided to keep my pups, I was very worried about littermate syndrome and I bought two crates. They did not care for sleeping in separate beds however. They liked to be together at night. That worried me. Was I setting us all up for trouble, I wondered? Was I going to end up with dogs that pined for each other? Then they got a bit older and it wasn't necessary to close the crate at night because I knew that they weren't going to cause any problems. And one would sleep in the crate and one would kip on the armchair. That was promising, I thought and was relieved. And then they started to sleep upstairs with us and it turned out that they didn't care where the other one was so long as they had a comfy duvet to stretch out on. They will lie beside one another for company and warmth sometimes but it depends on the kind of blanket that's available to them.

If you have a bossy one (and we did too), you have to let the dog know that there are boundaries he can't cross. Our one used to try to take the toy off the other and would bark at her if he didn't get it. It didn't matter how many other toys you showed him, he wanted THAT one. So he had to be told to be quiet and to wait. Now he sits and waits for her to finish with it.
It's not really fair to the quiet one to be bossed around, I feel, so I would intervene. Tell him a firm no and distract him with something else. I'm not so worried about sleeping on top of one another, mine do that and there's no bully behaviour behind it, they're just cuddling up together. Unless one is looking extremely put upon and uncomfortable, then yes, move the top one off.

I find there can be a lot of naysaying about getting two pups and I got a lot of it from my own family to the point where I was convinced my dogs would end up delinquents and we'd be thrown out of the neighbourhood! But with common sense, staying alert to what they're doing and, frankly, some hard work it can be done. I mean, mine are three now. They're not perfect but they get on so well and any time one might try to start trouble (very rarely) I see the signals and I can break it up simply by whistling at them to get their attention and it's all over.
It is good to socialise them and puppy classes are a great idea. And it is nice for the dog to have a companion. They're social animals and we can't be home all the time.

What breed are they, OP?

piperh

I'm raising 2 pups at the moment(now 8mnths old) and yes some of the training is harder with 2 but some of the things are easier. I had both toilet trained very quickly because they saw the other one getting attention for going outside and wanted the same. Recall again was easier i just let one off at a time and knew that even if they didn't come for me they were going to come back to each other and a treat when they came back soon made them realise coming back was a good thing. Things like bed stay leave they also picked up easily enough with patience and training.

The things that are harder is things like calling one to you and both bound over but with time it can be sorted and knowing which one has chewed the skirting or dug up the flower bed but unless you catch them in the act theres nothing you can do anyway. We have only recently bought crates and they are quite happy to go in separatly or together.

I make a point of sometimes walking or doing things with them seperatly sometimes as i don't want a dog that pines if the other is not around. Yes raising 2 pups is harder and more time consuming but it can be done and it is great fun.

magentas

It is a lot of work OP but it is very possible and extremely rewarding. I had 2dogs, one 6months and the other 8months when my youngest pup was born (long story...pregnant rescue dog!)

Once you're prepared to put the time and work into the pups. The hardest thing will be the training, this has to be done seperately and I see that "you" are a "we"! when there's two of you it'll make things much easier. Just make sure you do equal amounts of work with each pup ie. if you do ALL the work with one pup, the other pup may not heed you and vice versa so take it in turns when training.

There is no reason to feed them seperately. In fact, it'll be a joy to watch them learn from each other in ways. The first few months will be the hardest. My baby is just gone 6months now and I feel like the hardest work is behind us now but it's an ongoing struggle! She's not 100% yet but she is very good and I'm still working on it:D

Another thing I'd suggest is to get them used to being on their own at times so that it's not a big issue and there's no anxiety if they need to be apart for any lenght of time.

Just remember, it will be hard work but it will also be an amazing experience. Don't forget the fun side of it! It's so rewarding. Getting home and having those two little cuties running to greet you and so excited to see you...there's no feeling like it!

Ailishcrehan

I think the issue is not having two puppies together, it is more likely a case that you have siblings...often siblings can fight as they get older so some people don't recommend you take two from the same litter.

Having two pups, though definitely harder work, is worth while - they are a great source of company for one another, they can continue to learn what is acceptable in terms of play/rough housing.

Try get into a routine with them - toilet straight after they wake up, feeding at regular times...the minute they wake up, bring them out to toilet or whatever method of toilet training you have, be it paper/puppy training mats and give them lots of praise when they go in the place you want them to go.

Crate training is brilliant, if you crate train the pups, at least when you go out to do a bit of shopping for an hour, you can keep the pups safe in their crate...as other people have mentioned, one pup can do a lot of damage, two and it could be carnage

LucyBliss

Ailishcrehan wrote: »

I think the issue is not having two puppies together, it is more likely a case that you have siblings...often siblings can fight as they get older so some people don't recommend you take two from the same litter.

True, the whole being the same age thing means that you get one trying to best the other. The important thing to remember is to nip any of that in the bud right from the get-go and not let the happy fun playtime jostling they do turn nasty. You can usually tell from the noise level as it gets louder and fiercer. A sharp hand clap always did the trick for mine or me knocking on the timber floor distracted them enough when they would be eyeing one another up with tense body language.
It's very easy to get overwhelmed when you're trying to raise two well-adjusted dogs. Just remember that you're the boss and that distraction and games work great alongside training sessions. If you're consistent and firm from the start, you don't have to worry about aggression. They will chance their arm to see how far they can go with you and each other but it'll be more growing pains/normal development as opposed to complete unruly behaviour, if that makes sense.

deadlast

What breed are they?

in the pub

Guys thank you all so much for the advice, you are all touching on the things that i am stressing about....and i am really learning so please keep it coming.

They are two male Yorkies-twins. Its very hard to tell the difference between them both. We have had to get two different colour collars to tell them apart!

Their 'playing/fighting'- I am having a hard time knowing if it really is just playing around as they do growl at each other a lot. As they are so tiny it seems harmless but i am worried that it will turn in to something more serious. I feel bad stopping them all the time because it seems like they are just having fun, but I obviously don't want them to hurt each other. I think i'll just keep stopping them just in case. I'll use the loud clap or stamp my feet as suggested.

I was advised to get crates. So I have bought two. They love to sleep on top of each other but I have decided to separate them to get them used to being without each other. But the crates are right next to each other so they can still smell/see each other. I have lined half the crate with a soft bedding type of blanket and the other half is just newspaper. I feel so sorry for them though as it must be awful to sleep next to your pee and poo! And when I come down to see them in the morning they end up stepping in it with excitement. So I end up washing the blankets everyday for them and cleaning them!

Is it ok for them to be barking and howling when i put them in the crate at night? I guess just ignore it and hopefully it will stop?

They seem to like to pee on the newspapers though which is great. But the poo is anywhere in the house at the moment. Again its hard knowing which one did it!

I am finding it hard to even get them used to their names. obviously if I call one they both hear it and respond. So what I am doing is picking one up and playing with him and keep calling him by his name. Then put him down and do the same with the other. Myself and my partner have decided to spend half an hour in a separate room with each of them. I will take one and she'll take the other and we'll play and mess around with them calling their names all the time.

Well we will keep persisting with them. We are seriously considering giving one of them up. There is no shortage of love but we just want what is best for them. I know as time goes on it will be harder to give one away so it really is down to this week before we decide. I have a feeling knowing myself and especially my partner we will keep them both-we're already smitten!!

Thanks again for all your advice.....

Zapperzy

The idea of crate training with a crate is that they learn not to pee or poo in their crate. It goes completely against their nature to soil their sleeping area that's why using a crate as part of housetraining works so well. I would block half the crate off and start getting up during the night to let them out to do it in the garden. Letting them go in their crate at night and then expecting them to go outside during the day is just making housetraining harder, start as you mean to go on and that is to go outside, both day and night.

Do you use the crate during the day? You could try feeding them in their crates during the day, and locking them in with a tasty treat for half an hour during the day, it will get them to associate their crate as good, might help with the barking at night when you first put them in. If they are barking during the night perhaps they need to go to the toilet and are letting you know.

LucyBliss

It's no harm to stop them occassionally from their play acting if you're going to direct them into another game or a little training session with treats. Because then you're getting them used to focusing on you which is always a good thing.

When it came to the crate, mine were like kids who are sleeping on the couch, then get told it's time for bed and suddenly are bright as buttons and being crazed. I'd give them the bedtime command and try and 'hunt' them in. I'd keep clicking my fingers towards the crate and say 'bedtime' while I would block them with my body from getting past me and moving them backwards towards the crate. Eventually one would go in and the one who did got lavished with praise and pets and rubdowns. Then the other one would be over because of all the attention on the other one and then they'd both get praise and pets. Then I'd very calmly and quietly like I was talking to a baby stuff like 'bedtime, good night, good dogs, bedtime' for a few minutes until they were nice and calm like and then I'd close the crate, turn off the lights and go to bed. Any time they went into the crate, day or night, I did that routine so they'd be settled down and associate it with happy sleeps.

Of course now they're three years old and unless they're super tired, they sit on the end of my bed staring at me and I have to rub them down and say it to them before they get comfortable and curl up to sleep. So it does stay with them.

ohmfg

OP, we have two littermates - GSD - we rescued when they were 8/9 weeks old. They are now nearly 8 years old and have never had an argument. They are the best of friends and are totally bonded to us also. It is possible to raise littermates successfully, maybe takes a bit more time and patience but it is doable. We wouldn't be without our guys and having them both has been a joy.

I did like you, at the beginning I researched after the fact and nearly gave myself a heart attack!! I had visions of having to pick up pieces of dog from the floor after an all out blood bath. I freaked myself out for a while but common sense, one day at a time and a strict training regime later, proved that littermates are/can be fine together.

Do research and educate yourself by all means but also, please keep in mind that often on forums etc., you will find only extremes and dramatics. The ordinary and the mundane don't make for scintillating reading but can be the way that lots of us live with our pets.

Good luck.

in the pub

Ok just an update on the two little brats.

Well first and foremost they are getting on great and we absolutely love them. They are the best thing we ever did and as one person said you can read so many things on google and literally frighten the life out of yourself. Yes they are hard work- we can't take our eyes off them for a minute but we wouldn't change it for the world. We were considering giving one away after day one but that is not going to happen-absolutely no way!!

With regards to crates, we bought two, they are in there at night and the first few days were awful-they had rolled around in their poo and were literally covered. They had a bath every morning. But after day three they obviously realised that was no fun and have stopped pooing in them. They wait and although they still do it around the house during the day, most of the time it is on the newspaper in the kitchen.

So if I see them do it in the house should I be telling them off and then taking them to the newspaper? I was told it's the other way around-praise when they've been good but ignore when bad. Problem is they are so fussy, i'm running out of treats that they get excited about!! they are even turning their nose up to freshly cooked ham or roast beef!

One thing we are concerned about is their fighting. It's hard to tell if it is playing or serious. Usually one starts it and pins the other down-obviously trying to be the leader or 'alpha' dog. But it seems serious because of the noise they make-it gets quite loud. There tails are not wagging too-well its hard to tell in the commotion. There is a yelp every now and then but rarely. I do try and stop them but they don't stop-as if they are too angry at each other. And it is an all day thing, they are constantly at it! Should I be worried and doing something about it?

Thanks for all the help and advice, I can't believe after one week how we couldn't imagine life without them!

andreac

Firstly i would get rid of the newspaper as its unfair to expect them to go outside but you want them on the paper too, its too confusing for a pup, its need to be one or the other.

If you choose the newspaper then you have to retrain them all over again to go outside and you are just prolonging the training by using paper.


With the crates, the whole point of crates is that they dont go inside their crates as its their bed. But, to make sure this doesnt happen, you have to make sure they arent being left in the crates too long at this age, as they cant hold their toilet for much longer than a couple of hours so you cant leave them in over night without letting them out during the night to relieve themselves.

DBB

+1 on everything Andrea said!
Getting pups to go on paper in the house can significantly increase the time it takes to housetrain, there is simply no quicker and effective way to housetrain than to bite the bullet and keep bringing them outside. Dogs trained on newspaper can, and often do learn that it's ok to go in the house.
If you catch them in the act, it's ok to say a mild "no" and bring them outside, but unless you literally catch them in mid-flow, it's counter-productive to chastise them in any way.
As for the rough playing, this is all a normal stage of the development of communication between dogs, it's not really a bid to assert who's the boss in the human sense. Pups learn a lot by play-fighting with each other, but as any parent would do, if it gets too intense and you feel that one of the pups is getting frightened or overawed by the other, stop the play and if necessary, put them in their crates for a couple of minutes to wind down a bit. You know how they say when kids are playing "it'll all end in tears"? Well it shouldn't: an adult should step in and calmly split the kids, or pups, up to give them a chance to calm down a bit before allowing play to resume.
There is little doubt that littermates, especially same-sex littermates, tend to be more troublesome when it comes to squabbles, so they really need judicious 'parental' intervention from time to time! But be careful not to be overly cautious, they do need a certain degree of rough and tumble.
You'll need to get them mixing with other pup-safe dogs asap so that they learn that different dogs have different styles of play, communication, and tolerance. A good, and I mean good, puppy socialisation class would be a great help to this end.
Great to read that you're enjoying them so much!

piperh

We've found that actually having one particular patch outside (we use a gravel pen as easier to clean in bad weather) that we put the dogs into for the toilet speeds up the training process a bit as altho its cleaned daily the smell is still there to their sensitive noses. A bit like them always going in the same place in the house.

With the play fighting we use the word enough and this stops play immediatly, enough is only used for this so they learn pretty quick to stop when they hear the word as its unlike anything else we use.

Have fun and enjoy them at this great age.