A slightly odd question

Rubecula

Years ago I tried to learn to speak Gaeilge. Sadly I had to do so on my own with books and tape recordings, and of course I failed miserably. However I now live in a Welsh speaking area of Wales and have made a hard attempt at learning the language. I have lived here some years and think it is only fair I do so.

The question I have to ask is:

Do you think that by learning one of our native tongues (in this case Cymraeg) helps in learning any of the others? Gaeilge, Manx, Cumbrian, Cornish, Scottish Gaelic etc etc. Or do they become too confusing when you are a native English speaker?

Mawkchunk

I have noticed big similarities between Scottish, Breton and Irish. I have heard that Welsh is a lot different than those ones as they were a different Celtic tribe....???

Rubecula

Yes that is true but I think that the way the languages are actually 'assembled' is different to English.

I am Rubecula (In English)

Rubecula I am (in Welsh)... Rubecula Dw i

I don't know the Gaeilge words but I assume it is the same word order as in Welsh?

And similar phrases of course, but you get my drift.

English is back to front to most languages and I think it shows up more in the Celtic tongues.

dubhthach

Insular Celtic languages are unusual when it comes to Indo-European languages in that they have a Verb Subject Object as oppose to Subject Verb Object

eg.

Irish: Dún mé an doras (Verb = Dún (Close), Subject = mé (me/I) Object= an doras (the door))
English: I closed the door (Subject = I, Verb = Closed, Object = the door)

Both Irish and Welsh are VSO when it comes to sentence formation. Interesting enough other VSO languages are Arabic, Hebrew, Berber and Austronesian languages (Polynesian, Filipino, Malay etc.)

Obviously Irish and Welsh have been spilt for a very long time. I've seen some research which puts the spilt date at about 900BC, however learning one would probably help with other, both languages for example have "initial mutations" (where value of consonant changes depending on gramatical case)

eg. Bád (Boat) -- sounds bit like english baud/bawd
mó bhád (my boat) -- B changes to a W (waud/wawd)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant_mutation#Celtic_languages

You have similiar in welsh, to an english speaker the easiest comparison is how the F in Knife/Wife changes to a V (Knife -> Knives)

dubhthach

Mawkchunk wrote: »

I have noticed big similarities between Scottish, Breton and Irish. I have heard that Welsh is a lot different than those ones as they were a different Celtic tribe....???

The Insular Celtic languages are divided into two branches. These been:

Goidelic: Irish (Gaeilge), Scottish Gàidhlig and Manx (Gaelg)
Brythonic: Welsh, Breton and Cornish

Both Manx and Cornish went extinct and are in process of been revivied. In case of Cornish it went extinct in the 18th century, last native speaker of Manx died in 1970's however enough recordings + learners existed to start a revival movement.

Breton is more closely related to Cornish then it is to Welsh. the theory is that Breton speakers fled across the English Channel from Cornwall/"West Country" during the 5-7th century due to Anglo-Saxon invasion/Irish raids.

The continental Celtic languages became extinct alot earlier, Gaulish probably by the 6th century at the latest. However enough written inscriptions exist to allow comparison with Insular Celtic languages.

A comparison I would make between Irish and English is like say compare English to German, obviously related languages but spilt by a long time with lots of innovations in both.

Rubecula

I have heard there is something referred to as "High English"

I can't speak it as far as I know. Not sure if I heard it I would understand it either, but apparently it is structured totally differently to what today we call "English"

Enkidu

Rubecula wrote: »

Do you think that by learning one of our native tongues (in this case Cymraeg) helps in learning any of the others? Gaeilge, Manx, Cumbrian, Cornish, Scottish Gaelic etc etc. Or do they become too confusing when you are a native English speaker?

Well first of all, enjoy learning Welsh, many consider it the most beautiful Indo-European language!:)

Secondly, learning Welsh would make learning Cornish much easier, since Cornish is really neo-Cornish, a reconstructed language that borrows a lot from Welsh.
Cumbrian is quite similar to Middle Welsh. Basically if you learnt Welsh and can perform some linguistic "lateral thinking" Cumbrian should be something you can grasp.

As for the Gaelic branch, as Dubhthach pointed out they are really quite a distance away, further than English and Swedish. Although there is a common Insular Celtic grammar structure underneath so you will leaner the grammar faster. I know a native Irish speaker (from Connemara) who is learning Welsh and she says that knowing Irish is a massive help.

Finally, Breton. Breton is probably the hardest of all the Celtic languages to learn (I'm not counting the semi-dead ones: Cornish and Manx). First of all because it's really two languages, as Vannetais Breton is really another language not a dialect. Also it is the most different grammatically. However knowing Welsh is still an advantage.

whydoibother?

I've noticed huge similarities between Scottish and Irish. When I say Scottish, I think there are two and I'm not sure which one I was reading on their public signs etc. I could guess most of it from learning Irish. I can't see much similarity between Welsh and Irish though.

Enkidu

dubhthach wrote: »

Obviously Irish and Welsh have been spilt for a very long time. I've seen some research which puts the spilt date at about 900BC, however learning one would probably help with other, both languages for example have "initial mutations" (where value of consonant changes depending on gramatical case)

I'm glad such a discussion has come up, since I meant to say something. In an earlier thread you mentioned the possibility that Irish and Welsh would have both evolved from Proto-Celtic coming from Gaul, without an actual Proto-Insular-Celtic existing being the ancestor of both separate from Gaulish. Basically you mentioned:
Proto-Celtic -> Gaulish, Irish, Welsh
Rather than:
Proto-Celtic -> Gaulish
Proto-Celtic -> Insular Celtic -> Irish, Welsh

I've done a bit of reading and it seems the possibility you mentioned is the most widely accepted one. So Irish and Welsh just evolved directly out of Proto-Celtic. Their Insular similarities are probably due to the sentence structure and accent of the original Pre-Celtic language common to both islands, rather than some common stage of Celtic evolution. It also allows the old P/Q division to make sense.

The basic idea now is that Proto-Celtic spread out in a wave from Austria covering the British Isles, Spain and France. In France an innovation occurred which caused P to be pronounced in words, which spread to Britain through trade. This left Ireland and Spain with the older more archaic Q-pronunciation. However parallel to that Irish and Welsh evolved similarly because of similar influences from the pre-Celtic language(s) of the British isles.

Enkidu

whydoibother? wrote: »

I've noticed huge similarities between Scottish and Irish. When I say Scottish, I think there are two and I'm not sure which one I was reading on their public signs etc. I could guess most of it from learning Irish. I can't see much similarity between Welsh and Irish though.

Not in the actual words, but the grammar is very similar.

dubhthach

Enkidu wrote: »

I'm glad such a discussion has come up, since I meant to say something. In an earlier thread you mentioned the possibility that Irish and Welsh would have both evolved from Proto-Celtic coming from Gaul, without an actual Proto-Insular-Celtic existing being the ancestor of both separate from Gaulish. Basically you mentioned:
Proto-Celtic -> Gaulish, Irish, Welsh
Rather than:
Proto-Celtic -> Gaulish
Proto-Celtic -> Insular Celtic -> Irish, Welsh

I've done a bit of reading and it seems the possibility you mentioned is the most widely accepted one. So Irish and Welsh just evolved directly out of Proto-Celtic. Their Insular similarities are probably due to the sentence structure and accent of the original Pre-Celtic language common to both islands, rather than some common stage of Celtic evolution. It also allows the old P/Q division to make sense.

The basic idea now is that Proto-Celtic spread out in a wave from Austria covering the British Isles, Spain and France. In France an innovation occurred which caused P to be pronounced in words, which spread to Britain through trade. This left Ireland and Spain with the older more archaic Q-pronunciation. However parallel to that Irish and Welsh evolved similarly because of similar influences from the pre-Celtic language(s) of the British isles.

One explanation I've heard for some of the similarities between Irish and Welsh (other then VSO -- seems to be pre-Indo European) is that with arrival of christianity that the a Sprachbund (Linguistic contact area) formed. As a result innovations that might have been in Brythonic spread into Goidelic (Proto-Irish) via the spread of literacy etc

Alot of early borrowings of Latin words into Irish come via Brythonic/Welsh no doubt alot of the early church fathers had origins in Brythonic speaking Britain (Patrick is prime example)

The spilt between Brythonic and Goidelic is probably closer together then spilt of both from what late became Gaulish.

dubhthach

Enkidu wrote: »

Not in the actual words, but the grammar is very similar.

Well alot of words are very similiar, after all Old-Irish/Middle-Irish is ancestor of both. I often think of best comparison would be to say that Irish and Gàidhlig are like the relationship between Danish and Swedish. Very close both only spilt by 500years+

Enkidu

dubhthach wrote: »

Well alot of words are very similiar, after all Old-Irish/Middle-Irish is ancestor of both. I often think of best comparison would be to say that Irish and Gàidhlig are like the relationship between Danish and Swedish. Very close both only spilt by 500years+

Sorry my original post was vague, I was responding to the Irish and Welsh part.

Rubecula

I suppose there must be a lot of words that are common throughout all of these languages, or if not common at least very similar.

for example and this is probably not a good one but hopefully you will get my drift.

All locations know what an Englishman is, be they Irish, Scottish, Welsh etc.

In Irish he is a Sassenach, In Scotland he is a Sassenach, in Welsh he is a Saisneg (sounding very similar):)

My own thought was that it is only in the written word that these languages differ so much, after all they were all spoken languages rather than written ones at one time. So the original differences could be down to dialects? Or am I totally wrong (again):)

dubhthach

Rubecula wrote: »

In Irish he is a Sassenach, In Scotland he is a Sassenach, in Welsh he is a Saisneg (sounding very similar):)

All derived from Old-English Seaxe (Old Saxon: Sahson, Latin: Saxones), or as we say in modern-english: Saxon

You have to remember that Irish and Scottish shared a common written language into medieval period (as late as 16/17th century). In many ways the situation would have been similiar to Germany in the 19th century. All writing/learned activity was in "High German" however most people spoke local "dialects" some of which were nearly verging on a different language (Low German for example)

Of course by the end of this period "Middle Irish"/"Early Modern Irish" didin't really reflect the situation on the ground (Caint na nDaoine -- the people speech).

Basically you can compare seperation between Irish and Scottish (Gàidhlig) as equivalent to spilt between Danish, Norwegian and Swedish -- which really only occured post the 13/14th century.

Welsh and Irish in comparison never shared a common written history, both develope their own writing style independently of one another. I remember reading somewhere (though I could be mistaken) that Irish and Welsh share about 40-50% vocabulary in common (though obviously often with different spelling etc.)

Thence I'd compare Swedish to English as a comparison in the Germanic world.