Appeal clamping to IPAS

tobsey

Sorry for starting another clamping thread but I'm wondering if anyone has escalated an appeal to the Irish Parking Appeals Service?

I was going to a friends apartment on a Saturday night a few weeks ago. I decided to drive up and park the car, get a taxi home and pick it up the next morning. When I arrived my friend pointed me to the visitor parking bays and showed me a sign which says to text a code and your reg to a particular number and you can park for 24hrs. It only cost something like 60c so I said that's grand. I sent the text but I got the year of the car reg wrong. I don't know why but I put 00d instead of 11d.

As you might have guessed I arrived up the next day to find it clamped and had to pay 125eur to have it removed. I lodged an appeal to NCPS but they wrote to me yesterday saying my appeal has been rejected. They basically say it's the drivers responsibility to ensure the details are correct, which I accept, but 125 quid for effectively a typo is ridiculous. The only option left is to pay 20 euro for an "independent" appeal to IPAS which as far as I'm aware is an unregulated private company so if my appeal fails with then it's another 20 quid gone.

As far as I'm aware the IPAS are known for awarding partial refunds in certain cases but I've no idea what these circumstances would be and whether I'd have any luck or not. Anyone have any experience or advice?

Paulw

But, in fairness, you sent in the wrong info.

Why is it their fault that you made a mistake?

I'm sure if you went to tax your car, or insure your car with the wrong license, it would also be your fault and not up to them to make know you made the mistake. They can only go on what they are given.

Now, if it had have been eg - 00D1188 black ford focus, instead of a 11d1188 black ford focus, you could possibly expect them to work out that you made a typo, but with just the license plate, they can't be sure it was simply a typo.

I doubt they'll uphold any appeal.

tobsey

Paulw wrote: »

But, in fairness, you sent in the wrong info.

Why is it their fault that you made a mistake?

I'm sure if you went to tax your car, or insure your car with the wrong license, it would also be your fault and not up to them to make know you made the mistake. They can only go on what they are given.

Now, if it had have been eg - 00D1188 black ford focus, instead of a 11d1188 black ford focus, you could possibly expect them to work out that you made a typo, but with just the license plate, they can't be sure it was simply a typo.

I doubt they'll uphold any appeal.

I understand that and I accept I made a mistake. But there are only 9 visitor parking bays in the complex (I think, certainly not much more) and I know for a fact that most of those are in use by residents who have a parking badge but don't have a designated parking place. Even if there were 5 cars registered using the text service the clamping operator must have had a list with him and could have seen that their was a very similar registration there. I'm tempted to make the appeal and if I got half the money back I'd take. I know there is a cost involved with in sending out the clampers in the first place and then sending them back to remove it, but €120 is not a fair charge given the circumstances.

Bigcheeze

Paulw wrote: »

But, in fairness, you sent in the wrong info.

Why is it their fault that you made a mistake?

I'm sure if you went to tax your car, or insure your car with the wrong license, it would also be your fault and not up to them to make know you made the mistake. They can only go on what they are given.

Now, if it had have been eg - 00D1188 black ford focus, instead of a 11d1188 black ford focus, you could possibly expect them to work out that you made a typo, but with just the license plate, they can't be sure it was simply a typo.

I doubt they'll uphold any appeal.

He's not saying it's their fault, he's asking for some common sense to be used as it's clearly a genuine error. Of course common sense won't be used because he's dealing with low life scum.

Anan1

IMO it's really down to the discretion of the clampers to show goodwill, rather than your having strong grounds for appeal. That being said, I think your argument for a partial refund is a reasonable one. I'd appeal it again.

kirving

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Einhell-BTAG500-Mini-Grinder-500W/dp/B001EX2V1S/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1313676462&sr=8-11

Spend 20 quid on that, if you ever get clamped over something stupid again, you can tell them they can lodge an appeal.

Thatnastyboy

The whole practise is a disgrace,

OP, the company should offer you some grace, as you said half of the fee would be very fair given the circumstances.

The sooner this extortionate racket is done away with the better, as in Scotland where a Judge set a precedent banning the use of clamps.

Or else, everybody should cut (private) clamps off to the point where its no longer financialy viable for these embesselers(spell?) to operate.

VolvoMan

Next time somebody gets clamped by these guys, just don't pay. Buy or rent an angle grinder and laugh in their faces, as there is diddly squat they can do.

zulfikarMD

VolvoMan wrote: »

Next time somebody gets clamped by these guys, just don't pay. Buy or rent an angle grinder and laugh in their faces, as there is diddly squat they can do.

+1. Agree completely. Better spend money on grinder then paying to clampers.

Anan1

Isn't this the part where someone posts a pic of an angle grinder and everyone else thanks them and then everything's ok again?;)

Thatnastyboy

Kevin Irving wrote: »

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Einhell-BTAG500-Mini-Grinder-500W/dp/B001EX2V1S/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1313676462&sr=8-11

Spend 20 quid on that, if you ever get clamped over something stupid again, you can tell them they can lodge an appeal.

Anan1 wrote: »

Isn't this the part where someone posts a pic of an angle grinder and everyone else thanks them and then everything's ok again?;)

^^^ You're about 2 hours too late.

I do endorse the cutting of clamps though, Ive never had to on my own motor though.

Scealta_saol

IPAS are Independent so they can usually see the human error behind a situation and have sometimes let people off for such stuff..

on the grinders - cameras are in the car parks usually and you can get done for criminal damage. these cases usually go against the person who's been clamped.

Bigcheeze

Scealta_saol wrote: »

IPAS are Independent so they can usually see the human error behind a situation and have sometimes let people off for such stuff..

They're not independent.

Scealta_saol wrote: »

on the grinders - cameras are in the car parks usually and you can get done for criminal damage. these cases usually go against the person who's been clamped.

Link to any cases where the clamp victim has been done ?

johnos1984

Scealta_saol wrote: »

on the grinders - cameras are in the car parks usually and you can get done for criminal damage. these cases usually go against the person who's been clamped.

Can you link to ANY case that has even been taken?

Paarse Krokodil

Scealta_saol

@BigCheese - They're independent from the clamping company. They're not hired by the clamping company. they're hired by the appellant.

@everyone else - no i don't have a link to anyone who's been done for cutting a clamp. i go on the assumption (from sitting in court) that criminal damage is criminal damage and that the clampers have a job to do and if someone inteferes with that job the courts can get miffed... ok it's an assumption, but I think it's the right assumption...

kirving

Fair enough, but isn't there an equally valid law that states that it is an offence to immobilise someones vehicle without permission.

To be honest, I don't know what it is, but it has been quoted on here before.

johnos1984

Scealta_saol wrote: »

it's an assumption

It's wrong.

No clamper has taken a case against anyone for criminal damage of a clamp as they themselves are operating in a legal grey area

squod

Scealta_saol wrote: »

@BigCheese - They're independent from the clamping company. They're not hired by the clamping company. they're hired by the appellant.

@everyone else - no i don't have a link to anyone who's been done for cutting a clamp. i go on the assumption (from sitting in court) that criminal damage is criminal damage and that the clampers have a job to do and if someone inteferes with that job the courts can get miffed... ok it's an assumption, but I think it's the right assumption...

Clamping in a public place is illegal. If the OP managed to get a car into that place it is probably public. As soon as people stop paying these scumbags the sooner they'll clear off.

2. Road Traffic Act, 1933 167.—(1) Every person who, without the consent of the owner or the person in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle and without other lawful authority or reasonable cause interferes or attempts to interfere in any way with the mechanism of such vehicle while it is stationary in a public place or gets on or into or attempts to get on or into such vehicle while it is so stationary shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.

3. Under Section 9 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 anyone without legal authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place shall be guilty of an offence

Scealta_saol

clampers only operate in private car parks (in Dublin anyway - I hear Cork City Council is different) but that being said, you enter into the car park and you enter into an agreement by parking there. that's why they have the signs there. if you don't want to run the risk of getting clamped you should only park on private roads or private car parks. at least that way you'll only get fined.

squod

Scealta_saol wrote: »

clampers only operate in private car parks (in Dublin anyway - I hear Cork City Council is different) but that being said, you enter into the car park and you enter into an agreement by parking there. that's why they have the signs there. if you don't want to run the risk of getting clamped you should only park on private roads or private car parks. at least that way you'll only get fined.

If there's memebers of the public there, it's probably a public place. If it's private then they shouldn't allow people in. As for the ''signs'' point. Signs don't make a contract.

Clamping is illegal.

Stainless_Steel

Scealta_saol wrote: »

clampers only operate in private car parks (in Dublin anyway - I hear Cork City Council is different) but that being said, you enter into the car park and you enter into an agreement by parking there. that's why they have the signs there. if you don't want to run the risk of getting clamped you should only park on private roads or private car parks. at least that way you'll only get fined.

Your point is flawed. A private agreement can't result in a breach of the law. The law states they can't interfere with your car.

You can't agree with someone to murder them and then get away with it because they put a murder me sign on them. Exaggerated point of course.

squod

It's all been covered a million and one times. Here and in the legal forums. Paying scumbags will just give them an incentive.

Scealta_saol

squod wrote: »

If there's memebers of the public there, it's probably a public place. If it's private then they shouldn't allow people in. As for the ''signs'' point. Signs don't make a contract.

most car parks are privately owned. some are owned by Local Authorities. Anywhere that has a clamping sign is owned by private businesses (the shops in a shopping area will own that car park and pay for enforcement). i'd like to see the shops no this is my car park and you can't come in. they'd lose revenue fast.

a public car park is owned by the local authority enforcing that area and they normally have their own enforcement or a private company.

squod

Scealta_saol wrote: »

most car parks are privately owned. some are owned by Local Authorities. Anywhere that has a clamping sign is owned by private businesses (the shops in a shopping area will own that car park and pay for enforcement). i'd like to see the shops no this is my car park and you can't come in. they'd lose revenue fast.

a public car park is owned by the local authority enforcing that area and they normally have their own enforcement or a private company.

You seem to have missed the last dozen threads on the matter. Turns out that you're wrong. Clamping is illegal and if you want people to argue the point you should at least read through those previous threads.

dont mind PaulW above - maybe he was never clamped?
Appeal, Appeal, Appeal! I appealed 125euro clamp in June and it was upheld and I was refunded. Different circumstances - but I made such a noise about it. I went to the local paper and local radio and got my photo and story printed. It was worth it.....

Have a go - nobody but you know the helpless frustration of being clamped even though you were trying to do the right thing. Not the mention how hard it is to earn 125 euro these days without having it taken off you by these rogues! Go for it and GOOD LUCK!!

Anan1

squod wrote: »

Clamping is illegal

Source?

kirving

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0113.html#sec113

If the public can easily access it, without having to seek permission first, would it be a public place?

I'd say my front garden is a public place, since I don't have a high wall, or gates.

Anan1

Kevin Irving wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0113.html#sec113

If the public can easily access it, without having to seek permission first, would it be a public place?

I'd say my front garden is a public place, since I don't have a high wall, or gates.

I'd say this bit covers that. And clamping on private property too : (5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

OT, but who writes 'doing that act'

Scealta_saol

squod wrote: »

You seem to have missed the last dozen threads on the matter. Turns out that you're wrong. Clamping is illegal and if you want people to argue the point you should at least read through those previous threads.

I have read through the threads. I believed my response to avoid parking in car parks with clamping enforcement was a legitimate response. I didn't realise people set out to have a confrontation when they could easily avoid the situation by not parking there. I also believe that if clamping were illegal it wouldn't be so prominent in private car parks.

But to go back to the OP - it depends on whether you're a gambler. What's €20 if it could get you the €125 back? I'd say go for it!

Anan1

Scealta_saol wrote: »

I have read through the threads. I believed my response to avoid parking in car parks with clamping enforcement was a legitimate response. I didn't realise people set out to have a confrontation when they could easily avoid the situation by not parking there. I also believe that if clamping were illegal it wouldn't be so prominent in private car parks

Or you could just abide by the rules of the car park owner - that's been working for me for a long time.;)