The Big Prop Debate

wixfjord

Just spotted on another thread that Horan is gone to play with Munster in La Rochelle, but I think this deserves another thread, because it's so crucial to our WC hopes! (Hopefully the mods don't disagree!)

Now, I think most of us would agree that our #1 LH and TH should be Healy and Ross, but the next 2 or perhaps unlikely 3 who go could be as crucial, depending on injury or fatigue.
If for example we lose to Aus, and Ross gets hurt, whomever plays TH against Italy could literally decide how far we go in the WC.

My own thoughts on Buckley are well flagged at this stage, while I personally also don't rate Court at all, and I think our scrum goes to pot with him on, other than the fact he can play both sides.

I know a lot of guys on here think that it's ridiculous to bring back Hayes and Horan for one last crack. Two guys who realistically should be at home with their slippers on, or throwing sheep around and pulling calves in Hayes' case.

However, it's about the here and now for me, and as I mentioned on another thread, if we were to meet a good scrummaging team like France, Arg, or SA, or even NZ, and Healy or Ross got injured while we were 3 up with 10 mins to go, I know I'd rather be bringing on the experience of Hayes or Horan, rather than Court or Buckley.

Both Hayes and Horan showed up well in the ML final, albeit against an AIL hooker and tired scrum with Strauss in the backrow, but Horan also had a good end of season, and we all know Hayes has the power to hold a scrum generally. Their lack of versatility may hurt them, and it may be a very unpopular choice, but does anyone think there's something to be said for bringing these guys on one last hurrah? It's a matter of opinion, but I'd personally trust the nous of Hayes over the carrying ability of Buckley, and again the nous of Horan over Courts scrummaging.

Am I barking mad, and should The Bull and his comrade be put out to pasture's new?

Meltdown in 3..2..

CatFromHue

When I think back over Courts international season I think of the Samoa game were the scrums went poorly. Hayes got all the blame here when he was at fault for the vast minority of penalties. Then I think of when Court came on against the English. We'd be on top in the scrum for a while and looked comfortable. At his first scrum we were pushed back and we looked uncomfortable from then on.

He does work hard in defence and looks to carry the ball but I do worry about his scrummaging. So I think the jury is still out. We'll learn a lot more this weekend about our props and team in general.

I wouldn't be against a Hayes come back to be honest.

Regarding Horan going back to Munster, they have a game against La Rochelle on Friday night. Kidney has said that he would let guys go back to the provinces to get game time, so this doesn't mean their out of the squad for good. A good showing on Friday and they could be right back in the mix.

irishbucsfan

Court's poor performances in the scrum tend to coincide with the presence of Cronin as well. Neither are particularly good, but beside a decent scrummager he is serviceable, and offers more than anyone else (apart form Healy of course).

He's versatile, he's a decent scrummager, he is very good around the park. He'll be on the plane to NZ and deservedly so.

As for TH I'm really not sure. Hayes, Buckley whoever, if Ross is absent I'd be equally concerned with any of them there. Hayes at least has the ML performance and has bags of experience and is well liked in the camp. I'd bring him for that.

theboss80

I am in agreement with you on Hayes , not so much on Horan. I honestly think Hayes is a banker to be on the plane.

MungBean

I'd take Buckley and Court. Against Aussies or Boks any replacement of Healy or Ross gets slaughtered. Court and Buckley will do well against Russia, USA and might be ok coming on at the end of the Italy match. We dont need the Bull any more, let him go free.

durkadurka

Court is ambipropsterous though and that is invaluable in a squad of 30 and a matchday squad of 22 not 23.

Quint2010

Its an area where we have aboslutely no strength in depth. I was watching our game in 09 with Australia today with Healy, Flannery Hayes and and we were absolutely crushed. I think even with Ross at TH we will struggle against them and Italy. With regards to the other props I would bring Court and Buckley. I think Hayes is past it and Horan just hasnt played enough. Buckley played well on saturday I thought. I would start Hayes on saturday just to see but its a big ask against the french

totallegend

If neither Hayes nor Buckley can scrummage, then surely the logical option is to bring Buckley who might at least cause some damage in the loose.

Personally, I don't see the benefit of bringing a fifth prop either so:
Healy, Ross, Court, Buckley

roycon

durkadurka wrote: »

Court is ambipropsterous though and that is invaluable in a squad of 30 and a matchday squad of 22 not 23.

get this magical new word up on urban dictionary right away. brilliant

Podge_irl

Court is a definite traveller. He may occasionally struggle in the scrum but he's better then Buckley at LH (by a lot) and Horan doesn't cover TH.

The last (and I assume there will only be four, complete waste to bring five when the reserves are all a bit meh) will be between Hayes and Buckley. Think Buckley is more worth the punt as a player at least capable of possibly doing something impressive.

durkadurka

roycon wrote: »

get this magical new word up on urban dictionary right away. brilliant

Read it on a blog somewhere so I can't take credit, it's perfectly cromulent.

Robbo

Whatever happened to the oft floated plan of getting a load of Georgians over here on scholarships and embiggening them to create some kind of unholy army of the front row? And if it doesn't work out, Lubchenko can always fall back on his major in communications.

Monty Burnz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Court's poor performances in the scrum tend to coincide with the presence of Cronin as well.

Cronin: another one of those specialist players we have who isn't any good at his specialisms. I don't rate him at all, unfortunately, and my heart always sinks a bit when I see him or Court limbering up to come on.

Quint2010

durkadurka wrote: »

Read it on a blog somewhere so I can't take credit, it's perfectly cromulent.

You are just showing off now..:D

durkadurka

Robbo wrote: »

Whatever happened to the oft floated plan of getting a load of Georgians over here on scholarships and embiggening them to create some kind of unholy army of the front row? And if it doesn't work out, Lubchenko can always fall back on his major in communications.

I think this may introubulate us somehow with getting work permits for them.



Anyhow, it seems to me that Court is also an absolute certainty along with Ross and Healy, so we're only talking about Buckley vs Hayes, assuming 4 props.

boredatwork82

Robbo wrote: »

Whatever happened to the oft floated plan of getting a load of Georgians over here on scholarships and embiggening them to create some kind of unholy army of the front row? And if it doesn't work out, Lubchenko can always fall back on his major in communications.

We have one Just not quite ready yet!

*edit meant to paste this in
Read the Marist summary.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/schools-rugby/tony-wards-guide-to-connacht-2500049.html

Gracelessly Tom

boredatwork82 wrote: »

We have one Just not quite ready yet!

Who? Can't think of anyone but it's still early so brain hasn't fully woken up.

Corbetto

Across the threads recently ive seen alot of people bashing Hayes about his and he shouldnt be near the squad etc. Yes he is a shadow of his former self but thats to be expected at 37....

But who else have we got?? Thats the sad part court is versatile but he was destroyed against the Scots in the scrum albeit alongside cronin and mushy but hey he even made Buckley look like he could scrummage!!! So he can cover both sides and maybe coming on late against a tired scrum almost hold his own, Buckley cant scrummage and looked uninterested and lazy against scotland and with ball in hand didnt make much ground.

Hayes will if brought on fresh in the last quarter hold his own and offer the experience of 100+ caps and our lineout improves with him on the pitch working with POC.

I dont really see what buckley offers that Hayes doesnt except for extra weight and size. Even marcus horan can hold his own in the scrum if little else

footie_fanatic

i would agree with you, Healy and Ross are the only option there, its more out of loyalty the others would get playing,

GerM

We will only have 22 man squads in the WC. Hayes or Buckley won't be involved at all in the Australia/Italy games unless there is an injury. Even if it isn't very convincing, Court can cover both sides and therefore is the man who gets the 17 jersey regardless of how he compares. Buckley/Hayes will travel only as cover or to give Ross a break and line out against Russia/USA. Hayes will travel I think due to a combination of loyalty and being part of a very slick line out unit. Both Buckley or Hayes should be fine against Russia or the USA. Neither will be fine against Italy or Australia in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hayes get a chance this weekend to shed some light on the selection. Ross will need to be wrapped in cotton wool; he's indispensable at this point.

irishbucsfan

I'd like to see Court start beside Best before writing off his scrummaging, though. Or Flannery, but we don't know where Flannery stands right now as a scummager.

So in the next 2 games I'd love to see combinations involving Court/Best as well as Healy/Flannery so we can tell where they stand individually.

Hagan or Hayes for me.

Since they'll only get gametime vs the minnows unless we're up **** creek, I don't mind which of them it is.

pappyodaniel

durkadurka wrote: »

Court is ambipropsterous though and that is invaluable in a squad of 30 and a matchday squad of 22 not 23.

Just because he plays 1 and 3 doesn't mean he's able to play 1 and 3. He can't scrummage for jack but we are so weak in the front row. I'd definately take Buckley, he's not as bad a scrummager as people make him out to be, it's his attitude that pisses people off.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Is Hagan injured or, just not in the squad? AFAIK he covers both sides and he should have been given the chance to overtake Court.

As is, I feel that we have to bring 5props. Healy and Ross should be rested for the games against the minnows, and Court should start every game from the bench.

cython

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Is Hagan injured or, just not in the squad? AFAIK he covers both sides and he should have been given the chance to overtake Court.

From any articles I can find about the training squad, it looks as if Hagan just isn't in it. Brett Wilkinson seems to have been the only prop outside the usual suspects to be included in the announcement.

jk86

Hagen is training with Leinster

http://www.sportsfile.com/id/544220/

RAWR

GerM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Is Hagan injured or, just not in the squad? AFAIK he covers both sides and he should have been given the chance to overtake Court.

He could, once upon a time but once he went to Connacht I don't think he ever played loosehead so I wouldn't consider him ambipropsterous (yes, the word is catching on) at this stage. He played loosehead at underage a little and Leinster A. Shame because there is such a lack of versatility in Irish props. Every top country seems to have at least one player that can play well on both sides of the scrum. We seem happier to find the side they're more suited to and make them focus solely on that side. I fear Jack McGrath will be the same also after spending an entire season of Leinster A at tighthead.

Podge_irl

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

As is, I feel that we have to bring 5props. Healy and Ross should be rested for the games against the minnows, and Court should start every game from the bench.

Bringing 5 props is an utter and complete waste of a squad place. Court and Buckley/Hayes can start the minnow games with Healy on the bench.

twinytwo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bringing 5 props is an utter and complete waste of a squad place. Court and Buckley/Hayes can start the minnow games with Healy on the bench.

Then all we have to do is hope* neither healy or ross get injured:(



* by hope i mean get down on bended knee and pray, to the heavens

ionadnapóca

totallegend wrote: »

If neither Hayes nor Buckley can scrummage, then surely the logical option is to bring Buckley who might at least cause some damage in the loose.

Personally, I don't see the benefit of bringing a fifth prop either so:
Healy, Ross, Court, Buckley

I'd go with Buckley for the same reason. But i think he will need to bring another tighthead so that he can rest/prevent injury to Ross.
3.Ross:
v US(h-t) 17.Court
v Aus 17.Court
v Russ 3.Buckley 17.Hayes
v Ita 17.Court
v Wal/Samoa 17.Court (If we got Samoa we could actually get away with Buckley @3)
v Eng/Fra 17.Court
v NZ 17.Court

World Champions.
Easy!

buck65

Our front row is going to get eaten alive out there, luckily apart from a scrum Italy are crap, Australia will beat us well we will qualify but any of the following will beat us in a knockout - NZ, Aus, France, England, SA would too but not by much. Kidney has neglected the development of the front row and boy is it going to bite us in the ass.
Court, Horan, Buckley, Hayes - no other top 6 country in the world would be considering these guys unless the 5 or 6 props ahead of them were injured. That Ireland haven't developed young props to come in to replace Healy and Ross is a massive oversight.
Hayes had a massive end of season as did Horan (and fantastic careers) but really neither are first choice even for their club teams anymore. Court is just about good enough fo Ulster (just) and Buckley we all know is a wrecking ball but easily turned inside out at scrum time and is probably mentally flaky too.
Any team that decides to turn the screw on us will kick us off the park, Scotland did it last year and nearly this year and they are godawful. Remember a woeful Welsh team beat us too this year, we are crap away from home against the big teams.
Such a pity because we have a fine second and backrow, a hardworking midfield who still show the flashes of brilliance and a decent if unpredictable back 3.

Hagz

buck65 wrote: »

That Ireland haven't developed young props to come in to replace Healy and Ross is a massive oversight.

Unfortunatly they are all just 2 or 3 years too young. Prop is probably the position we have most depth in, in terms of young players. Leinster alone can't stop producing them.

grohlisagod

Here's my 2 cents. Court is an absolute certainty to go. I don't believe he's ambipropsterous (I like that word). I think he's a loose-head who happens to be able to play tight-head better than our other loose-head options. Horan is probably a better scrummager but court offers more in open play, and considering either of them will struggle against the better teams I think their all round play should decide it. The choice is between Buckley and Hayes. I think the position should go to whoever shows up best in these matches. Buckley didn't impress at the week-end and undoubtedly the line-out improves when Hayes is on the field. We're ****ed if Ross gets injured anyway, so perhaps Hayes' experience and attitude makes him the better option. It's a coin toss really. Advantage Hayes at the moment imo.

yimrsg

buck65 wrote: »

Our front row is going to get eaten alive out there, luckily apart from a scrum Italy are crap, Australia will beat us well we will qualify but any of the following will beat us in a knockout - NZ, Aus, France, England, SA would too but not by much. Kidney has neglected the development of the front row and boy is it going to bite us in the ass.
Court, Horan, Buckley, Hayes - no other top 6 country in the world would be considering these guys unless the 5 or 6 props ahead of them were injured. That Ireland haven't developed young props to come in to replace Healy and Ross is a massive oversight.
Hayes had a massive end of season as did Horan (and fantastic careers) but really neither are first choice even for their club teams anymore. Court is just about good enough fo Ulster (just) and Buckley we all know is a wrecking ball but easily turned inside out at scrum time and is probably mentally flaky too.
Any team that decides to turn the screw on us will kick us off the park, Scotland did it last year and nearly this year and they are godawful. Remember a woeful Welsh team beat us too this year, we are crap away from home against the big teams.
Such a pity because we have a fine second and backrow, a hardworking midfield who still show the flashes of brilliance and a decent if unpredictable back 3.

I really think the bolded part is totally wrong.

I know it's wrong to bring club form and performances into a debate on the international stage but Ross, Healy and another from Best or a fit Flannery will be more than adequate to deal with most international front rows come scrum time. It's only when injuries or player rotation takes place that I'd be worrying. The scrum has turned into a great attacking platform with Ross in the side. I agree that we're still behind in blooding players as suitable backups.

Yes we've moved away from the lineout as our prefered set piece (possibly due to Hayes no longer being the first choice) but since scrums create the most space for attacking play versus lineouts in the game, it makes sense to utilise that to our advantage. From what little I've watched of southern hemisphere teams of late only a full strength SA without Smit and NZ would be superior come scrum time. Of the northern hemisphere teams I'd say there is very little in it also when first choices are available. Ireland might get pinged for early engagement and cough up some dubious penalties but our first choices are certainly able to hold there own internationally and are no longer considered a soft touch or a weakness to be targeted.

Hagz

grohlisagod wrote: »

Buckley didn't impress at the week-end and undoubtedly the line-out improves when Hayes is on the field. We're ****ed if Ross gets injured anyway, so perhaps Hayes' experience and attitude makes him the better option. It's a coin toss really. Advantage Hayes at the moment imo.

Where is this rubbish coming from about the line-out improving when Hayes came on??? We successfully won 1 line-out when he came on, and we lost 1 too. So how is that an improvement? Plus, why should Hayes get the credit instead of McLaughlin. After all, it was McLaughlin who slapped the ball from Strokosch's grasp.

I thought both Buckley and Hayes were equally awful on Saturday. When Hayes came on, there was no improvement in the line-outs, he killed an over-lap and he made the most stupid obstruction I've seen in while.

buck65

Listen guys it's just my opinion, I have seen us taken savage beatings up front away from home both clubs and country.
What if Healy is having trouble at scrum time as he has often had with Leinster - and Ireland - where do we go? Yes Ross is a good tight head and can lock a scrum but apart from one big shove against England and being told in the HCup final what he and Healy were doing wrong at halftime and correcting it - locking a scrum is as good as we can hope for.
We are depending on these two guys to play alot of rugby, with let's face it little on the bench to support them.
To me it seems a recipe for disaster. Again too much hype about Irish chances. Remember a clueless Wales beat us this season.