Is it okay to run on someone's shoulder?

Did kilomarathon yesterday. Was going along at my own pace and got overtaken by a couple. Upped my pace and they managed to drag me through the next 8 or 9 km - or at least they didn't get asked, I clung to them just about a metre behind.

The thought struck me a few times whether I should say something, apologise, thank them for helping me up the pace, overtake them and bring them along (they were running at a uniform pace). Is it "bad form" to simply hang in without any explanation or thanks?

robinph

Perfectly fine to tag onto the back of someone else. Not OK to make contact with them though.

Have been racing down a road with nobody else within 50 meters of me and on a wide road, but the guy tagged on behind still felt the need to be running so close directly behind me that he was clipping my heels several times over about a mile. Eventually dropped him, but if he'd clipped me again he'd have been liable to get a punch (well I was at least thinking about hitting him).

On bikes I think it would be considered bad form to not share the load of riding infront, where drafting is allowed, but on foot it doesn't have the same effect unless it's a really windy day.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

the guy tagged on behind still felt the need to be running so close directly behind me that he was clipping my heels several times over about a mile.

:D

Now THAT would be annoying!

Didn't clip them or talk to them. Was just wondering whether there was some unwritten rule of etiquette whereby you're expect to overtake for a while and return the compliment. I should say that may have been physically impossible, I faded a bit at about 18km. But was wondering whether afterwards they may have been annoyed or whether runners were expected to seek out the person who helped them bowl along, or whether it's all part of road running.

RoyMcC

I'm not one for running in groups but I don't mind someone on my shoulder - as long (as Robin says) they don't start invading your space.

Similarly I often find myself on a shoulder but - if you feel up to it - it's nice to swap the pacemaking about and even have a bit of chat.

robinph

You should acknowledge the people finishing infront and behind you as your going down the finish chute. You should be thinking along the lines of saying something like "good race", but the sounds that actually come out of your mouth do not need to actually make sense at that point, just shake hands/pat on the shoulder, grunt and smile a bit.

There is no rules of sharing the pace making in running, unless your actually a paid pacer. Maybe pass them a bottle of water at the water stations if it's crowded and not easy for everyone to get to the side, but other than that it's every man for himself until the finish line. If you sit on his shoulder until the line and then pull away over the last 100 then you should say thanks, but if they just dragged you along over the middle of the race then it doesn't matter unless you bump into them afterwards.

Brianderunner

It really grinds my gears when someone is on my shoulder. I'll let then stay there for 100m or so but if they're not doing their bit i'd; a) veer across the road like cyclists do, b) slow down to a jog letting them pass me and I draft off them then , c) surge away from them.

I have heard though that drafting at anything slower than 18km/hr is a waste of time if it isnt windy.

robinph

Brianderunner wrote: »

I have heard though that drafting at anything slower than 18km/hr is a waste of time if it isnt windy.

Your running well these days by the sounds of it.

elvis jones

I knew my lovely bottom comment would get its own thread eventually:D

robinph

elvis jones wrote: »

I knew my lovely bottom comment would get its own thread eventually:D

I would tend to drop back a bit in those circumstances, so as to get a better view. So any possibility of drafting goes out the window, but you have other incentives to try and keep up. :P

G-Money

I'm usually so far back I'm not able to keep up with anyone and everyone is ahead of me so I've not really experienced this too much.

One thing that does bug me is when people pass me out and miss me by about 2 millimetres. I hate that and one of these days I'm going to step out and if anyone collides into me it's their own fault for not giving me any room.

robinph

RoyMcC wrote: »

Similarly I often find myself on a shoulder but - if you feel up to it - it's nice to swap the pacemaking about and even have a bit of chat.

I think the mechanics of actually making a move to infront of the person your trailing is a lot different in running to cycling. In cycling there is a definite benefit to being behind in the amount of effort required to stay there, so the small burst of speed to come out of the shelter and move in front is relatively simple.

In running the difference in effort between the guy in front and the one following is non-existent, or at least extremely small as to be insignificant. There is psychological benefits though, but as long as I'm not being tripped I think I'd get almost the same from someone following me as from me being the follower. If you're the follower and you make the effort to move infront, you either keep that effort going for longer and pull away from the other guy, or you'll just tire quicker and then drop away off the back due to not holding the change of pace.

If someone who is following then moves beside me I'd see that as an "aggressive" tactical move in the race and probably just try and up my own pace as well.

It probably does also depend a bit on the race distance and how far through you are. The beginning of a marathon and it really doesn't matter who is infront of who and the chatting and running nicely together is all part of it. From the start of a 5km it's eyeballs out, every man for himself, get out of my way, arrrggh the pain...then you reach the finish and can commence the niceties.

RoyMcC

I'd say that there's a lot more chat going on down the back of the field where I'm to be found. And not too much worry about who's going to beat you. A few more makes no difference :pac:

tHE vAGGABOND

I have no problem in the world with people drafting behind me, Im bigger than average, so have in the past told people struggling to get in behind me and helped them along...

I guess many people try and find someone going at near their pace and follow them for a while, but a few meters behind [at least when your starting out running]

But people in my field of vision left or right, and just staying there, annoys the hell out of me and I will speed up or move left or right on the road to get them out of it. I dont know why, but I find myself loosing concentration and looking at them or wondering if they would feck off :pac:

robinph

RoyMcC wrote: »

I'd say that there's a lot more chat going on down the back of the field where I'm to be found. And not too much worry about who's going to beat you. A few more makes no difference :pac:

All depends on pace as to if your able to consider chatting I guess, there is certainly no spare capacity for me to be wasting breath on trying to talk during anything like a 5km or 10km. :eek:

Krusty_Clown

robinph wrote: »

In running the difference in effort between the guy in front and the one following is non-existent, or at least extremely small as to be insignificant.

Except where there is any kind of head-wind, at which point there is a pretty significant gain to be achieved by running behind the runner in front.

In these circumstances I have no qualms about following in somebody's footsteps, but will usually move in front to reciprocate. Usually when in front though, I try to close the gap to the next group, which means I end up pushing on, after passing. Whether they choose to follow or not? Up to them..

menoscemo

When I was running the Ultra in connemarra this year there was a group of 3 of us running along and chatting away/having a bit of Craic. We passed one guy at about 17 miles and he hung onto the back of the group, literally just about a metre back for about 8 miles. I have to say he really annoyed the hell out of us, we were all chatting and he never said a word despite us trying to involve him in conversation a few times. He also was panting like a dog and it definitely wrecked the buzz.

We were delighted when we finally dropped him. So I would say it is not OK to just to stay on someones shoulder, try to at least do your share of the work at the front and maybe try to engage in conversation with them at some stage (if it is a long distance race).

In a shorter race (5-10k) or a really crowded race like a big city marathon, staying on someone's shoulder would not be such an issue given that there'll be loads of people around so chances are, the group in front won't even notice you.

Bugsy2000

I asked a similar question here a couple of years after a race where I was tucked in behind someone for quite a while and got nearly 100% of responders saying it's every runner for themselves; anything goes in terms of draughting.

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

I have no problem in the world with people drafting behind me, Im bigger than average, so have in the past told people struggling to get in behind me and helped them along...

I guess many people try and find someone going at near their pace and follow them for a while, but a few meters behind [at least when your starting out running]

But people in my field of vision left or right, and just staying there, annoys the hell out of me and I will speed up or move left or right on the road to get them out of it. I dont know why, but I find myself loosing concentration and looking at them or wondering if they would feck off :pac:

This got me thinking as I'd get fairly distracted by things moving in my peripheral vision in normal everyday life, but I can't ever remember taking any notice of things around me in races. Don't ever remember looking behind me at all, that would be just too much effort and I need all the energy I can muster. It's why I can never understand why races are sold with claims of 'beautiful backdrops & fantastic sights' - I have to say I have never noticed them. Sorry, a bit off topic there.

robinph

menoscemo wrote: »

When I was running the Ultra in connemarra this year there was a group of 3 of us running along and chatting away/having a bit of Craic. We passed one guy at about 17 miles and he hung onto the back of the group, literally just about a metre back for about 8 miles. I have to say he really annoyed the hell out of us, we were all chatting and he never said a word despite us trying to involve him in conversation a few times. He also was panting like a dog and it definitely wrecked the buzz.

We were delighted when we finally dropped him. So I would say it is not OK to just to stay on someones shoulder, try to at least do your share of the work at the front and maybe try to engage in conversation with them at some stage (if it is a long distance race).

In a shorter race (5-10k) or a really crowded race like a big city marathon, staying on someone's shoulder would not be such an issue given that there'll be loads of people around so chances are, the group in front won't even notice you.

For a long race then a bit of civility is required alright, but it all comes down to how close to the edge you are as to if you have the spare brain capacity to do such things as chat. Sounds like the guy following was at his limit whilst the rest of you were plodding along.

Bugsy2000 wrote: »

This got me thinking as I'd get fairly distracted by things moving in my peripheral vision in normal everyday life, but I can't ever remember taking any notice of things around me in races. Don't ever remember looking behind me at all, that would be just too much effort and I need all the energy I can muster. It's why I can never understand why races are sold with claims of 'beautiful backdrops & fantastic sights' - I have to say I have never noticed them. Sorry, a bit off topic there.

Someone to the side of me doesn't bother me, infact I'd rather they were where I could see them and know what they are up to. Can also better gauge how knackered they are and when a good point to try and drop them might be.
Some nice scenery for a half or full marathon would be nice, but couldn't really care less about the surroundings for a 10km, once it's relatively flat I don't care.

I do tend to look behind me a lot on busier races and always glance over my shoulder before making any change of direction or position in the road. Especially when approaching a hairpin bend when I'll often slow a bit so that the guys following go infront and I can then take a wider turn without getting cut up.

YFlyer

Geb and Bekele are well known for it.

YFlyer

YFlyer wrote: »

Geb and Bekele are well known for it.

And worse still, they are useless for chats!

nerraw1111

It's okay to run on someone's shoulder as long as you beast them in a sprint finish.

Depends. If your racing, that's just tactics. It's a way of sussing out the guy in front and whether they're fading or not and if you should make a move.

However, Menoscemo's example would be a head wrecker. 8 miles is a bit much. The guy was probably pacing himself off the group but that could be done 50 metres back.

A road slapper/heavy breather on your shoulder can get annoying.

Bugsy2000

My name is Bugsy2000 & I am a heavy breather.

There, I have said it. I apologise to all those non-headphone wearers who have to put up with me. The joys of a busted nose.:rolleyes:

YFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

And worse still, they are useless for chats!

In fairness Geb would probably be up for chatting. Bekele is the quiet one.

Heard the Kenyan usually don't chat when they are training.

BeepBeep67

nerraw1111 wrote: »

It's okay to run on someone's shoulder as long as you beast them in a sprint finish.

Depends. If your racing, that's just tactics. It's a way of sussing out the guy in front and whether they're fading or not and if you should make a move.

However, Menoscemo's example would be a head wrecker. 8 miles is a bit much. The guy was probably pacing himself off the group but that could be done 50 metres back.

A road slapper/heavy breather on your shoulder can get annoying.

Is this a new type of adventure racing - where do I sign up?

BeepBeep67

I tend not to do it (except track), but don't have an issue with it either way, once they're not a space invader.