So what annoys you that could be cut??

TheDriver

A debate for those of us in the teaching profession: What annoys the crap out of you in the system that is of little use or lots of use but costs an absolute fortune??
Is there anything you think could be cut??

To start the ball rolling, so many memos and postage could be cut out and converted to email. It is a bit at the moment but could be a lot more.
Secondly, extent the NPS contracts for much more in schools and the whole country, save us a fortune as it is.

whiteandlight

Garda Vetting repetition. I've been garda vetted, once to get on the DIP, once to get membership of the Teaching Council but apparently TC vetting is not enough for my VEC so I have to be vetted again? I mean seriously, whats the point of the TC if the VEC doesn't even accept their word?

Bally8

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Garda Vetting repetition. I've been garda vetted, once to get on the DIP, once to get membership of the Teaching Council but apparently TC vetting is not enough for my VEC so I have to be vetted again? I mean seriously, whats the point of the TC if the VEC doesn't even accept their word?

And GAISCE dont accept recent VEC Garda Vetting so it has to be done again for me to be a PAL!

E.T.

This is more a long-term thing, but the amount of SEN resources that have been cut are going to cost a fortune long-term. Short-term, thousands can be spent by the HSE on a report for a child that states they NEED a full-time SNA, and a SENO, with no extra qualifications can over-rule this, meaning all of the money has been thrown down the drain.

doc_17

VEC Interview panels could be reviewed....I know it's the scheme that appoint you and you can be transferred within it but I always felt it's unfair that Principals don't get to interview staf for their own school.

No need for 3 on a panel....just the principal and one other. Wouldn't save a pile but it annoys me.

doc_17

Actually VEC head offices could nearly be done away with.....all they seem to do from year to year is make it more awkward for us. Just keep the Building Services Dept and maybe payroll.

Chilli Con Kearney

How about the department? Payroll for example. When you call them, you are asked for your county - one deals with each I think (several for Dublin). This should be streamlined and any worker should be able to deal with any county. Less would be needed.

In addition, they should take calls in the morning. They still don't on some days (not a money-saving issue, I know).

TheDriver

I think the whole taxi for students need reviewing, in that 3 students can live next door to each other but they all get seperate state paid taxis. Of course that money probably comes from Dept of transport!

P.S. I like the good ideas here!

jonseyblub

The whole idea of central purchasing needs to be looked at. The amount of science equipment bought every year must be serious and the discounts that could be got would be phenomenal. And that's just one subject. Every practical subject would be the same. It would save millions.

Delphi91

jonseyblub wrote: »

The whole idea of central purchasing needs to be looked at. The amount of science equipment bought every year must be serious and the discounts that could be got would be phenomenal. And that's just one subject. Every practical subject would be the same. It would save millions.

While I agree that there may be savings to be made by purchasing centrally in bulk, from my experience this is not always good.

Having been involved in the outfitting of a recently built school where the purchase of science equipment/chemicals, etc was put out to tender, the cheapest tender is definitely not always the best in terms of quality. Ask any science teacher who has ordered stuff from the Irish companies and they will tell you the same thing. Unfortunately one company seems to continually provide the cheapest quotes and they get the business. But if I had my way, I wouldn't touch their stuff with a barge pole.

Dionysus

doc_17 wrote: »

Actually VEC head offices could nearly be done away with.....all they seem to do from year to year is make it more awkward for us. Just keep the Building Services Dept and maybe payroll.

And is there any rational reason why all the VECs cannot use a single website for advertising their jobs? That's a perfect example of the little power games they are going on with.

rainbowtrout

jonseyblub wrote: »

The whole idea of central purchasing needs to be looked at. The amount of science equipment bought every year must be serious and the discounts that could be got would be phenomenal. And that's just one subject. Every practical subject would be the same. It would save millions.

Think my VEC (Roscommon) are doing that this year but if you want to buy a box of biros you have to go through them even though it could be cheaper to go to the local pound shop where the school have an account. Total pain.

Dionysus wrote: »

And is there any rational reason why all the VECs cannot use a single website for advertising their jobs? That's a perfect example of the little power games they are going on with.

There is the website vecjobs.ie but Cavan and Meath seem to be the only counties that use it.


I'd do away with ridiculous numbers of interviews for similar positions. A teacher I know was interviewed three times by Roscommon VEC within a week recently. Two of the interviews were for posts in the exact same subject. No doubt plenty of expenses were picked up for all those separate interview panels. Particularly as the same people were conducting all the interviews and many of the same candidates were interviewed for each of the posts.

While it would probably prove unpopular with teachers, a fortune could probably be saved on expenses for exam related stuff (orals, practical exams, corrections) by paying people for their actual expenses which would have to be vouched rather than a flat fee.

lily09

Am coming at this from a primary point of view but have a couple of ideas.

1. Food Dudes, Incredible Edibles, Green Schools etc all programs which cost huge amounts with imo little educational value as teachers are teaching the content anyway.
2. Teachers centres; sending out glossy literature that could easily be emailed. Also I think one per province would be enough.
3.Quangos sending very expensive knickknacks-eg seatbelt sheriff badges that i usually stand on at the end of the day or dvds about autism that could easily be accessed online.
3 Printed Payslips-would it be legal to have them accessed online and they could be printed/requested when needed.
4. Get rid of inspectors (wishful thinking:))

I think because I work in a small school I see the amount of crap that comes in the post every day and it infuriates me. There are so many ways to save money without compromising childrens access to learning.

looksee

A small thing that makes me mad is when someone copies a page from a book and it leaves a big black band round the edge of the page. They then go on copying and produce a stack of pages with the black edge.

That black is Toner All you have to do is fold back the black parts then put the copy on the glass and make your copies, no black, no wasted toner.

gaeilgebeo

looksee wrote: »

A small thing that makes me mad is when someone copies a page from a book and it leaves a big black band round the edge of the page. They then go on copying and produce a stack of pages with the black edge.

That black is Toner All you have to do is fold back the black parts then put the copy on the glass and make your copies, no black, no wasted toner.

This ^^^^.
Drives me INSANE! Especially when a teacher is making 30 black rimmed copies of the same sheet. The height of ignorance and laziness. :mad::mad::mad:

TheDriver

or teachers making 35 copies because they never counted the 32 people in their class.

rainbowtrout

TheDriver wrote: »

or teachers making 35 copies because they never counted the 32 people in their class.

Or teachers making 35 copies and then deciding they don't need the page/it was the wrong one in the first place and dumping the lot

whiteandlight

TheDriver wrote: »

or teachers making 35 copies because they never counted the 32 people in their class.

Well I must admit that I usually do 1/2 spare but thats because you are almost guaranteed that at least 1 out of your 32 will have "lost" their page the next day!
I agree on the toner-what an utter waste

E.T.

Maybe publishing companies should be put under a bit of pressure to provide at least some of the extras (posters, DVDs etc) free instead of schools having to pay for them. If we're putting their books on our booklist, they're already making a big profit from this and the teacher's manual is usually all we get, if there even is one.

TheDriver

thought the accompaning stuff was always free, i always got the CD etc. What kind of books are you talking about?

E.T.

A lot of the kids' workbooks (Primary) have poster sets, different bits and pieces like that. We've definitely paid for them before.

doc_17

Dionysus wrote: »

And is there any rational reason why all the VECs cannot use a single website for advertising their jobs? That's a perfect example of the little power games they are going on with.

Well I did also say that the principals themselves should be hiring for their own schools and that this should be part of their job. So no interviews at all.

We coould go down the route of a one stop shop and it would save some cash

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

Well I did also say that the principals themselves should be hiring for their own schools and that this should be part of their job. So no interviews at all.

We coould go down the route of a one stop shop and it would save some cash

If it was left up to the principal there could be even more nepotism than there currently is.

gaeilgegrinds1

No I really think a few pairs of eyes are better than one for spotting what a person is really like. You need people with different backgrounds and from different disciplines to decide who gets a job.

doc_17

I just dislike the idea that the Principal has no choice on the teachers selected for them. I'd rather they had an input themselves i.e. as maybe part of the panel of interviewers.

mick kk

So theres 5 computers hooked up to one printer. Someone decides they need one page of the 100 page document they are reading. They press print, take the page they want and walk away while 99 other pages are printed full of colour.....or there is a problem with printer...so they press print 5 times before giving up ad walking away not even putting a sign on printer that theres a problem....then someone else walks in and fixes the printer...the document starts to print but you don't know which computer to go to to cancel the printing.....or the printer is out of ink....god, whatever you do dont get an ink cartridge from office, god no...walk away and wait for someone else to do it ....

looksee

mick kk wrote: »

So theres 5 computers hooked up to one printer. Someone decides they need one page of the 100 page document they are reading. They press print, take the page they want and walk away while 99 other pages are printed full of colour.....or there is a problem with printer...so they press print 5 times before giving up ad walking away not even putting a sign on printer that theres a problem....then someone else walks in and fixes the printer...the document starts to print but you don't know which computer to go to to cancel the printing.....or the printer is out of ink....god, whatever you do dont get an ink cartridge from office, god no...walk away and wait for someone else to do it ....

Or get half way through photocopying and a page jams. CLEAR THE JAM, or go and get someone who can do it. Its not that difficult, read the instructions. But also be aware that when the next person clears the jam, all your remaining stuff churns out and we can at least see which department was responsible

RealJohn

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

No I really think a few pairs of eyes are better than one for spotting what a person is really like. You need people with different backgrounds and from different disciplines to decide who gets a job.

I'm inclined to agree. The principal (or deputy principal at least) should be on the panel though and probably should ultimately have the final decision. I don't think three on an interview panel is excessive but I'm sure we've all heard stories of people having 5 or 6 on the interview panel (though I've never met anyone who's actually experienced this). If this does happen, it should be done away with and 3 person panels made standard.

On the printing and photocopying issues, a lot of teachers just don't know how to do things properly. Obviously those of us posting here are at least a little computer savvy but I know plenty of teachers who would struggle to manage this so the idea of being able to print a specific page out of a 100 page document is often a bridge too far for them (believe it or not). There should probably be compulsory IT training (possibly as part of these extra hours we all have to do thanks to the Croke Park agreement) to cut out the excuses for this.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree. The principal (or deputy principal at least) should be on the panel though and probably should ultimately have the final decision. I don't think three on an interview panel is excessive but I'm sure we've all heard stories of people having 5 or 6 on the interview panel (though I've never met anyone who's actually experienced this). If this does happen, it should be done away with and 3 person panels made standard.

There were 7 on the panel for my first ever interview (Limerick VEC). :eek:
I was horrified. Didn't get the job either. It was horrible.

jonseyblub

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There were 7 on the panel for my first ever interview (Limerick VEC). :eek:
I was horrified. Didn't get the job either. It was horrible.

You will find with the VEC's there is normally some type of politician on the board getting expenses etc. I'm sorry but that's a joke. Cavan VEC and Kildare VEC both have/had local councillors on the boards asking the most ridiculous questions. You need to have educationalists who have at least 10 years of experience in the classroom interviewing you.

rainbowtrout

jonseyblub wrote: »

You will find with the VEC's there is normally some type of politician on the board getting expenses etc. I'm sorry but that's a joke. Cavan VEC and Kildare VEC both have/had local councillors on the boards asking the most ridiculous questions. You need to have educationalists who have at least 10 years of experience in the classroom interviewing you.

Ya the guy who interviewed me is now the local TD, was involved in politics back then too probably at county council level.. what does he know about teaching???? hmmmmmm.....

trihead

'A debate for those of us in the teaching profession: What annoys the crap out of you in the system that is of little use or lots of use but costs an absolute fortune??
Is there anything you think could be cut??'

= The teaching council!

couldn't resist:D

trihead

whiteandlight

trihead wrote: »

'A debate for those of us in the teaching profession: What annoys the crap out of you in the system that is of little use or lots of use but costs an absolute fortune??
Is there anything you think could be cut??'

= The teaching council!

couldn't resist:D

trihead

Actually the "aims" of the teaching council I agree with but if they can't implement anything then they are pretty redundant. For example they have been registering us for specific subjects, then we are hired to teach other subjects? What was the point! (I'm aware this is changing). And then as I mentioned earlier their Garda Vetting isn't accepted by the VEC. So essentially all they have done for me is give me is a piece of paper saying which subjects I'm qualified to teach which I have to pay them yearly for??

doc_17

Ahhhh the Teaching Council. Lord forgive them for they know not what they do!

Ok they're not that bad but €90 a year from every teacher in the country?

Abolishing the TC wouldn't save the country any money as we fund it ourselves.

spurious

doc_17 wrote: »

we fund it ourselves.

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

implausible

The ordering system in VECs. I have to order through the book scheme and one supplier. If I can find a dvd for example cheap on Amazon, the school won't pay for it, likewise with el cheapo Penguin classics - I bought a copy of The Great Gatsby the other day for €2.75 and I am certain that this is not the version that will arrive into my classroom in Sept:mad:

The taxi issue is crazy - they don't share and distance does not appear to be an issue. I also have an issue with the free copies etc that are made available to certain students who are often dropped to school in 2011 Transits.

mick kk

another thing that costs parents money is forcing them to buy exam papers for 7 quid when they are free on education.ie....it doesn't take rocket science to edit them into one document, email all the kids and let them print it out.....educate.ie are doin them for 2.50 [not sure if I am allowed to say that but it would save a lot of money for parents.]......also, making kids get hard back copies....why? pointless waste of money and they way a ton.

implausible

mick kk wrote: »

another thing that costs parents money is forcing them to buy exam papers for 7 quid when they are free on education.ie....it doesn't take rocket science to edit them into one document, email all the kids and let them print it out.....educate.ie are doin them for 2.50 [not sure if I am allowed to say that but it would save a lot of money for parents.]......also, making kids get hard back copies....why? pointless waste of money and they way a ton.

In our school, almost every teacher ordered the educate.ie ones and you cannot presume that every student has access to a printer. In fact, most students would print off in school, which wouldn't save any money!

The hardback copy is a way of making sure students keep all their notes in one place and the copy doesn't get wrecked. The alternative is a folder. I'm an English teacher and it suits me, but I doubt every subject/teacher requires these.

mick kk

am going to give that exam paper website a go this year {didn't know about it last year]. From talking to kids they absolutely hate getting hard back copies as bags are too heavy as it is. If every teacher tells them to have one, then you end up with needing a seperate schoolbag full of them!...we don;t have lockers so its a big problem for our kids.

doc_17

When/If we move to Ipads or the like then students will able to download exam papers onto these tablets for free....

rainbowtrout

mick kk wrote: »

am going to give that exam paper website a go this year {didn't know about it last year]. From talking to kids they absolutely hate getting hard back copies as bags are too heavy as it is. If every teacher tells them to have one, then you end up with needing a seperate schoolbag full of them!...we don;t have lockers so its a big problem for our kids.

Perhaps and I see your problem, but most schools do have lockers and in subjects like science where there is a requirement to hand up coursework in some sort of copy, hardback copies are hard wearing. They are less likely to fall apart, get torn and end up and the bottom of a student's bag covered in spilt coke and burst yoghurts. Even the scattiest of students that I've had for ag science over the years has managed to keep their hardback copy over the two year period to hand up for assessment.

I'm sure no teacher would have a problem with you printing off papers at home and binding them together if it saved you money. However many kids (and parents) are not that organised and if they don't have a set of papers bound and handed out to them they don't get them at all.

I know you mentioned one particular company. Our principal informed us that we had to use that company last year to keep the cost down for the students. Result was poor quality papers, CDs (for languages) that didn't work, and 2-3 month wait for stuff ordered the first week of September. Now that was just our experience but it was across the board in most subjects. I couldn't leave my students sitting there until Christmas without exam papers so I asked them for the extra euro needed to get them from another company and had them within 24 hours. Cheapest doesn't always mean the best quality and service.

gaeilgebeo

Another fan of hardbacks! My students keep their hardback from 1rst-3rd year. It is durable and they always can refer to it when doing any written work. They get a new one then for 5th-6th year.

As for the educate.ie exam papers, I was so glad I didn't go with them. As well as poor cd quality, they only had the 2010 paper and 4 sample papers. That is 5 years worth of papers as opposed to the 11 I got with a different company. My colleagues class has their papers finished by Christmas as there was so few of them! :eek:
I definitely won't be buying papers from them.
As for students printing them off? That's a whole other battleground!

jonseyblub

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

As for the educate.ie exam papers, I was so glad I didn't go with them. As well as poor cd quality, they only had the 2010 paper and 4 sample papers. That is 5 years worth of papers as opposed to the 11 I got with a different company. My colleagues class has their papers finished by Christmas as there was so few of them! :eek:
I definitely won't be buying papers from them.
As for students printing them off? That's a whole other battleground!

I suppose it depends on the subject. I got them for LC Maths and it had papers going back as far as 1996 and the quality was perfect. The cheapest other option was about €7 so it was a great saving. I ordered mine in September and got them within a couple of days. A lot of our staff bought them and didn't seem to have a problem with them. Could be a languages thing though.

Just looking at their website they have an option to download the Aural exams too which is handy for kids who want to put them on mp3 players

gaeilgegrinds1

I print the papers out for the students at the local printers and get them bound. Worked out at two something last year. We got 80 for LC and over a hundred for JC. It took me a lot of my own time collecting money etc though.
As for hardbacks, do schools really not have lockers? Many of my students leave them in the classroom if not needed for studying.

byhookorbycrook

rainwater harvesters could help,likewise shared maintenance staff between small schools

whiteandlight

I'm gonna bump this with a vec reference. Just moved from a secondarys school to a vex. Why in this day and age am I expected to fill in up to six different possible substitution forms on a weekly basis?? This is an insane waste of paper and time. I have to spend time immaculately filling n the form and manually adding up the time covered. The school secretary has to go through each and every one to ensure no mistakes, so does the vice principal and then it finally goes off to the VEC where they'll have to check all the data again! Why hasn't this been computerised? Its an administrative nightmare which has to be costing far more than a computer entry system which is already in place in secondary schools. Its completely bonkers

spurious

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I'm gonna bump this with a vec reference. Just moved from a secondarys school to a vex. Why in this day and age am I expected to fill in up to six different possible substitution forms on a weekly basis?? This is an insane waste of paper and time. I have to spend time immaculately filling n the form and manually adding up the time covered. The school secretary has to go through each and every one to ensure no mistakes, so does the vice principal and then it finally goes off to the VEC where they'll have to check all the data again! Why hasn't this been computerised? Its an administrative nightmare which has to be costing far more than a computer entry system which is already in place in secondary schools. Its completely bonkers

Are you not on any sort of a contract with regular hours?
The only people I see in our place still doing the forms are those who do deputy classes on spec daily.

implausible

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I'm gonna bump this with a vec reference. Just moved from a secondarys school to a vex. Why in this day and age am I expected to fill in up to six different possible substitution forms on a weekly basis?? This is an insane waste of paper and time. I have to spend time immaculately filling n the form and manually adding up the time covered. The school secretary has to go through each and every one to ensure no mistakes, so does the vice principal and then it finally goes off to the VEC where they'll have to check all the data again! Why hasn't this been computerised? Its an administrative nightmare which has to be costing far more than a computer entry system which is already in place in secondary schools. Its completely bonkers

My vice-principal has set up a pilot system for this and the s/s scheme, which he hopes will be rolled out next year. Why hasn't it been done before? Nobody's job I suppose. VEC admin staff are very good at sticking to their remits.

The secondary school ones are sent directly to the Dept, who obviously have a system for this. In VECs, the Dept sub-contracts this work to the VEC - crazy I know.

Another thing that annoys me - 2 years ago our VEC sent out fancy hard folders to every teacher in the VEC, containing glossy information about the VEC and on leave entitlements etc.......all information that could be got from the website - I dread to think how much it cost:eek:

whiteandlight

spurious wrote: »

Are you not on any sort of a contract with regular hours?
The only people I see in our place still doing the forms are those who do deputy classes on spec daily.

I'm on 16hrs but my rpt official interview is not until October so in the meantime I have to fill in those 16 hrs plus any additional ones that need to be written up.

I honestly do not understand why the VEC pay secondary teaching staff when the department have a perfectly good system for it? Surely the money is coming from the dept anyways? And the schools are subject to the same pay arrangements and teaching ratios are the same as secondary schools etc