The NCT moving target ...

ahal

My car is currently lurking in that middle ground between scrappage and keepage (if that's actually a word :rolleyes:) As some will know, the car is a 1994 Volvo 440. It failed on the handbrake two years ago. That particular test was memorable to say the least: the 'tester' couldn't find first gear, nor was he able to open the boot (at which point he started bouncing the car up and down on the key) The car also picked up a sizeable dent, but I was politely told to bugger off.

Fast forward to April 2011 - and less than 9,000 miles of town driving later - and they find a huge amount of advanced rust under the car (requiring a weld) and basically I end up fitting two new wishbones (bushings problems galore) What wasn't noticed was the missing droplink on the driver's side. A neighbour pointed it out to me a few weeks ago. I was told that this just decided to fall off after 17 years, a couple of months after the test in April. Strange that the car drives no differently though. Strange also that in December 2010 a snow chain flew off that wheel. At a guess I'd say it's been missing since then, but NCT people seem to live in a world of extreme coincidence.

I ended up missing the retest (had to get the above rake of work done) so last night I go for the full test again. This time it's the brake lines and hoses - all of them! Now I knew that these were bad (noticed myself) and they're no worse than they were a year ago. If I had got the re-test on time, I could have got a 2 year cert before the 01st. of June with brake lines and hoses that are now deemed too dangerous for a 1 year cert, despite the condition being no different.

I used to think that people who complained about the NCT being a racket were just bitter, but I'm beginning to see their point. At this rate there will be no 1990's cars left on the roads. My arguement here isn't about last night. The guy who tested the car knew what he was doing. My point is that something deemed that bad a couple of months after it's deemed okay suggests that the previous tester wasn't doing his job. I'm now half way into this financially and every other way, whereas if the car was properly assessed in the first place I could have had the opportunity to make an educated decision (ie: go with it or choose another car)

carchaeologist

Great post. The words money racket spring to mind don't they. I had a capri once with a visibly bent front chassis leg and it passed no prob. Also heard story's of lads hammering balljoints to take up the slack and the cars passing too.

Rickwellwood

OP the NCT thing is riddled with inconsistency. I've a 1994 Mazda 626 1.8i petrol with 2 years NCT just recently got thankfully. Car goes like a train. Was very keen to get it to pass.

I was in that middle ground very recently too. Was mindful of the June 1 2011 cutoff date for 2 year NCT.

I took it to a garage to get a pre NCT look around. They picked up that rear drop links needed replacing and front driver's side tie rod also dodgy.

NCT lads officially picked up rear discs, pads and calipers and front driver's side brake hose. No mention of drop links or tie rod.

New calipers a side priced at €150 :eek: from a local dealer - went up north and got for €40 a side with good pads on there.

VanhireBoys

I feel your pain Tony... Its a lottery. It depends on which inspector you get on the day. My wifes Micra "Betsy" had a rotton crossmember behind the radiator.. It was like cream crackers.. It was too close to the test time to get it sorted so I just took it up to the centre... It passed which I was shocked at.. I got a new panel welded into the car - Made me wonder what would have happened if she had an accident..! :mad:

I know of an 07 Avensis which sailed through recently and the front wishbones were shot to bits..!

once they see a 90's car they do their best to fail it.... Welcome to teh NCT :eek:

unkel

VanhireBoys wrote: »

once they see a 90's car they do their best to fail it....

I have mostly good things to say about the NCT, but that ^^^ I experienced too.

I've put dozens of cars through and typically a relatively new lower end car takes maybe 30 mins max to go through. Whereas any older and more powerful car seem to be scrutinized. On several occasions two lads with big flashlights spend at least half an hour inspecting the underside of the car.

I've no problem with this in principle - I'm getting a lot of value out of my €50 inspection

I sometimes did get the impression they wave cars through that they expect to pass. This for sure is not a good thing. There should be an independent organisation doing random checks on cars straight after they passed, to put a bit of fear into any lazy NCT testers, so they will do their job properly

Redrocket

well said, there should definitely be spot checks, or even "bait cars" sent in to see how they perform

Arthur Daley

It is like with football refereering, it is the lack of consistency that drives people mad. We know there is a need for standards and rules, but it is the way some relatively minor points are picked up on:rolleyes: depending on the day you do the test.

Also, I'm sceptical of the new car lobby aiming to get a stimulus package like scrappage, and how this might influence NCT. Some cars will fail, but they should be the minority, and we should encourage the fixing of older cars by local mechanics as a jobs boost in the first instance. If the car is too far gone fair enough, but it is just wrong to have serviceable cars crushed without making some attempt to keep them going for the sake of the environment if nothing else.

chevyv8

heres onethat happened to my better halfs car less than 6 weeks ago. i went down to the nct test center with her cos she was worried sick , i checked the car out and everything seemed ok . anyway we went down to nct and the car failed, not only did it fail but it failed dangerously. the put a bloody big sticker across the windscreen saying dangerous to drive, which i must say shocked me. i asked what the problem was and was told a major fuel leak in the filler pipe and a headlamp gone. i checked it and there was a pinhole and i mean a pinhole in the breather pipe above the fuel filler pipe, my better half completely filled the tank on the way down to the test center and it splashed up and a drop of fuel showed on the breather pipe, they told her not to drive the car but to get it lifted home.
anyways we got the car home and i orderd the part, had to wait a week cos they never had to replace one before. i replaced it and brought the car back to be retested,
i was primed and ready to raise hell with them. anyways as he got into the car i went into the viewing room,, he lifted the bonnet looked at the carb,dropped the bonnet and took the car out . it passed.
it passed and i wanted to inquire how it passed when they didnt even check for a so called dangerous fault, my other half told me to let it go as she was afraid they would mark the car and get at her again in the future, so she said to keep quiet...
my question was and still is how the hell did it pass with this so called dangerous fault and the idiot didnt even check for it, its a bloody money making racket. :mad::mad::mad:

mgbgt1978

Great craic last year when we had to NCT the son's '94 Mini. It's a Mini 35 which came from the factory with a carb and a Cat.
In the NCT manual (available on their website) it states that this particular model is exempt from the newer tests such as Lambda etc.
Anyway the the tester informs us that the car failed on emissions and a balljoint.
After a small discussion about the emissions failure ( I had leaned the carb off enough to make the car barely drivable) he sort of agreed to run it through again if he could figure out what the emissions readings should be.
He couldn't find the NCT's own manual on their website. I suggested my son could get it up on the screen if he was allowed behind the counter for a couple of minutes, but apparently the world stops spinning on it's axis if a member of the public touches anything (apart from the vending machines) in an NCT centre.
Then the local NCT Papa Smurf arrived to impart his wisdom....this was a Saturday so the supervisor (and manager) were not working.
His considered opinion was that "if it's a'94 car then it MUST be tested under '94 emissions limits".
After another 20 minutes of chat it was finally decided (by the 6 employees, who by now were all involved in the discussion) that maybe there might actually be an exemption for this particular car.
next job was to decide what the emissions level should be. they finally decided to set the CO2 pass level at 4.2% even though the NCT manual puts it at 3.5%.
The car was putting out .9% (really leaned off) and they then then gave us a Pass Cert, despite the fact that we were being failed on a R/H balljoint 50 minutes earlier.:rolleyes:

DaveCol

unkel wrote: »

. On several occasions two lads with big flashlights spend at least half an hour inspecting the underside of the car.

I've no problem with this in principle - I'm getting a lot of value out of my €50 inspection

My Dad took his 1980 Mini to be tested recently. He was laughing that the 6 guys who were on that day were all underneath the car with torches looking for reasons to fail it

trevorbrady

ahal wrote: »

I ended up missing the retest (had to get the above rake of work done) so last night I go for the full test again. This time it's the brake lines and hoses - all of them! Now I knew that these were bad (noticed myself) and they're no worse than they were a year ago. If I had got the re-test on time, I could have got a 2 year cert before the 01st. of June with brake lines and hoses that are now deemed too dangerous for a 1 year cert, despite the condition being no different.

I can't be lieve you drove your car in full knowledge that the brake hoses were dodgy. they're cheap, just change them and you might save your own or maybe someone elses life...

ahal

trevorbrady wrote: »

I can't be lieve you drove your car in full knowledge that the brake hoses were dodgy. they're cheap, just change them and you might save your own or maybe someone elses life...

I was waiting for this. Fyi my car has been to two garages to have the steering checked in less than a year, and to check for anything else amiss ... a 'check up' if you will. Both returned nothing. I'm not a mechanic and I'm not planning on becoming one.

Incidentally, one of those garages was an S.I.M.I. member, for good measure.

se conman

My brother brought his car in for a test (car is always looked after very well) , tester was checking lights with engine turned off and took a private phone call which lasted a long time. When tester finally came back the battery was flat , they pushed the car out of the centre and said "tuff" , would not give him a jump-start and just left him there. They could not finish the test and he failed.

corktina

ahal wrote: »

I was waiting for this. Fyi my car has been to two garages to have the steering checked in less than a year, and to check for anything else amiss ... a 'check up' if you will. Both returned nothing. I'm not a mechanic and I'm not planning on becoming one.

Incidentally, one of those garages was an S.I.M.I. member, for good measure.

"Now I knew that these were bad (noticed myself) and they're no worse than they were a year ago. " Not a mechanic but able to spot bad brake lines and judge they are no worse a year later!

The NCT for all its faults is designed to make the roads safer. It isnt something to be got around at all costs (by leaning off the carb to get lower emissions for example and then adjusting it back after).Im sure its not perfect but its a start

ghenderson

that would be the AA

mgbgt1978

corktina wrote: »

The NCT for all its faults is designed to make the roads safer. It isnt something to be got around at all costs (by leaning off the carb to get lower emissions for example and then adjusting it back after).Im sure its not perfect but its a start

The roads are MUCH safer when my young fellows Mini isn't running a bit rich.:rolleyes:

Come off it Corktina, Have a pop at the guy with the rotten brake pipes if you like , but how else can the emissions be lowered on a carbed car other than by adjusting the mixture screw?
As i don't have access to a gas analyser I find it easier (and much cheaper) to just lean the mixture off before the NCT to avoid having to pay for a retest.

Also if you read the rest of my post you would see that the NCT ("for all it's faults") forgot about the worn ball-joint because they were too busy scratching their heads while trying to figure out their own rules.

ahal

corktina wrote: »

"Now I knew that these were bad (noticed myself) and they're no worse than they were a year ago. " Not a mechanic but able to spot bad brake lines and judge they are no worse a year later!

The NCT for all its faults is designed to make the roads safer. It isnt something to be got around at all costs (by leaning off the carb to get lower emissions for example and then adjusting it back after).Im sure its not perfect but its a start

Just to clarify. When I say "bad" I meant surface corrosion. Not in bits, but enough to get it checked. This is a dual lesson: clearly I've had far too much faith in garages. A mechanic did tell me that several garages don't want to be bothered with older cars. A good case in point would be a couple of years back, defective handbrake. I go to the local S.I.M.I. fella and he gives me horror stories about opening the hub, and how it could cost hundreds, etc.

I had to get nasty with him in order to find out what the worst case scenario might be (S.I.M.I. garages are obliged to quote) Turned out to be a peice of proverbial pee anyway. To get back to the brake lines, following the large thud from the snow chain falling off during the snow I did check for obvious damage to anything. I happened to see a thin metal tube coming down behind the wheel. By a process of elimination, I sussed that it had to do with the brakes. Got someone to confirm it. Not quite Edd China I'm sure you'll agree.

No one is trying to get around the NCT at all costs here, if in fact it did make the roads safer (before the NCT less than 1% of serious accidents were caused by mechanical defect btw) So far we've had:

1/ Exhaust needing work
2/ A weld
3/ Rebuilt both rear wheelarches (same condition as last time, but a problem now)
4/ new wishbones left and right front with new CV joints
5/ Now new brake lines

It's one thing maintaining your car, it's another rebuilding it! If I was tearing around bad roads and racked up 30k. a year I'd understand it. As mentioned previously, the car has done less than 9k. since the last NCT, all of it town driving. A neighbour explained the bushings to me. They were so bad on the wishbone that came off that you can wiggle them any direction with the small finger. How did I know they needed to be done? Well, the guy I saw about the weld moved the passenger wheel from side to side while he was down there and remarked "Jesus, that's lethal".

Incidentally, I did both wishbones and CV joints for good measure, along with a set of drop links (one to replace the non existant one they didn't notice, the other again for good measure) Hardly trying to skimp am I?

davoxx

it depends which ones you go to ...

but to be honest they should have mechanics working there. It's like having a medical check up by a cashier girl using wikipedia, except that the girl can read, is polite and will give you a refund.

i personally can go into horror stories on nct tests, not being followed out to their documented procedure, had cars damaged, unable to tell the difference between various car parts, and how their complaint system was a waste of time.

but hey it saves lives right? accidents are now down 1000000% as old cars caused all accidents, and now there are none!!!

BronsonTB

Has nobody ever met a tick gaurd & a nice gaurd????
Well just like the NCT you can have a nice inspector & a tick inspector....They both have the rules to follow but do also have to make there own judgements within the test.....So you can get completely different results depending on the tester....

I've exprienced both types of testers/centre's with my Capri....In the end I found 1 centre was more 'favorable' or tolerable to older cars.

davoxx

BronsonTB wrote: »

Has nobody ever met a tick gaurd & a nice gaurd????
Well just like the NCT you can have a nice inspector & a tick inspector....They both have the rules to follow but do also have to make there own judgements within the test.....So you can get completely different results depending on the tester....

I've exprienced both types of testers/centre's with my Capri....In the end I found 1 centre was more 'favorable' or tolerable to older cars.

almost sounds like you're justifying it? but i understand what you are saying, give a little man a little power, and boom, instant feck head!!
feck head levels may vary.

BronsonTB

davoxx wrote: »

almost sounds like you're justifying it? but i understand what you are saying, give a little man a little power, and boom, instant feck head!!
feck head levels may vary.

Sorry if it sounded that way but I'd never, ever try justifying the balls that it is...Was just highlighting it's the same with alot of the 'establishment' :mad:

davoxx

BronsonTB wrote: »

Sorry if it sounded that way but I'd never, ever try justifying the balls that it is...Was just highlighting it's the same with alot of the 'establishment' :mad:

i agree with you 100% the irish government does love raping its citizens, again and again and again, and it seems like the put in place new procedures to do this ...

complaint to any government or government approved service is a waste of time, from ombudsmen to "complaints procedure", nothing ever changes. if you could fire a civil servant for being a useless tool, then we'd see such a change in service, but we reward incompetent fools, eh Bertie?, so in a sense i blame the idiots who voted for corrupt incompetent governments again and again and again .. i forgive labour voters this time, they did not know that labour was going to bend over and drop them with a smile ...

ahal

There are some very good points made here. I do of course accept that there will be variations in any service, and there always will be where we have humans involved. I'm not even impressed with the Primetime scandal tbh, I would think that there'd have to be something wrong if there wasn't a small element of that going on. It happens in the U.K. as well.

What I don't accept is the total inconsistency. The NCT is well bedded in at this stage, going for 11 years as it has been. The tester in April was panicky and highly strung, and was more fixated on the wheelarches than anything else. I was told to fill the arches and that isopon would be okay. I was told that rustproofing wasn't enough (which I prefer, as it's possible to keep an eye on things for rust returning) Therefore, Isopon by default is structural, in a secondary way. It's nonsense.

When the passenger side wishbone came off recently - 9k. later - you could twiddle the bushings in any direction with your little finger. I think that might have been a more immediate issue! Unkel is right, the car got super - scrutinized, this time, as did a '97 and a '95. Newer stuff practically drove through the ramp part, which amounts to double standards. Those cars are not necessarily all 'safe'.

The latest tester was calm and methodical, to give him his dues. It seems to me that the "old car, bad car" drivel is systemic and comes from the top. After all, the RSA claim that a disproportionate amount of old cars are involved in serious accidents, and then go on to talk about the dangers of mechanical failure on the next paragraph on their website. Nowhere do they give statistics linking the two. A lot of these testers get excited when they find something wrong. It's a real "gotcha!" moment. The test then pretty much ends there, leaving stuff like I'm now dealing with to be picked up down the line.

bugsntinas

our '91 fiesta sailed thru just recently.the wife took it in and she said it took almost an hour.luckily we had a pre nct the day before with only slight brake adjustment,light adjustment and emisions done.but years ago we took a sierra in and they said the cv boot was split so ordered a new one and when i went to fit it the failed one was just dirty!!:rolleyes:

davoxx

davoxx wrote: »

............
but to be honest they should have mechanics working there. .............
.............

afaik they are qualified mechanics, sh1t ones no doubt in most cases but they are mechanics.

unkel

RoverJames wrote: »

afaik they are qualified mechanics, sh1t ones no doubt in most cases but they are mechanics.

That's harsh. A lot of the testers are foreign and I'd say a lot of the Irish testers had been employed as regular mechanics previously but were made redundant.

But I grant you, being an NCT tester is a lot less challenging a job than being a regular mechanic fixing cars.

ahal

In fairness I've found the testers a mixed bag ... but a VERY mixed bag. When you get a very mixed bag it's not the testers, it's the system imho. I've been both very impressed and unimpressed with the testers at various times.

I think the current problem is that they're probably getting a new circular every week from on high telling them to watch out for this and that with older cars.

Believe it or not, the standards for testing 1994 cars like I have are still open to change on a regular basis. I was told that it's like this because "new features can be added to cars" to which I replied "no new features will be added to a 1994 car". They agreed with me, but it's the RSA that call the shots, not NCTS.

It's also possible that the sight of a 1994 Volvo reminds them of a 1993 Carina Taxi ... ahem ...

ahal

corktina wrote: »

"Now I knew that these were bad (noticed myself) and they're no worse than they were a year ago. " Not a mechanic but able to spot bad brake lines and judge they are no worse a year later!

So a couple of weeks later nothing more to say on this bit of innuendo then? It might be more constructive to look at the issues rather than trying to judge the character / level of honesty of someone you don't know.

corktina

huh? . What has their character or level of honesty got to do with it?

ahal

I'll put it like this. If I have a dodgy socket in my house I'll get an electrician to look at it. I won't go at it myself in case I burn the house down. I may notice it looks dodgy, but not messing with it myself doesn't mean I'm chancing my arm.

corktina

it does if you leave it a year!

ahal

corktina wrote: »

it does if you leave it a year!

Correct, it would.

corktina

"Now I knew that these were bad (noticed myself) and they're no worse than they were a year ago"

ahal

corktina wrote: »

"Now I knew that these were bad (noticed myself) and they're no worse than they were a year ago"

.... so as a non mechanic I got them checked and they were deemed okay. Your point is?

corktina

My point? Im not trying to make any point. youre the one wanted me to say more. I thought you didnt understand.

As I read it you knew your brake lines were bad for a year before it failed the NCT on them. Bad brake lines can go at any time without warning leaving you with no brakes.

ahal

Ah, I see. You like to come on and suggest that people are chancing their arm without the facts, and then when the facts don't concur with that you scarper because as the Elton John song goes "sorry is the hardest word" :rolleyes:

DaveJac

i had a 91 corolla, i did all the obvious stuff i could see wrong with it, knew it wasnt going to pass, failed on brake pipes got them replaced went back for a retest in a different centre and got another list, was fairly pissed off and when i said i dont mind it failing on stuff if it was picked up the first time i would have sorted it and that i wouldnt be paying for another retest they didnt really know what to do and got pissed off with me, I didnt bother going back just drove on, They really need a manager in every center no offence to any of the lads working there but the majority of them are not front of house orientated dont seem to be able to deal when people look for some fair treatment

gyppo

A few years back, my wife had a '92 starlet. This car was a low mileage car in excellent condition. The car went for its NCT, and the tester said the car was perfect, (all tests were well within tolerances) but it should have been recalled at some stage in its life for the free fitting of a lap belt.
I was told to contact the local toyota dealers, arrange the belt to be fitted, and a cert would be issued after a visual inspection.

Anyhow, I got the runaround from the dealers, and it took some time for them to get the belt, and organise fitting of it. The result was that the car was not ready for the visual examination within 28 days, and another test was necessary.

Upshot was the car failed on the sideslip test - badly.
I showed the tester the previous report, and the car had less than 90 miles driven since its last test, and asked politely how there could be such a difference in the time elapsed.

At this stage, he went bright red, mumbled something, and told me to wait a few minutes. A few minutes later I was presented with an NCT cert, and a report sheet that was identical to the previous one, and I was told to go on my way.

Draw your own conclusions from the above.

corktina

ahal wrote: »

Ah, I see. You like to come on and suggest that people are chancing their arm without the facts, and then when the facts don't concur with that you scarper because as the Elton John song goes "sorry is the hardest word" :rolleyes:

whatever..

ahal

Just a little update.

I brought my car to a reputable mechanic, now that the NCT had decided the brake lines had "advanced corrosion". He duly parked the car over his pit and had a look. Turned out what I could see myself all along wasn't that bad but what I couldn't see was atrocious. The brake lines are practically falling apart with rust up the side of the petrol tank.

Just to put this in perspective, had I got the car re-tested before the 1st. of June I would have got a 2 - year cert., in which time this mechanic assured me the brakes would most likely fail. Just to clarify, nothing was said about the brake lines during the previous test in April. Some load of sh1t this NCT is!

unkel

ahal wrote: »

Some load of sh1t this NCT is!

There was 4 months between your previous test and your current test and the brake lines could have deteriorated in that period to go from "pass" condition to "fail".

By not testing / re-testing your car on time, you are responsible for driving around in an unsafe car. Don't go blaming the NCT and accusing them of things you can not prove.

Thanks for the update BTW

ahal

I somehow doubt that the brakes deteriorated in that short a time, in fairness a droplink was missed as well so I'm not filled with confidence. Yes I do blame them. They gave me a €500 list and about 2 months of work - leaving aside what had to be 'farmed out' - to do!

So in 9000 miles since Pioter or Dawid who couldn't put the car in 1st. or figure out how to open the boot in 2009 passed the car, we have:

Bushings falling apart
CV joint needed either side
Droplink (they didn't notice)
Rear wheelarches needing rebuilding
Mysterious hole about 1/2 a metre long in the floorpan
Engine running lean

... and now brake lines that rust in 3 months (on a 17 year old Volvo! lol!)

Come on, that's quite a tot up for 9k. of town driving in as near perfect conditions as you're going to get! Do you really wonder why I didn't make it in the 30 days? Incidentally I'm now in a situation where I've blown all this money and have been told I need to blow the same again. Had the car been properly inspected by mister "Car must go to bodyshop, but car in good condition" I could have made a decision based on that.

You should see the state of the brake lines. No way did that happen under 1 year. Even if it did, they give a cert for a year, not for brake lines to be falling apart 3 months later, so it's a moot point anyway.

Thank Christ I didn't get the 2 year cert before the 1st. of June. I'd have ended up getting brake failure.

unkel

ahal wrote: »

You should see the state of the brake lines. No way did that happen under 1 year.

ahal wrote: »

Thank Christ I didn't get the 2 year cert before the 1st. of June. I'd have ended up getting brake failure.

You're making assumptions and you are accusing the NCT of things you can not prove. We really can't have that on boards.ie

Thread closed.