Gait Analysis-Which is better?

JohnnyCrash

Hi guys,just looking for opinions on which type of gait analysis(do you think) is better-treadmill or force plates? Cheers in advance

RayCun

I've never seen the force plates...
The best gait analysis is

1. Free
2. Carried out by someone who knows what they're talking about

clubcard

Have to agree with Raycun on ''someone who knows what they are talking about''
Places like Elverys are a disgrace,running you on the threadmill at 7-8kph.

geld

I don't fully agree with your Elvery's comment Clubcard or maybe I have been lucky. I have used Elvery's in Dundrum and on both occasions was dealing with ''someone who knows what they are talking about''.

The other two shops where I have had gait analysis done is in Amphibian King and in Runways in Parnell Street. AK use a short track and Runways use a threadmill. Both positive experiences.

I have never had my gait assessed by force plates and don't know if any running shop do it this way. I would be interested if I knew of any that did.

JohnnyCrash

geld wrote: »

I don't fully agree with your Elvery's comment Clubcard or maybe I have been lucky. I have used Elvery's in Dundrum and on both occasions was dealing with ''someone who knows what they are talking about''.

The other two shops where I have had gait analysis done is in Amphibian King and in Runways in Parnell Street. AK use a short track and Runways use a threadmill. Both positive experiences.

I have never had my gait assessed by force plates and don't know if any running shop do it this way. I would be interested if I knew of any that did.

Reason im asking is ive also had it done in Elverys.Was told i over pronate,which,i gather is what 80% of people do? But wasnt told (hindsight is a great thing) whether im a slight,moderate or severe over pronator,which has bearing on the level of stability shoe i would need. I heard about force plate gait analysis,the local physio uses it,dont know if any shops use it.Im assuming this method would be more scientific and take a lot of the guesswork out.Would this be a reasonable assumption to make?

RayCun

That physio will probably charge you, and might not know a lot about shoes.

JohnnyCrash

RayCun wrote: »

That physio will probably charge you, and might not know a lot about shoes.

Id have no problem paying for an accurate analysis. As to the physio not knowing about shoes,once id have an accurate analysis,would be up to the shop to recommend shoes,or, i could search the net for recommendations myself

RayCun

Why not go up to the shop first?

JohnnyCrash

RayCun wrote: »

Why not go up to the shop first?

As ive said in a previous post,and as other posters have said,in shops,depending on which one you go to,gait analysis can be pretty hit and miss unless the person doing it really knows what they're at,thats all. As ive also said before,im new to running,so didnt realise running was so technical,got gait done(in a shop),it was like"You're an overpronator",assumed the person knew what they were talking about and that was it.Again,in hindsight,and from what im learning as i go along,i dont think the person that did my gait was qualified to do it i.e. I dont think"You're an overpronator" is a correct analysis? (correct me if im wrong)that ,there are varying degrees of it,and different shoes to suit same? So,to that end,i was wondering if the force plate gait analysis would be a more failsafe method done by a person properly qualified to do so?

RayCun

But you probably want to go to a good shop to get your runners anyway.
Amphibian King and Runways are always recommended on here for their expertise. If you go to them first, and you aren't confident in their expertise, then you've lost nothing. You can still go to the physio.
But if you go to the physio, then go to the shop and realise that you didn't need to go to the physio... you're still down the cost of the gait analysis.

JohnnyCrash

RayCun wrote: »

But you probably want to go to a good shop to get your runners anyway.
Amphibian King and Runways are always recommended on here for their expertise. If you go to them first, and you aren't confident in their expertise, then you've lost nothing. You can still go to the physio.
But if you go to the physio, then go to the shop and realise that you didn't need to go to the physio... you're still down the cost of the gait analysis.

Fair enough. Can anyone recommend a good shop in the SE? I also cant help wondering how many people have been ill advised ,ended up injured and ended up going to a physio anyway,or even just gave up?

Head The Wall

The OH went to Amphibian King in Oranmore and they put her on what I presume is force plate analysis i.e standing on a pad which outlined what part of her feet touched the ground. They also filmed her running and analysed from that also, she did mention about the different types of over pronating and seemed to know her stuff in relation to the runners and balancing it what type of running the customer will be doing. The OH was also allowed to test run three different pairs before deciding.

I had a similar experience as yourself in Elverys who said I over pronate and that was it. I don't run on the road much so I just went with trail runners that looked the part in the end.

eldiva

The force plates will just give an outline of the foot, which will differ from when you static to when you run.

I've tried the gait analysis in AK and runways, and while I found AK good, I found Runways analysis poor. I mildly over-pronation and was told this by AK, New York running shop and Runners Needs in London. Runways told me i severly pronate on one foot, and mildly on the other. When I asked about Nike Zoom Elite I was using at the time, I was told they would be fine for racing but not for everyday use, even tho they are a training shoe. So poor experience from Runways.

I found staff in Elverys on Suffolk St very knowledgeable, when i was there recently. The staff explained the gait to me in detail, and took time to explain benefits of shoes in each brand, and didn't go with most expensive.

tunney

More importantly is your gait the same when fresh as fatigued?

Mine isn't. I'm neutral when tested in a shop fresh. However after a big volume week or after 1.2-2 hours running I'm a mild over pronator

RubyK

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

Can anyone recommend a good shop in the SE?

Alfie Hales in Waterford. I haven't had it done there myself, but I have a couple of friends who found them very good for gait analysis.

W.B. Yeats

I've posted on this before:
Like Tunney I think there are big differences in gait depending on level of fatigue, type of running being done, one day to the next. I'm sceptical about the benefits of Gait Analysis although I've had it done. I cannot find any peer reviewed journal published research that proves or suggests that Gait analysis and correct shoe selection has an impact on the level of injury suffered by runners.

To me its the classic "service" that a salesperson will provide to get you to buy from them rather than somewhere else. Its a free extra as it were- that drives footfall (no pun intended).

As someone above eluded to: I'd be interested to see what training Gait Analysers receive...... because in many ways its the interpretation of the results that is most important.
I bought shoes after having my Gait analysed and my foot structure looked at.
Basically I'm neutral with normal arches. The shoes that I bought turned out to be for a neutral runner with fallen arches..... I relied on the gait analyser to sell me the correct shoes based on my results.

sconhome

Head The Wall wrote: »

The OH went to Amphibian King in Oranmore and they put her on what I presume is force plate analysis i.e standing on a pad which outlined what part of her feet touched the ground. They also filmed her running and analysed from that also, she did mention about the different types of over pronating and seemed to know her stuff in relation to the runners and balancing it what type of running the customer will be doing. The OH was also allowed to test run three different pairs before deciding.

The force plate we use is a pressure plate which takes a heat imprint of the base of your foot to give us an idea of your arch form.

It may also indicate if you are possibly injured by the depth of the imprint colour. You may have a balance issue where more weight is on one leg that the other. This is important in our understanding your running style and any history of injury you may have.

While we are not physios / sports therapist or other rehab specialists we are all runners or triathletes who have had a decent amount of experience in our particular sports field and also with injury management and prevention of our own. This helps us to understand what the customers are saying to us. Listening is an important part of the gait analysis process.

Regarding training. All of the Amphibian King staff under go regular technical sessions with the tech staff (not sales people) from the different shoe companies. In these sessions the pros and cons of each shoe is explained and examples of correct application or fitting (as in type of gait) of the shoe are demonstrated.

Our experience as runners is paramount in helping identify the correct shoe for each client. Technically the gait analysis is more about knowing the purpose of each shoe and having the experience to match that to the customers requirements.

Our experience will also tell us that the gait will change whether you are tired or fresh (as per W.B Yeats points above) and this is why we ask questions. How long are you running? what's your current goals? any injuries? how did you last / current shoe perform? where do you do your running? what kind of surface do you run on?

Knowing that the majority of people will go from a mild pronator (for example) to a more severe form of pronation over a longer distance as their form deteoriates comes from listening, experience dictates the best shoes to recommend for the customer.

We also invite customers to 'field' test the shoes with a run outside to help them understand what a shoe is doing for them.

We further have a 28 day guaranteed satisfaction policy on any of our recommendations. If the shoe doesn't do what we expect it to do for you we will take it back and will replace with a more appropriate shoe. This may be the case where a customer has changed style of shoe completely and there is too much arch support, causing blisters (for example).

I hope this helps answer some of the questions.

sconhome

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

I cannot find any peer reviewed journal published research that proves or suggests that Gait analysis and correct shoe selection has an impact on the level of injury suffered by runners.

Much of this would be anecdota as many people do not associate injury with incorrect shoe selection.

There are a lot of people that have injury histories that coincide with changing shoes. The most common is a beginner over pronator who got lucky with their first selection of an ASICS 1100 series shoe which gave enough support over their first 6 months to 5-8km.

As the running bug caught they, on a recommendation from a fellow runner, bought the ASICS Nimbus, shelling out big money and injury starts. The last thing blamed is the expensive specialist shoe.

I have videos, which I cannot share, of people who are presenting themselves to us with knee, hip and back pain which is entirely down to the incorrect shoe being used for their gait.

eldiva

tunney wrote: »

More importantly is your gait the same when fresh as fatigued?

Mine isn't. I'm neutral when tested in a shop fresh. However after a big volume week or after 1.2-2 hours running I'm a mild over pronator

Yes I have got analysised both fresh and after I have run a half-marathon and both have been the same

tendon

[I have videos, which I cannot share, of people who are presenting themselves to us with knee, hip and back pain which is entirely down to the incorrect shoe being used for their gait.[/QUOTE]

How can you possibly prove or even justify that comment?
Shoe companies or their researchers have never produced peer reveiwed research to show that injury or performance are improved with the "correct" shoe and indeed customised orthotics have had similiar failure to show benefit in research trials. Do you just know more than the rest of us in the musculoskeletal/sports field? You really should share this "evidence" you have with the rest of the scientific/clinical world or just stop bluffing.

Pronation is NOT BAD. There are no norms in the literature for pronation when we run. This means that trying to use gait analysis to say someone is a moderate or severe overpronator is a fallacy. Your pelvis and hip musculature is far more important for limiting lower limb internal rotation which has been identified as a real risk factor in musculoskeltal lower limb injuries. A Recent study has showed that ITB/Patellafemoral symtoms can be changed with a focus on running patterns to reduce hip adduction/internal roation.

Running shoes simply need to be comfortable that is the one factor in the research that is a consistent finding. The rest is just been dazzled by pseudo science that means nothing. There is an interesting paper by Mcpoil who used to work with adidas I thiink which showed that your foot is never in a neutral position i.e its NORMAL to be in pronation not some kind of scary disability.

Bottom line is their is no link between gait analysis findings, the shoe type and subsequent injuries/performance. The caveat to this is that if you have run in a kayano for 5 years and it was comfortable then if you switch to a dunnes stores runner you are likely to be at risk of injury simply because your foot musculature has become accustomed to the support been provided. Its the same reason why people who start barefoot running without doing a sufficient streghtening program to adapt their lower limb musculature tend to run into problems.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

We further have a 28 day guaranteed satisfaction policy on any of our recommendations. If the shoe doesn't do what we expect it to do for you we will take it back and will replace with a more appropriate shoe.

I've used this facility in the Dublin store and it was appreciated

amphkingwest wrote: »

how did you last / current shoe perform?

To be honest this is all someone with knowledge of their stock needs, the videos are more of a gimmick IMHO.

I've got gait analysis done in Runways and AK. I've not thought much of either. In fact for AK I've returned the shoes (see above).

HOWEVER with both Runways and AK I have rung them both up and said "I'm running in X, its been discontinued, I love it, have you something like it"?. In both cases I made sure to talk to the main guy and after a brief chat they both made suggestions on a shoe that was a similar weight, ramp, cushioning and supoort (One a saucony shoe, one a Mizuno). I told both I would take them I asked both to stick them in the post based on what they thought that the shoes would size to compared to X. Turns out both shoes were just what I wanted.

Knowledge of stock and running is the main thing in my mind. I am happy to give my repeat business to both stores, and do, but I skip the analysis.

sconhome

tendon wrote: »

How can you possibly prove or even justify that comment?

Without getting into a huge debate on a very broad, subjective topic (at this time) you are more than welcome at any time to call in I can show you the example I am speaking of.

The customer was suffering with knee and hip problems as a result of exagerated over pronation caused by her chosen running shoe.

The shoe was a super soft spongy shoe which was marketed as being a toning shoe. As a result of the massive over pronation and by 'exagerated' I mean that the normal degree of pronation of the foot was amplified by a shoe which had no structure into an injury causing position.

The person's physio had recommended that they come to us to be correctly fitted for running shoes rather than being put into an orthotic, which in this case may have been counter productive. I am not a diagnostician and have never alluded to having a greater knowledge at any point regarding biomechanics or muscloskeletal issues. That is the realm of trained specialists.

Pronation is normal, nobody is contradicting that. It is the body's shock absorption system. For many of us the natural system has been deadened by years of wearing all sorts of differing footwear, lifestyle etc.

sconhome

tendon wrote: »

There is an interesting paper by Mcpoil who used to work with adidas I thiink which showed that your foot is never in a neutral position i.e its NORMAL to be in pronation not some kind of scary disability

If you have a link for this I would be interested in reading it, thanks.

tendon

amphkingwest wrote: »

Without getting into a huge debate on a very broad, subjective topic (at this time) you are more than welcome at any time to call in I can show you the example I am speaking of.


Pronation is normal, nobody is contradicting that. It is the body's shock absorption system. For many of us the natural system has been deadened by years of wearing all sorts of differing footwear, lifestyle etc.

The whole point is that it is not subjective. 30 years of running shoe research and orthotic research has produced nothing to even support a percentage of the wild claims for running shoes. That is an objective finding i.e. research is carried out and fails to show benefit. The running shoe industry is based on myths that marketing continues to drive. To use the phrase "at this time" suggests that the research is divided or that there has not been sufficient research which just is not the case.

Pronation is the foots shock absorbing system not the bodys. The pelvis and lower limbs are far larger and have immensely more muscle strenght and endurance than the foot which makes them far more important than the foot as a shock absorber.

Ultimately selling a story to people that gait analysis can identify excessive pronation and that this can be altered with a specific shoe and that this then leads to less injury is just a myth. Use a shoe that is comfortable and supportive , concentrate on hip/knee position when running and improve your hip/pelvic control and endurance.

There are no magic shoes. If someone asked for research evidence to prove that gait analysis and a particular shoe reduced injuries what would you say?

Tom mcpoil is a professor at Regis university in the states. His bibliography might be available on their home page

sconhome

This may be better off in a separate thread as a discussion as this is vering off the OP original query.

Tendon, I'm not disagreeing with you.

When I refer to the topic being subjective - I am simply highlighting that what works for me does not necessarily work for the next person. In this context it it difficult not to get into specifics of individual circumstances of history, body weight, past or present injury, fitness, general conditioning etc when discussing degrees of pronation.

To be clear, I work in a running shoe shop, my job is providing customers with the best advice I can give with respect to each of their individual needs and requirements with running and ultimately helping them select the shoe that works best for their foot.

It is a process where I start by talking with them, discuss their history (if any), and only then looking at their foot function on slow replay of video. From the video I can explain if there is an issue with their gait and select several shoes that will help by providing support if needed or additional cushioning if needed.

The customer is included in this and very often can see exactly what is happening.

By reshooting videos in the different shoes we can see which provides the ideal level of support and cushioning and the customer will make the final decision based on their own individual comfort and fit needs.

This is not rocket science, it is not snake oil, it is a case of understanding the differences between the shoes and the best application of the shoe.

This is far better than what I did when I first started running and suffered for a long time with ITB problems.

Yes there is a whole lot of money spent marketing shoes to the masses. There is also a whole lot of money spent in biomechanical research by the shoe companies (specifically I'm thinking Saucony and Mizuno) to develop shoes that function properly.

The ideal of the cushioned shoe with the heel to toe differential was developed to allow 'every joe' to take up running. Historically, elite runners ran in plimsoles, but these individuals had time and ability to allow themselves to condition their bodies to run in these zero shoes. In much the same manner than many people are chosing, nowadays, to transition from 12mm h-t differential shoes to 8, 6, 4 and zero barefoot running.

If someone asked for research evidence to prove that gait analysis and a particular shoe reduced injuries what would you say?

As with everything, I would be honest and say I don't know of any. But I would qualify that by also adding that no one particular shoe is the magic shoe. I think we agree on this.

A particular set of gait characteristics may be comlimented by a particular shoe and it is this objective that we set out to achieve through video analysis.

By example: I wear the Mizuno Inspire (Supportive), I have also used the Mizuno Rider (Neutral <13.5stone), Mizuno Ronin (Neutral racer), Saucony Triumph (Neutral), ASICS 2160 (Supportive). Of them all, the Inspire is the only one that allows me to run long or short distances without injury. But that is me & my unique set of biomechanical issues from the feet up. I can run 5-10 in the neutrals but will have tightness in the hip on subsequent days. The 2160 offers too much support for me and results in contact blisters on the arch of my foot.

I have found the Regis page and Dr. McPoil's research listing. I will try and get copies of his papers as I am interested in learning.

tendon

Hi Amphkingwest your explanation of where you are coming from is excellent and I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. I am in no way having a go at you and you have been very polite in your responses to my rants.

It sounds like you have really good skills to help people chose running shoes. I am simply asking people to ask themselves a simple question - If gait analysis and force plates were able to assign correct shoes to people to correct their mechanics then why is there no published research to prove injury reduction? Can you imagine how much a shoe company would market research like that? They certainly would not be keeping it secret!

Thanks again it was a good discussion

RayCun

tendon wrote: »

If gait analysis and force plates were able to assign correct shoes to people to correct their mechanics then why is there no published research to prove injury reduction?

What published research would you point to as a demonstrating the effectiveness of any method of injury prevention? I'm genuinely curious.

tendon

Its a great question.There is generally a lack of research out there on prevention. however in lower limb injury prevention there are some good studies to show that specific exercise programs that focus on improving neuromuscular control can significantly reduce injury rates for example see Kramer and Knoblock 2009 for hamstring injury prevention/recurrence, Alentorn-Geli et al 2009 for excellent literature review knee/ankle exercise programs for injury prevention reviews, Holmich 2010 for groin injury reduction.

Basically there is a growing evidence base to show that neuromuscular training is capable of reducing lower limb injuries. Beneficial findings in Orthotics and shoe research is non existant in comparison