Ideal Suckler cow for Marginal Land

HillFarmer

Hi All,

First post here afterlooking in for a long time.
looking for some advice from some of you in the suckler business.


Heres the thing, I need to restock about 200 acres of mountain type land with cattle. Its good and dry and not too hilly but its typical mountain land. There is also 15 acres of lowland so I'd be cutting silage of that to be used for the Summer
Its very dry and has an abundance of grass in the Summer.Previous owner about 8 years ago used to have continental sucklers on the land.

I think it could support easily 20 or 30 suckler cows.
Now at the moment I dont have any disposable income to buy heifers or cows so im going to have to go down the calve route.

Im thinking buying in januaryin mart for 220 average a piece.

I'm thinking of buying 20 of either angus, hereford,shorthorn or limousin calves and rearing up to 24 months and keep them as sucklers.
I'd like them off a British friesian cow but I think these could be difficult to source.

What would lets say a angus x Holstein Friesian calve be as a suckler.?

Any reccommendations for cow type and what to use to cross

Next question is what to cross these cows with that would be suited to my terrain.

I'd realy appreciate any advice you have

Thanks

mjcom4d

HillFarmer wrote: »

Hi All,

First post here afterlooking in for a long time.
looking for some advice from some of you in the suckler business.


Heres the thing, I need to restock about 200 acres of mountain type land with cattle. Its good and dry and not too hilly but its typical mountain land. There is also 15 acres of lowland so I'd be cutting silage of that to be used for the Summer
Its very dry and has an abundance of grass in the Summer.Previous owner about 8 years ago used to have continental sucklers on the land.

I think it could support easily 20 or 30 suckler cows.
Now at the moment I dont have any disposable income to buy heifers or cows so im going to have to go down the calve route.

Im thinking buying in januaryin mart for 220 average a piece.

I'm thinking of buying 20 of either angus, hereford,shorthorn or limousin calves and rearing up to 24 months and keep them as sucklers.
I'd like them off a British friesian cow but I think these could be difficult to source.

What would lets say a angus x Holstein Friesian calve be as a suckler.?

Any reccommendations for cow type and what to use to cross

Next question is what to cross these cows with that would be suited to my terrain.

I'd realy appreciate any advice you have

Thanks

Salers

dasheriff

Id advise shorthorn or angus for that kind of land crossed back to limousin you wud have fine hardy cows and smashing calves..but everyone to their own..

Western Pomise

Hope thats a mistype with the 220 a head cos in current climate you wont buy any calf next spring for that!...was in mart last wkd and any heifir calves regardless of age/breed were making 200 with the weight ...up to 450 with the weight.
Angus,shorthorn or saler x prob way to go.
then put with easy calving Angus,shorthorn or Lim bull the first year.,

Kovu

HillFarmer wrote: »

Hi All,

First post here afterlooking in for a long time.
looking for some advice from some of you in the suckler business.


Heres the thing, I need to restock about 200 acres of mountain type land with cattle. Its good and dry and not too hilly but its typical mountain land. There is also 15 acres of lowland so I'd be cutting silage of that to be used for the Summer
Its very dry and has an abundance of grass in the Summer.Previous owner about 8 years ago used to have continental sucklers on the land.

I think it could support easily 20 or 30 suckler cows.
Now at the moment I dont have any disposable income to buy heifers or cows so im going to have to go down the calve route.

Im thinking buying in januaryin mart for 220 average a piece.

I'm thinking of buying 20 of either angus, hereford,shorthorn or limousin calves and rearing up to 24 months and keep them as sucklers.
I'd like them off a British friesian cow but I think these could be difficult to source.

What would lets say a angus x Holstein Friesian calve be as a suckler.?

Any reccommendations for cow type and what to use to cross

Next question is what to cross these cows with that would be suited to my terrain.

I'd realy appreciate any advice you have

Thanks

Few questions to ask before I can say much, if even at all!
1)Are you planning on calving them indoors/or on the land?
2)How much will you see them? once/twice a day?
3)Have you looked into what way you will sell the weans? You say suckler but there are men who sell intact bulls compared to those who sell bullocked.
4)Have you much experience with breeds/calving/looking at cattle on roaming land before?

Don't mean to come across as a cross questioner:p It just helps the people here to answer your query:D

blue5000

Welcome to boards. Lots of questions there, here's a few thoughts

1. AAx holstein cow might be ok, but a lot depends on the holstein cow, could be a problem calving those heifers due to narrow pelvis on the holstein side.
2. A shorthorn x fresian would be very rare now.
3. Limo x fr would be a good cow
4. Saler x would be a good choice, if you are bucket feeding them the bad temperment shouldn't be a problem:mad: They are hardy cattle.
5. All dairy farmers want an easy calving bull, IMO that means narrow

What part of the country are you in and how marginal is the land? There are still a lot of british fresian type cows where Dovea ai station operates; tipp/kilkenny/wexford/waterford area.
You say there was continental cows on the land before, how did that go? My personal choice is angus so I could be a bit biased;) Was looking at Aubrac cattle at Tullamore, they might have potential, hardy? easily fleshed but they are a bit on the small side.

HillFarmer

mjcom4d wrote: »

Salers

I dont have the money to buy Salers. I agree I think they could work very well but they are very scarce and so very expensive.

Also I donth think many dairy men put there Friesian in calf to salers so cant buy them a scalves either.

I can pick up angus heifers around here locally from some dairy farmers for 150 to 200 a piece, only problem is there off holstein cows instead of British friesians

HillFarmer

Western Pomise wrote: »

Hope thats a mistype with the 220 a head cos in current climate you wont buy any calf next spring for that!...was in mart last wkd and any heifir calves regardless of age/breed were making 200 with the weight ...up to 450 with the weight.
Angus,shorthorn or saler x prob way to go.
then put with easy calving Angus,shorthorn or Lim bull the first year.,

No mistype, been following them closely this year in the marts around here, true theyve gone up alot but 220 will get you nice hereford or angus heifer calves. Theres loads of dairy farmers locally aswell so I'd be tempted to buy direct.

Kovu

HillFarmer wrote: »

I dont have the money to buy Salers. I agree I think they could work very well but they are very scarce and so very expensive.

Also I donth think many dairy men put there Friesian in calf to salers so cant buy them a scalves either.

I can pick up angus heifers around here locally from some dairy farmers for 150 to 200 a piece, only problem is there off holstein cows instead of British friesians

If you are looking for weanlings that are of an average-good quality, it is very difficult to breed the narrowness out of a holstein.

HillFarmer

Karen112 wrote: »

Few questions to ask before I can say much, if even at all!
1)Are you planning on calving them indoors/or on the land?
2)How much will you see them? once/twice a day?
3)Have you looked into what way you will sell the weans? You say suckler but there are men who sell intact bulls compared to those who sell bullocked.
4)Have you much experience with breeds/calving/looking at cattle on roaming land before?

Don't mean to come across as a cross questioner:p It just helps the people here to answer your query:D

1.Probably calve them outside in a sheltered field beside the sheds. I've some outhouses which would be good calving sheds so I've options.Dont know yet to be honest.

2. I'll see them once a day at least.

3. No was thinking of starting simple, calve in March, and leave them run on into October November.

I was reared on a farm so grew up calving cows,milking etc. Have been away for a good few years but always had a gra for the land.

Breed choice, cost and how easy they are to source will be a big thing

Dont have alot of money to spend, hence why I have to go the calve route

Appreciate all your thoughts

HillFarmer

blue5000 wrote: »

Welcome to boards. Lots of questions there, here's a few thoughts

1. AAx holstein cow might be ok, but a lot depends on the holstein cow, could be a problem calving those heifers due to narrow pelvis on the holstein side.
2. A shorthorn x fresian would be very rare now.
3. Limo x fr would be a good cow
4. Saler x would be a good choice, if you are bucket feeding them the bad temperment shouldn't be a problem:mad: They are hardy cattle.
5. All dairy farmers want an easy calving bull, IMO that means narrow

What part of the country are you in and how marginal is the land? There are still a lot of british fresian type cows where Dovea ai station operates; tipp/kilkenny/wexford/waterford area.
You say there was continental cows on the land before, how did that go? My personal choice is angus so I could be a bit biased;) Was looking at Aubrac cattle at Tullamore, they might have potential, hardy? easily fleshed but they are a bit on the small side.

Was a bit worried by the Holstein cow alright myself.
In Waterford, and loads of Dairy around here. Must try to find out if any of the neighbours have British frieisans

So you reckon the calves off the holsteins would be a no go.?

Agree Saler but again ccost, they are very scarce.
As for the Limousin friesian, I think that would be a winner but in local marts any continetal heifer are making around the 330 mark for calves 3 or 4 days old upwards. The angus and hereford are bit cheaper, also not many limousing heifer calves make it to the marts.


Ya apparently previous owner had 30 sucklers on it, everything from Charollaois, angus and Limousin. Used to sell off weanlings every year.

Its a good hill, an unreal amount of grass there in the Summer, and you could winter them on it in winter and supplement with silage.

What do use on your angus.?

johngalway

dasheriff wrote: »

Id advise shorthorn or angus for that kind of land crossed back to limousin you wud have fine hardy cows and smashing calves..but everyone to their own..

Dad used to do the same when he kept cattle. Angus and angus x shorthorn cows and limo calves. That was on some pretty poor bogland here in the Wesht, used to do well but he did take good care of them feeding mostly pulp nuts/beef nuts and hay when needed.

Kovu

HillFarmer wrote: »

1.Probably calve them outside in a sheltered field beside the sheds. I've some outhouses which would be good calving sheds so I've options.Dont know yet to be honest.

2. I'll see them once a day at least.

3. No was thinking of starting simple, calve in March, and leave them run on into October November.

I was reared on a farm so grew up calving cows,milking etc. Have been away for a good few years but always had a gra for the land.

Breed choice, cost and how easy they are to source will be a big thing

Dont have alot of money to spend, hence why I have to go the calve route

Appreciate all your thoughts

You sound like you would have a knowledge at least, compared to some I have seen before! I would suggest a continental animal, but as I do not breed them, I cannot suggest any particular breed. Angus x may be your best choice, but if you can source (yourself, I would hope, not a dealer) a british fr/AA cross, it would probably be a better choice than a holstein, if you're going for the suckler market. I have relations who run a CH bull on mountain land with 25ish cows, gets a grand price as the weans are store-ish animals so they will be sold on again around 24 months. I've seen a few british fresian herds up my way, but I reckon they cross with Br Fr again

flatout11

from what you described id opt for saler cows back to a charo
but if your going the angus route i would try to pick them up as weanling s (preferably not from a dairy cross) aa x shorthorn would make a decent cow

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

Dad used to do the same when he kept cattle. Angus and angus x shorthorn cows and limo calves. That was on some pretty poor bogland here in the Wesht, used to do well but he did take good care of them feeding mostly pulp nuts/beef nuts and hay when needed.

Sounds like my set-up in North Mayo which continues to work well(thanx in large part to the father inlaw who knows his cattle and also swears by the breeds mentioned by JG above).:)

mjcom4d

What if you bought in as much heifers you can with your budget because the calves are nearly as dear in some parts you have to rear them and can get sick and there was a post earlier about a calf dying during feeding then you have to wait 3 years or so before you sell calves (calving at 24 months selling calves as yearlings) So its gonna take a while to payoff

zetorman

I think if I was you I would take it nice and easy to start with. Why not buy 3 or 4 springers to start with. That way you are straight into the suckling game.....calving, breeding, weaning etc and you will have a fair idea how you would get on when you grow to bigger numbers. Good luck!!

johngalway

Birdnuts wrote: »

Sounds like my set-up in North Mayo which continues to work well(thanx in large part to the father inlaw who knows his cattle and also swears by the breeds mentioned by JG above).:)

We used to sell beasts every year to the local butchers off that land too, so not only can it be done but it can be done well.

leg wax

angus cow and bull .

M Blackhound

I am in a similar situation of recently returning to the farm. I have been trying to get to grips with what to stock the land with. After intensive research over the last week on the Net I have discovered the following.
1. Know your Market. Are you going to market 'TERMINAL' bull calves for beef or market 'Maternal' Heifers to other suckler farmers for replacements.

2. Plan and stick to one Breeding strategy focused on Terminal or Maternal. Dont do both unless you have over 500 cows. To go the terminal route you need to be fond of spending time in marts or source a reliable British Friesian Dairy herd that can supply you with replacements. You will encounter problems with bio-security at some point with this system.
If you go the maternal route (better for a small set up and hill farms), you will be supplying your own replacements and excess heifers as breeding stock. According to the Farmers Journal last 2 weeks ago, only the top 1-2% of farmers are making profit from their enterprises after you subtract all forms of subsidy. From my research the majority of these are focused on low cost low labour systems made up of traditional breed cows or composites.

Breeding strategy options:
You need to get to grips with the advantages and disadvantages of A: Line breeding Pure breeds, B: Crossbreeding, C: Composites. Purebreeds and composites have the advantages of sticking to one type of bull which makes things easy on a small setup. Crossbreeding means starting with a strategy planned over 10+years and sticking to it. For a small herd like yours this is only possible using AI. To rotate your own bulls will be fine in the first few years but eventually it will become very complex and lead to mongrelisation of the herd. Through a process of elimination I am going to take the composite route as I am thinking long-term min labour and simplicity. There are great examples of crossbreeding setups for hills in Scotland however.

3. Create a setup that will make the most of your farm. The biggest advantage of having dry hill land is you can winter some stock outdoors (environmental conditions permitting), negating the biggest cost on any farm. For this you need traditional hardy breeds. Don't winter continentals on a hill as you will run into big problems.
Pitfalls in Ireland. I concluded from my 1 week crash course that one (there are many more) of the principle reasons Irish and British farmers can't make money from Sucklers is our mismanagement of crossbreeding strategies. In all the large ranches in the world a maternal cow is bred of Angus Herford crosses and sometimes shorthorns. The smaller of these setups (like Ireland) will mate back this herd to a continental and slaughter ALL resulting animals. Continental genes are not allowed to enter breeding females.

Free online information: See Teagasc Today's farm pamphlet: JULY-AUGUST 2010 VOLUME 21 NUMBER 4
http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/livestock/livestock-features/real-purpose-puts-nick-in-the-black/32197.article
http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1254341423Robert_Parker_Nuffield_Report_2006.pdf
http://www.jennifermackenzie.co.uk/2007/11/01_playfair.html

MOSSAD

Shorthorn or a shorthorn cross

redzerologhlen

The op said he was was going to be grazing mountain type land. This can vary a lot from bog to rocky lad to fairly good grazing. Id be inclined to stay away from anything with dairy blood from our experience here in the burren. If your farming middling land like that your going to want a fairly easy fleshed cow or your going to run into problems with poor cows not coming in heat and you will have to feed them for longer over the winter. Salers despite having half a foot of hair are very cold hard fed cattle imo, The uncle has a few of them and they get shocking poor every winter. Angus would be the best option I would think and they are very easy look after but I would try and stay away from anything with too much friesan blood. Also beware when buying that if the land is rough and overgrown there is a danger of cattle getting redwater.

blue5000

HillFarmer wrote: »

Ya apparently previous owner had 30 sucklers on it, everything from Charollaois, angus and Limousin. Used to sell off weanlings every year.

Its a good hill, an unreal amount of grass there in the Summer, and you could winter them on it in winter and supplement with silage.

What do use on your angus.?

Blonde as a terminal sire, and this year Aubrac on the 1st calvers.

Atilathehun

MOSSAD wrote: »

Shorthorn or a shorthorn cross

I have a couple of Charolais cows here, which great grand mothers were grey shorthorn cows. Used charolais bulls only down the line from that, whicj makes these cows 88% charolais plus 12% shorthorn.
Compared to a couple of pure charolais I have, these cows with just 12% shorthorn, have three times the milk. Without question.
I'm on the look out for a couple of shorthorn heifers at the moment, to get back the milk in more cows for future.

Bizzum

M Blackhound wrote: »

I am in a similar situation of recently returning to the farm. I have been trying to get to grips with what to stock the land with. After intensive research over the last week on the Net I have discovered the following.
1. Know your Market. Are you going to market 'TERMINAL' bull calves for beef or market 'Maternal' Heifers to other suckler farmers for replacements.

2. Plan and stick to one Breeding strategy focused on Terminal or Maternal. Dont do both unless you have over 500 cows. To go the terminal route you need to be fond of spending time in marts or source a reliable British Friesian Dairy herd that can supply you with replacements. You will encounter problems with bio-security at some point with this system.
If you go the maternal route (better for a small set up and hill farms), you will be supplying your own replacements and excess heifers as breeding stock. According to the Farmers Journal last 2 weeks ago, only the top 1-2% of farmers are making profit from their enterprises after you subtract all forms of subsidy. From my research the majority of these are focused on low cost low labour systems made up of traditional breed cows or composites.

Breeding strategy options:
You need to get to grips with the advantages and disadvantages of A: Line breeding Pure breeds, B: Crossbreeding, C: Composites. Purebreeds and composites have the advantages of sticking to one type of bull which makes things easy on a small setup. Crossbreeding means starting with a strategy planned over 10+years and sticking to it. For a small herd like yours this is only possible using AI. To rotate your own bulls will be fine in the first few years but eventually it will become very complex and lead to mongrelisation of the herd. Through a process of elimination I am going to take the composite route as I am thinking long-term min labour and simplicity. There are great examples of crossbreeding setups for hills in Scotland however.

3. Create a setup that will make the most of your farm. The biggest advantage of having dry hill land is you can winter some stock outdoors (environmental conditions permitting), negating the biggest cost on any farm. For this you need traditional hardy breeds. Don't winter continentals on a hill as you will run into big problems.
Pitfalls in Ireland. I concluded from my 1 week crash course that one (there are many more) of the principle reasons Irish and British farmers can't make money from Sucklers is our mismanagement of crossbreeding strategies. In all the large ranches in the world a maternal cow is bred of Angus Herford crosses and sometimes shorthorns. The smaller of these setups (like Ireland) will mate back this herd to a continental and slaughter ALL resulting animals. Continental genes are not allowed to enter breeding females.

Free online information: See Teagasc Today's farm pamphlet: JULY-AUGUST 2010 VOLUME 21 NUMBER 4
http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/livestock/livestock-features/real-purpose-puts-nick-in-the-black/32197.article
http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1254341423Robert_Parker_Nuffield_Report_2006.pdf
http://www.jennifermackenzie.co.uk/2007/11/01_playfair.html

Welcome to Boards Blackhound. Interesting first post.

There is however a lot more to farming than,- The Internet,- The Farmers Journal and - Teagasc!
I have come across better advice on here than the aforementioned combined.
What set-up have you decided on?

irishh_bob

redzerologhlen wrote: »

The op said he was was going to be grazing mountain type land. This can vary a lot from bog to rocky lad to fairly good grazing. Id be inclined to stay away from anything with dairy blood from our experience here in the burren. If your farming middling land like that your going to want a fairly easy fleshed cow or your going to run into problems with poor cows not coming in heat and you will have to feed them for longer over the winter. Salers despite having half a foot of hair are very cold hard fed cattle imo, The uncle has a few of them and they get shocking poor every winter. Angus would be the best option I would think and they are very easy look after but I would try and stay away from anything with too much friesan blood. Also beware when buying that if the land is rough and overgrown there is a danger of cattle getting redwater.

how did your uncle find the salers in terms of temprement ?

redzerologhlen

irishh_bob wrote: »

how did your uncle find the salers in terms of temprement ?

His arent too bad but he only has 4 or 5 of them and I know a few other people with some of them that say they are very warey around calving but any cow can be that way. The breed lovely charolais calves though.

pakalasa

redzerologhlen wrote: »

... Salers despite having half a foot of hair are very cold hard fed cattle imo, The uncle has a few of them and they get shocking poor every winter....

I'm surprised you said that. I've seen them locally out grazing during the winter and I thought they looked hardy, with a fine long hair. But I suppose they are French.:D
I think like the Polar Bear, outwintered cattle need a good covering of fat under the skin....so it's the Hereford or Angus for that.

redzerologhlen

Bizzum wrote: »

There is however a lot more to farming than,- The Internet,- The Farmers Journal and - Teagasc!
I have come across better advice on here than the aforementioned combined.

Totally agree Bizzum. Theres nothing like hearing first hand experience of the people doing it every day.

redzerologhlen

pakalasa wrote: »

I'm surprised you said that. I've seen them locally out grazing during the winter and I thought they looked hardy, with a fine long hair. But I suppose they are French.:D
I think like the Polar Bear, outwintered cattle need a good covering of fat under the skin....so it's the Hereford or Angus for that.

Just calling it as I see it:D Im not against them by any means cause they are very good breeding cows but the hair is a bit deceptive me thinks. He feed's them on the winterage with his limo cows and they always hold much better above in it!!

irishh_bob

redzerologhlen wrote: »

His arent too bad but he only has 4 or 5 of them and I know a few other people with some of them that say they are very warey around calving but any cow can be that way. The breed lovely charolais calves though.

agree with that , they can calve an elephant

sh1tstirrer

What about belted galloway bred in Scotland to survive on the mountain.

redzerologhlen

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

What about belted galloway bred in Scotland to survive on the mountain.

I have a pure dinger of a one here:)



Id say they grade well:rolleyes:

redzerologhlen

irishh_bob wrote: »

agree with that , they can calve an elephant

They would want to be able to cause from what I hear its hard enough to get near a lot of them when they do go calving.

follett

black white heads and angus are good for the mountain