Another Scam ?

AlekSmart

I wondered why my bank (PTSB) rather preemptorily decided to dispense with Laser as it's debit card product.

I had never had a moments difficulty with the Laser,except for some on-line or foreign transactions which I tended to use my Credit card for anyway.

Only lately did I become aware that LASER was an irish product,which I would have thought increased it's appeal to Irish based banks and their customers.

However todays news,somewhat belatedly and after-the-fact reveals to us,those same customers that,perhaps unsurprisingly,our Banks are attempting another stunt to increase their "take" from ordinary customers carrying out ordinary day-to-day transactions.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/surviving-the-recession/customers-to-suffer-as-shops-pass-on-hike-in-card-fees-2846487.html

But the new Visa cards have charges imposed on retailers of up to 1.55pc per transaction.

On a €500 purchase, this will mean charges for the retailer of 15c for a Laser card, but €7.75 for the new Visa debit cards -- a rise of more than 5,000pc.

This is the stuff as far as I'm concerned of downright immoral sharp practice and if we were thinking straight would leave the likes of PTSB and their VISA bedfellows commercially dead in the water.

However it appears that the Irish Banking sector is made of sterner,and far slitherier stuff as the manner by which they forced the switchover on customers was swift and all-encompassing,with little option for questioning or refusal.

What is doubly frustrating for ordinary bank customers,is to learn that,funnily enough,the Central Bank appears to have NO function in regulating these financial matters....

A spokeswoman for the Central Bank said banks were generally required to get its permission if they wanted to hike fees, but not in this case.

The Irish Payments Services Organisation, which runs the Laser scheme, said it would be taking up the new charging structure with the Central Bank.

Well,Well....now there's a surprise...:(

So we now see the Irish Banking system handing over it's customers debit account functionality to this "corporation"..

http://www.elavon.com/about/index.aspx

Quite a large,and no doubt HIGHLY profitable company by all accounts.....

For my own part I was quite happy to continue using the LASER product,as I felt it fitted MY demands well.

http://www.lasercard.ie/inside.asp?id=21

I have considerable difficulty with PTSB or any Banking Institution attempting to steamroller a new system into place when it is almost certain to substantially INCREASE to cost to me of any items purchased through it.

Looking through the LASER website I note the Involvement of Elavon in the overall sector,through a Tie-in with Bank of Ireland....now there's a good place to start thread pulling I'd reckon....:cool:

At some point there surely has to be a whipping-in of the Irish Banking Systems operations,particularly in it's dealings with Personal Account holders.....

One wonders if it's time for An Post or the Credit Unions to get more active amongst the great unwashed...?

ei.sdraob

@OP i do not think its a conspiracy or a scam

more of a case of people not being able to use their cards for online transactions leading to hassle for the banks

keithclancy

Well if anything this scrapping of laser cards is a result of Customer feedback, people wanted Mastercard Debit and Visa Debit to be able to buy stuff online and cheapo flights with Ryanair.

The price the merchant pays doesnt have anything to do with PTSB

ei.sdraob

Visa debit now offer cashback too and they changed their fee structure to fixed amount not % from what I heard

seems like a case of Laser being out competed

eitherway cash is your friend

El Soarab

Cash is king really. I have a laser card but very rarely use it. Don't know what killed it really, must be operating very inefficiently if its more worthwhile to bring in a pair of huge multinationals to handle simple debit card payments for us

AlekSmart

El Soarab wrote: »

Cash is king really. I have a laser card but very rarely use it. Don't know what killed it really, must be operating very inefficiently if its more worthwhile to bring in a pair of huge multinationals to handle simple debit card payments for us

This is something which one is hearing more and more as this slow-motion implosion continues.

I'm not a Financialist,but as a long time Laser user I never encountered any difficulties apart from the E-Bay phenomenon,which I overcame through Paypal.

However as Ei Sorab sez,innefficiency in some format may well have done for Laser....but I reckon the 15c flat fee was'nt enough to sustain the need for a buck to be turned.

Quite surprising though to see the relative sanguinity which some Debit Card users display to the new!,Improved!! percentage based charging regime....

myrak

El Soarab wrote: »

Cash is king really. I have a laser card but very rarely use it. Don't know what killed it really, must be operating very inefficiently if its more worthwhile to bring in a pair of huge multinationals to handle simple debit card payments for us

My pay, post taxes/charges/ goes direct to my bank account. Then the banks ( which I will be paying for till the day I die) step in and take their own version of taxes/charges. Then I get access to what is left of my dosh. Now they have decided to end Laser which is quite cheap and to replace it with more expensive, to me and the retailer,Visa.
And for why?
To further skin the sitting ducks....small business and the little people?
So how do I go about getting a pay packet as of old?
No bank account - no pay???

a5y

myrak wrote: »

My pay, post taxes/charges/ goes direct to my bank account. Then the banks ( which I will be paying for till the day I die) step in and take their own version of taxes/charges. Then I get access to what is left of my dosh. Now they have decided to end Laser which is quite cheap and to replace it with more expensive, to me and the retailer,Visa.
And for why?
To further skin the sitting ducks....small business and the little people?
So how do I go about getting a pay packet as of old?
No bank account - no pay???

What about credit unions and post offices?

(I'm asking, not arguing. I really don't know if they can substitute for banks)

ei.sdraob

myrak wrote: »

My pay, post taxes/charges/ goes direct to my bank account. Then the banks ( which I will be paying for till the day I die) step in and take their own version of taxes/charges. Then I get access to what is left of my dosh. Now they have decided to end Laser which is quite cheap and to replace it with more expensive, to me and the retailer,Visa.
And for why?
To further skin the sitting ducks....small business and the little people?
So how do I go about getting a pay packet as of old?
No bank account - no pay???

The black economy continues to grow with unemployment and new government taxes driving people away, cash for some people is king...

Laser in this case really let the game go, instead of competing and making use of their connections they are letting themselves be walked over

CiaranC

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm not a Financialist,but as a long time Laser user I never encountered any difficulties apart from the E-Bay phenomenon,which I overcame through Paypal.

You cant fund Paypal with Laser.

A debit card that you cannot use online and has limited use abroad is useless in 2011.

Quite surprising though to see the relative sanguinity which some Debit Card users display to the new!,Improved!! percentage based charging regime....

One of the reasons I changed to Ulsterbank is to get a proper debit card.

AlekSmart

Theres quite a comprehensive Wiki entry for the LaserCard scheme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_%28debit_card%29

Some elements caught my eye...

Laser Card is a debit card scheme in Ireland. The Laser Scheme is maintained and operated by Laser Card Services Ltd., a not-for-profit body owned by the seven leading financial institutions in Ireland and overseen since 2008 by the Oversight Unit (:D) of the Central Bank. The scheme was launched in 1996 and in 2010 there were almost 3 million Laser Cards in circulation. 195 million transactions worth almost €11.2 billion were carried out on those cards in 2009. From 2007, the financial institutions which had issued Laser Cards began to replace them with Visa or Mastercard Debit Cards.

Also....

It was reported that Banks were turning away from Laser because of some difficulties encountered by consumers in making online purchases. However, customers began to complain almost immediately about numerous difficulties caused by the premature withdrawal of Laser cards. Some retailers who were able to give cashback on Laser Cards were unwilling or unable to do so on the replacement cards; permanent tsb issued a second replacement Visa Debit Card to its customers in April 2011 due to the initial replacement chip and some older terminals not being compatible (i.e. refusing Cashback). Other retailers who had been charged a small flat-rate per-transaction fee for Laser transactions found that they were charged a percentage of the value of the transaction for the replacement cards. Organisations such as Betfair which did not charge customers for Laser Card deposits began to charge these customers 1.5% commission on deposits using the replacement Visa Debit Cards. Merchant Services companies do not advertise whether there are any differences in their charges for the two types of debit card. Some customers reported being charged foreign usage fees on Visa debit cards in Northern Ireland, which had not been charged on the old cards.

The "Foreign Usage" fee is another which rankles with me personally,as for groups of smaller transactions it can quickly mount up.
I believe it is basically counter to the principle of the European Central Currency and amounts to little more than sharp-practice by the banking establishment.

I recall hearing a programme about Visa Debit retreating from their position on Northern Ireland transactions however ?

MadsL

I was delighted when I heard this news; Laser is a pig in the UK. I have used Laser in Bosnia, Croatia, Czech Rep, Hungary, Italy, Austria, Germany, Holland etc. In the UK it is like a 50:50 gamble if it will work. I have never had a good explaination (try ringing 'Laser') except software on UK terminals. I once had the lunacy of Irish Ferries not accepting Laser at Holyhead to pay for a ticket.

However, moving to % based transactions frankly sucks.

In the UK debit cards (an integrated EFTPOS system) are an established part of the retail market and are widely accepted both by bricks and mortar stores and by internet stores. The term EFTPOS is not widely used by the public; debit card is the generic term used. Cards commonly in circulation include Maestro (previously Switch), Debit MasterCard, Visa Debit (previously Visa Delta) and Visa Electron. Banks do not charge customers for EFTPOS transactions in the UK, but some retailers make small charges, particularly where the transaction amount in question is small. The UK has converted all debit cards in circulation to Chip and PIN (except for Chip and Signature cards issued to people with certain disabilities), based on the EMV standard, to increase transaction security; however, PINs are not required for internet transactions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debit_card#Online_Debit_System

myrak

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@OP i do not think its a conspiracy or a scam

more of a case of people not being able to use their cards for online transactions leading to hassle for the banks

I use my laser for day to day expenditure and to pay utility bills online. I use my Visa occasionally and only when necessary. It means I don't need to carry cash and can budget better. A debit card is not a credit card so there is neither the temptation nor the ability to get into debt...no money towards the end of the month = no spend.

I guess those of us who are just about managing to keep afloat may have a different view of this hassle reducer, than those for whom ever increasing charges are still affordable.

markpb

IIRC Laser is being wound down because of an EU directive that mandates payment cards which work all over Europe. Laser only half managed this by putting a Mastercard app on the chip but it can only be issued by Irish banks. IPSO knew the deadline was coming up, tried to figure how how to make it compliant and said it wasn't worth the hassle so they've basically been waiting to die for a few years now. The same will happen to all the other National cards too.

thebman

Glad to be rid of it. I bloody hated the laser cards. Hate the logo, hated looking at it, hated the hassle of having a credit card just to buy crap online.

Not everywhere supports paypal online and most online stores won't support laser.

I think it is a victory of common sense. I think we should also make fees and charges illegal on debit cards to encourage it to avoid the need to carry cash.

dissed doc

myrak wrote: »

My pay, post taxes/charges/ goes direct to my bank account. Then the banks ( which I will be paying for till the day I die) step in and take their own version of taxes/charges. Then I get access to what is left of my dosh. Now they have decided to end Laser which is quite cheap and to replace it with more expensive, to me and the retailer,Visa.
And for why?
To further skin the sitting ducks....small business and the little people?
So how do I go about getting a pay packet as of old?
No bank account - no pay???

The only reason is increased revenue from the % cut of the sale.

In Netherlands, people use Chipknip which is like a pinless cash wallet on your ATM card. You load it up to €500, costs nothing extra. You use Chip&Pin for the Laser equivalent. Again, no extras (they will balk if you try and use anything with Visa or Mastercard on it, credit or debit cards). Finally, you also have Maestro when using the card e.g., abroad. So three types of transaction possible on one card, none of which include Visa or MC.

Therefore, in Ireland we need to get rid of anything remotely cost-beneficial for the consumer ASAP. There are a huge amount of alternatives; Irish banking is just copying the UK.

FreudianSlippers

Laser was outdated when they released it in all honesty and it is of no use outside of Ireland. I switched banks because they had no plans on introducing VISA debit, a much better system.

myrak

dissed doc wrote: »

The only reason is increased revenue from the % cut of the sale.

In Netherlands, people use Chipknip which is like a pinless cash wallet on your ATM card. You load it up to €500, costs nothing extra. You use Chip&Pin for the Laser equivalent. Again, no extras (they will balk if you try and use anything with Visa or Mastercard on it, credit or debit cards). Finally, you also have Maestro when using the card e.g., abroad. So three types of transaction possible on one card, none of which include Visa or MC.

Therefore, in Ireland we need to get rid of anything remotely cost-beneficial for the consumer ASAP. There are a huge amount of alternatives; Irish banking is just copying the UK.

Don't know how many employers pay cash these days but find it remarkable that employees whose money goes direct to the bank are so blase about ever increasing nibbles from their already taxed income. Does the financial ombudsperson have any power in such matters.

AlekSmart

myrak wrote: »

Don't know how many employers pay cash these days but find it remarkable that employees whose money goes direct to the bank are so blase about ever increasing nibbles from their already taxed income. Does the financial ombudsperson have any power in such matters.

A very good point Myrak.

It would appear that the Irish definition of a "Regulator" differs substantially from the rest of the World's in that a "Regulatoír" as Gaeilge,has absolutely no power whatever over anything,particularly the field which it supposedly regulates.

This is a particularly important point when "Ordinary" people stand to lose as opposed to VIP's when some methodology often miraculously appears in a puff-of-pink-smoke (A Lá NAMA for example)
Having my wages paid by EFT to a bank account is a condition of my employment,which I reluctantly accepted.

My arguement against compulsory EFT is mainly in being liable for the Bank Charges associated with opening and maintaining a Bank Account which I might not ordinarily have.

I would suggest that the Irish Banking system is gaining quite enough thank-you from the Contributing Classes without another layer of skimming off-the-top.

As DissedDoc posts....

In Netherlands, people use Chipknip which is like a pinless cash wallet on your ATM card. You load it up to €500, costs nothing extra. You use Chip&Pin for the Laser equivalent. Again, no extras (they will balk if you try and use anything with Visa or Mastercard on it, credit or debit cards). Finally, you also have Maestro when using the card e.g., abroad. So three types of transaction possible on one card, none of which include Visa or MC.

Part of our problem as a country seems to be that even full membership of the European Union failed to break our strong affinity for stuff a Lá the UK......?