Trainee Wages

altercor

Folks,

A well beaten path here, I know. Im just wondering if there is anyone who has any advice in relation to asking the dreaded 'raise' question?

Thanks in advance.

McCrack

I think you are doing very well with that salary. That's higher than most trainees. Most are on minimum wage (if even).

Have you checked for a bursary, loan from your master, loan from a bank/credit union?

altercor

McCrack wrote: »

I think you are doing very well with that salary. That's higher than most trainees. Most are on minimum wage (if even).

Have you checked for a bursary, loan from your master, loan from a bank/credit union?

Sorry McCrack, I should have been more clear. My salary is per annum..

blueythebear

altercor wrote: »

Folks,

A well beaten path here, I know. Im just wondering if there is anyone who has any advice in relation to asking the dreaded 'raise' question? I mean, my salary is currently €2,200..Yes that's right, 2,200..Im post PPC 1 and all exams passed.. I know we arent exactly running the office but my hands are kind of tied in that I took the job under those conditions but now with fees for PPC2 and my folks not being able to help out, Im actually at risk of not being able to afford to qualify! I dont qualify for a grant as I had to move back home and my parents are self employed so their business accounts are assessed rather than their take home pay..

I know Im not alone with this. Im jsut wondering what others did, if anything.

Thanks in advance.

When you say €2,200, is that per month? If that's the case, PPC II doesn't start until April 2012. That's plenty of time to save as much as you can to cover fees if you're on that kind of money.

Are you getting paid during PPCII? If not you'll need to obviously save extra money to cover living expenses in PPC II as well.

After this, you could possibly apply for a grant despite the fact that you're living at home. You could still be eligible.

THere's also the option of Bank loans if you could get your parents to guarantee them.



EDIT: Just saw that you're on €2,200 per annum. That's pretty scandalous. That's about €1 per hour. I know that apprenticeships are scarce but you really have done yourself a disservice by accepting those conditions. Your only option is to seek loans from the Bank with your parents going guarantee for you. If that can't be done and you have no access to the required cash, you'll unfortunately have to kick up a fuss over your wages with your employer and the Law Society.

Sala

How is that possible - that's 42 euro a week?! How did that even happen?

altercor

Sala wrote: »

How is that possible - that's 42 euro a week?! How did that even happen?

EDITED*REMOVED*

Sala

That's terrible. A couple of years ago when I started the FE1s I thought taking a big pay cut to work for minimum wage as an apprentice would be hard enough - little did I know...:o

I think you need to talk to them, outline what you contribute and emphasise that you deserve minimum wage at least. To be honest, it is unlikely they they will be willing to pay you 18k a year if they are only paying 2200 at the moment so you may well need to go to the Law Society. Have you looked for a secondment or another contract?

Edit: P

Art of me thinks they'll just say that I accepted the job under those conditions.

I wouldn't worry about that to be honest - you did accept the job under those conditions however they should never have offered those conditions in the first place!! They are in the wrong, not you by asking to be paid for your work

altercor

EDITED REMOVED

I was right when I was 5. Astronaut was the way to go...

blueythebear

altercor wrote: »

Would you believe there are 3 of us here on the same salary!? As regards a secondment, for some reason which escapes me, I feel some perverse sense of loyalty towards the office..Actually, I think they call that Stockholm Syndrome, don't they?

I plan to ask about a raise alright. Im going to base it around figures (fees, living expenses for PPC 2 etc..) Im not located in Dublin so a lease for 3 months will have to be negotiated at a premium too, I reckon.

I was right when I was 5. Astronaut was the way to go...

3 of you on €4,400 per year?

That means that the firm must be relatively large or certainly has enough work for all of you to be doing. That being the case, there should be no financial problem with paying you all the proper wages if the firm is being run properly. So it's either a case that your training solicitor is incredibly miserly or the firm is run extremely poorly. Either way, I'd question the value of the training you're receiving.

To resolve that immediate problem, you should all be looking for secondments. You owe that firm no loyalty whatsoever and I'd suggest if it is at all possible to change training solicitors, you should do so.

altercor

blueythebear wrote: »

3 of you on €4,400 per year?

EDITED REMOVED

Sala

I think this is the "you're lucky to have a training contract at all" frame of mind- people accept these appalling conditions just to qualify. I am still looking for a contract and despite a few tentative "we could train you but not afford to pay you" responses I've had no luck. It is funny - as i said I used to think minimum wage was going to be a struggle - now I feel like I would be lucky to get a training contract offering it, despite the fact everyone should be on minimum wage or above.

I was right when I was 5. Astronaut was the way to go...

When I finished college I didn't know what career I wanted and needed to do more study to get a professional career (as I have an arts degree). For me it was a toss up between this, or becoming an estate agent Hindsight is 20/20...

altercor

Every week I walk past the Social Welfare Office..I look longingly at the queue!

If I were on minimum wage I wouldnt know what to do with myself. I may actually get to put more than the weekly 15e petrol in my car. I may be able to afford to have a pint now and again..

We can only dream!

Grolschevik

This may be out of date, but still...

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/education/TrainingSol/mintraineesalaries.pdf

In Office Period
"Training Solicitors are obliged to pay trainees at least the minimum wage provided for in the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 (NMWA 2000). From 1st of February 2011 the national minimum wage of €7.65 per hour for an experienced adult employee comes into effect (reduced from €8.65). However, with regard to existing employees who were on the previous rate, employers should have regard to contractual obligations."

McCrack

altercor wrote: »

Sorry McCrack, I should have been more clear. My salary is €2,200 per annum..

Ok right this is what you need to do. You need to politely but firmly point out the Minimum Wage Act. It's not reasonable to pay a person that money. Nobody can argue with you on that.

If he/she doesn't or "cant afford" it, you make a claim to the Rights Commissioner. Your master is bound by a deed of indenture and you also have employment rights. Use your own leverage in that regard, takes a bit of balls yes but just do it.

Nobody will begrudge you.

Don't bother with the Law Society, they will not help and indeed don't have the power to interfere in what essentially is an employment rights issue.

Sala

Every week I walk past the Social Welfare Office..I look longingly at the queue!

If I were on minimum wage I wouldn't know what to do with myself. I may actually get to put more than the weekly 15e petrol in my car. I may be able to afford to have a pint now and again..

We can only dream!

I really feel sorry for you to be honest - no matter how valuable the qualification is to you the situation you are in is awful. You need to leave to be honest. At least you now have an edge over all the post FE1, pre Blackhall people!!

jblack

McCrack wrote: »

Ok right this is what you need to do. You need to politely but firmly point out the Minimum Wage Act. It's not reasonable to pay a person that money. Nobody can argue with you on that.

If he/she doesn't or "cant afford" it, you make a claim to the Rights Commissioner. Your master is bound by a deed of indenture and you also have employment rights. Use your own leverage in that regard, takes a bit of balls yes but just do it.

Nobody will begrudge you.

Don't bother with the Law Society, they will not help and indeed don't have the power to interfere in what essentially is an employment rights issue.

Sorry McCrack but hauling your training solicitor up before EAT/Rights Commissioner is not a smart long term career move.

Understandably it's upsetting and unfair to work for basically nothing but reputation is more important in the long run.

I would proffer the argument that the most important factor for the OP to think about is employability upon qualification. If they're paying you that little now then it's highly unlikely you will be offered anything approaching decent upon qualification.

Totally agree about LS - a waste of time.

McCrack

I appreciate that, but like I said a bit of balls, alternatively (and this is what I would be inclined to do) if a plea for minimum wage in line with the legislation falls on deaf ears, hold out for a secondment or until the training contact is over, assess the situation and if they are not keeping you on and you are let go then lodge a claim into the Rights Commissioner and expect a nice tidy sum awarded against them in your favour.

What's good for the goose and all that..

altercor

Ya,

Thanks for the advice guys.

blueythebear

McCrack wrote: »

then lodge a claim into the Rights Commissioner and expect a nice tidy sum awarded against them in your favour.

Nice tidy sum? I would have thougt that the maximum would be the existing minimum wage for 6 months (being the time limit for Payment of Wages claims (presuming you cannot get that extended to 12 months)) less the amount paid? You're talking about coming out with half a year at the minimum wage less 6 months of what the OP was actually paid and then income tax on top of that. You're talking about a maximum of €5,500 of reward and you'll get no reference from your training solicitor and a bad reputation for disloyalty within what is a fairly small industry.

That doesn't even take into account any obstacles that this type of solicitor will put in the path of the OP, e.g. appealing the decision of the Rights Commissioner / EAT and / or just not paying requiring enforcement and registration of the judgement. Alot of work for this kind of sum.

nuac

Does the firm have three solicitors entitled to train (what we used to call apprentices )?

Is there a managing solicitor or managing partner?

If so one of you should discuss iit with him or her.

altercor

nuac wrote: »

Does the firm have three solicitors entitled to train (what we used to call apprentices )?

Is there a managing solicitor or managing partner?

If so one of you should discuss iit with him or her.

EDITED REMOVED

McCrack

blueythebear wrote: »

Nice tidy sum? I would have thougt that the maximum would be the existing minimum wage for 6 months (being the time limit for Payment of Wages claims (presuming you cannot get that extended to 12 months)) less the amount paid? You're talking about coming out with half a year at the minimum wage less 6 months of what the OP was actually paid and then income tax on top of that. You're talking about a maximum of €5,500 of reward and you'll get no reference from your training solicitor and a bad reputation for disloyalty within what is a fairly small industry.

That doesn't even take into account any obstacles that this type of solicitor will put in the path of the OP, e.g. appealing the decision of the Rights Commissioner / EAT and / or just not paying requiring enforcement and registration of the judgement. Alot of work for this kind of sum.

I'm not going to get into the intricacies of employment law and redress on this thread but there there is certainly potential for claiming full loss of earnings and compensation in the ordinary sense.

The point being there is fora there for the OP to make good their loss. Whether it's advisable to go down that route is another issue.

blueythebear

McCrack wrote: »

I'm not going to get into the intricacies of employment law and redress on this thread but there there is certainly potential for claiming full loss of earnings and compensation in the ordinary sense.

The point being there is fora there for the OP to make good their loss. Whether it's advisable to go down that route is another issue.

I can certainly see your point but the point that I was making was that the potential benefit for going down the road of redress under employment law (I don't see a cause of action in contract as Indentures are silent on remuneration) is far outweighed by the negatives in that it could be a long slog trying to realise any award made, the award is small, but most of all, it wouldn't do your fledgling reputation any good at a time when you are just starting out in a legal career.

There is potential redress, but it's probably not worth the hassle.

McCrack

In fairness a NQ doesnt have a reputation in legal circles, any kind (good or bad) of name takes a few years to establish and like I said earlier I think most rational people would understand if the OP took a stand in a tribunal and/or courts against this kind of treatment.

This kind of thing is illegal and wrong.