Mature student stuck in a grant loophole

dath

Being totally exhausted with dealing with CDVEC and the citizens info office, I'm looking for some advice as a last resort re applying for the student grant as a mature student.

I had done 3 years of a 5 year degree, but had to defer for the last two years because I never got any financial assistance from my parents but was means tested on their incomes regardless for the grant.

I have been working part-time for the last 2 years, am now 24 and obviously have been living independently for far longer than since last October.

I hoped to return to year 4 of the same degree course in September, with the aid of my first ever Higher Education Grant (to cover the student contribution fee) and hopefully the BTEA.

However, when I went to give my form to the CDVEC, they told me that I would have to declare my parent's income as well as my own, and apply as a dependent mature student.

The notes clearly state that you are a dependent mature student "If you were 23 years of age or older on 1 January 2011 AND were ordinarily resident with your parent(s) or legal guardian from the 1st October of the year prior to entry or re-entry"

I was very much not resident with my parents and have all the documentary evidence to prove it.

Can anybody help me with this please?

I really am quiet desperate at this stage.

Thanks

IPushButtons

Why are they telling you to do this ???

Also have a look here to see if your parents income will push you above the income threshold for the grant

http://www.studentfinance.ie/downloads/Student%20Grant%20Scheme%202011.pdf ( page 35 )

Dermo

dath wrote: »

However, when I went to give my form to the CDVEC, they told me that I would have to declare my parent's income as well as my own, and apply as a dependent mature student.

The notes clearly state that you are a dependent mature student "If you were 23 years of age or older on 1 January 2011 AND were ordinarily resident with your parent(s) or legal guardian from the 1st October of the year prior to entry or re-entry"

I was very much not resident with my parents and have all the documentary evidence to prove it.

What did they say when you pointed this out to them?

dath

IPushButtons wrote: »

Why are they telling you to do this ???

The guy in the CDVEC said because i was under 23 when i started the course.

i feel i have fallen into a category they didn't account for in the rules so they are just putting me as a dependant

Dermo

dath wrote: »

The guy in the CDVEC said because i was under 23 when i started the course.

i feel i have fallen into a category they didn't account for in the rules so they are just putting me as a dependant

no, that is not what the notes say.

"If you were 23 years of age or older on 1 January 2011 AND were ordinarily resident with your parent(s) or legal guardian from the 1st October of the year prior to entry or re-entry"

You are judged on when you re-entered not when you first entered.

Annasopra

This could be the 3 year rule.

You cannot change your status from dependent to independent unless you have taken a 3 year break.

Annasopra

Dermo wrote: »

no, that is not what the notes say.

"If you were 23 years of age or older on 1 January 2011 AND were ordinarily resident with your parent(s) or legal guardian from the 1st October of the year prior to entry or re-entry"

You are judged on when you re-entered not when you first entered.

You can't change status at reentry point unless there is a 3 year break

Dermo

mango salsa wrote: »

You can't change status at reentry point unless there is a 3 year break

sorry. yeah you are correct. My brain skipped the part in the OP where he said 2 years.


OP, mango salsa is correct. It isn't a loophole. To be declared a mature student you must have at least a 3 year break.

needadvi

If you are going to be receiving the BTEA then you need not get too bogged down on this issue, as the grant awarding authority will only be paying your registration fees.

Also you will receive 500 euro from the BTEA which can contribute to the registration fees if all else fails.

Just stand your ground, and tell them you are not living with your parents and that they have a right to refuse to submit their details. They can't force your parents to hand over the details esp since your not living with them and your not a child and since it's not them applying for a course.

Stand your ground, Don't budge and if all else fails BTEA will give you 500.

Or you could just start a new course or something. They would have to take exceptional circumstances into account. If you can't afford it you can't afford it. Start complaining making complaints etc. This country is bad enough as it is

dath

Thanks for the help.

So it seems that my best option is to try and stick as an independent mature student and argue that i am in exceptional circumstances, yes?

I wonder who to try and petition now. Should i just keep with the CDVEC or would it be worth talking to my local councillor or TD?

annacanna

this has me worried big time

im 25 not living with my parents and i plan to do a plc course this sept in community care and then next year go to college doing social studies

i dont have an esb bill from oct so if i did apply for the grant it would prob be based on my parents income, so i am not applying for a grant i have applied to be a vtos place as i need childcare but next year will i be seen as dependant as when i re-entered education (plc in sept) or will i just be assesed at the time i apply for a grant as it will be my first time going to college?

dath

annacanna wrote: »

this has me worried big time

im 25 not living with my parents and i plan to do a plc course this sept in community care and then next year go to college doing social studies

i dont have an esb bill from oct so if i did apply for the grant it would prob be based on my parents income, so i am not applying for a grant i have applied to be a vtos place as i need childcare but next year will i be seen as dependant as when i re-entered education (plc in sept) or will i just be assesed at the time i apply for a grant as it will be my first time going to college?

From what i can determine if you were in a course as one class of student, you need to leave education entirely for 3 full years before you can return as another class. e.g. from dependant mature to independent mature.

I am being assessed in 2011 on my residency in October 2004

dath

annacanna wrote: »

this has me worried big time

im 25 not living with my parents and i plan to do a plc course this sept in community care and then next year go to college doing social studies

i dont have an esb bill from oct so if i did apply for the grant it would prob be based on my parents income, so i am not applying for a grant i have applied to be a vtos place as i need childcare but next year will i be seen as dependant as when i re-entered education (plc in sept) or will i just be assesed at the time i apply for a grant as it will be my first time going to college?

From what i can determine if you were in a course as one class of student, you need to leave epducation entirely for 3 full years before you can return as another class. e.g. from dependant mature to independent mature.

I am being assessed in 2011 on my residency in October 2004

Larianne

dath wrote: »

I wonder who to try and petition now. Should i just keep with the CDVEC or would it be worth talking to my local councillor or TD?

Yes, I'd get in contact with your councillor and local TDs and see who can help you.

annacanna

dath wrote: »

From what i can determine if you were in a course as one class of student, you need to leave epducation entirely for 3 full years before you can return as another class. e.g. from dependant mature to independent mature.

I am being assessed in 2011 on my residency in October 2004

even if im not applying for a grant for the plc course?
it dosent seem right as im going from doing a plc course to doing a college course.
im a single mother so there is no way i could go to college next sept as i would need to move for it if im not getting the full grant:(

Annasopra

dath wrote: »

Thanks for the help.

So it seems that my best option is to try and stick as an independent mature student and argue that i am in exceptional circumstances, yes?

I wonder who to try and petition now. Should i just keep with the CDVEC or would it be worth talking to my local councillor or TD?

Not really - you have 2 options - 1 get assessed on your parents income 2 wait a year, in some circumstances where someone is irrenconcilably estranged from parents they will assess you independently.

Annasopra

annacanna wrote: »

this has me worried big time

im 25 not living with my parents and i plan to do a plc course this sept in community care and then next year go to college doing social studies

i dont have an esb bill from oct so if i did apply for the grant it would prob be based on my parents income, so i am not applying for a grant i have applied to be a vtos place as i need childcare but next year will i be seen as dependant as whe toi re-entered education (plc in sept) or will i just be assesed at the time i apply for a grant as it will be my first time going to college?

If you have any bills, rent book, social welfare letters, letter from prtb from October of last year its worthwhile applying for the grant this year.

dath

mango salsa wrote: »

Not really - you have 2 options - 1 get assessed on your parents income 2 wait a year, in some circumstances where someone is irrenconcilably estranged from parents they will assess you independently.

The issue is if i go with option 1, i will be assessed on all 3 incomes (father, mother, me) as one household but we are not one household. i maintain a separate household which is a 210 km drive away.

Surely they should not count as one household!

annacanna

anyone know if its possible to defer a plc course for a year?

dath

annacanna wrote: »

anyone know if its possible to defer a plc course for a year?

It generally is. Just phone the college and ask them. Be sure to get written confirmation

Annasopra

dath wrote: »

The issue is if i go with option 1, i will be assessed on all 3 incomes (father, mother, me) as one household but we are not one household. i maintain a separate household which is a 210 km drive away.

Surely they should not count as one household!

I know but you don't really have a choice - Because you are "reentering" after less than 3 years you can't change the "class"

Classes of applicant
12. (1) For the purposes of this Scheme there shall be two classes of applicant
as follows—
(a) independent student; and
(b) dependent student.

(2) An applicant’s class is defined at their first point of entry to an approved
post leaving certificate course or an approved higher education course or at
their point of re-entry to such an approved course and will continue to apply
for the duration of their studies.

(5) “Re-entry”, for the purposes of this Scheme, means a mature student
entering an approved course following a break in studies of at least three years,
having previously attended an approved course.

LouDon

Hi,
I'm in a similar situation to "dath". I have been living independently, Im over 23 etc., but as I haven't taken a three year break, only one year, it seems as though I'm gonna have to be assessed on my parents income. However I have heard that it might still be possible to be assessed independently if you've never availed of a grant prior to this as you're technically not changing "classes"?. Is there any truth in this or just another rumour? anyone know for sure??thanks!

dath

LouDon wrote: »

Hi,
I'm in a similar situation to "dath". I have been living independently, Im over 23 etc., but as I haven't taken a three year break, only one year, it seems as though I'm gonna have to be assessed on my parents income. However I have heard that it might still be possible to be assessed independently if you've never availed of a grant prior to this as you're technically not changing "classes"?. Is there any truth in this or just another rumour? anyone know for sure??thanks!

I don't know about that one but you may be on to something.

I have a feeling that your class may be determined on the the first time you attend a course and not when you first apply for a grant. The CDVEC office only opens to the public up until 12:30 so I'll call them in the morning and see if your theory carries any weight with them

Annasopra

LouDon wrote: »

Hi,
I'm in a similar situation to "dath". I have been living independently, Im over 23 etc., but as I haven't taken a three year break, only one year, it seems as though I'm gonna have to be assessed on my parents income. However I have heard that it might still be possible to be assessed independently if you've never availed of a grant prior to this as you're technically not changing "classes"?. Is there any truth in this or just another rumour? anyone know for sure??thanks!

I'm almost certain this is not true but Icould be wrong. Your class is determined at the point of entry and reentry. If you were in the class of dependent mature student at the point of entry I don't think it actually matters that you didn't apply for a grant.

annacanna

bit of an update on my situation
i rang the council and was told that since im not applying for a grant this year for my plc course (il be recieving vtos allowance) that i will be assesed when i actually apply for a grant for college next year

dath did you find out more info about your situation?

dath

annacanna wrote: »

bit of an update on my situation
i rang the council and was told that since im not applying for a grant this year for my plc course (il be recieving vtos allowance) that i will be assesed when i actually apply for a grant for college next year

dath did you find out more info about your situation?

I spoke to a very nice, helpful woman in the CDVEC office last week.

She said that the new rule is that I would have to be assessed on my parents income and thus would not qualify for a grant.

She did say that I was the first person she had come across in this situation and that it did seem very unfair.

She took a lot of notes about my situation and said she would talk to her supervisor and see what she can do for me.

I don't think I would be covered by the vtos scheme as I'm doing a level 8 course.

I have been in contact with local councilors and TD but the best they could do was to find out what I had already been told. Again, they were very nice and helpful but it seems there is nothing they can do.

If anybody has any more advice, I would love to hear it.

mbuble

I have a similar thing going on. When I applied in my first year I was told to just apply as a dependent and I could change it the following year. The following year there was no way they would do it for me. This year with my parents ncome I will be over? Do you think they will penalise me or will they take into account that I do not have anything to do with my parents?
I need the 100% grant as I am gona struggle as is. It's frustrating why are they assessing me on my parents as if I am living at home. Do they ever take these things into consideration?
I was also going to ring a TD. Seems unbelievable that I am 38 and being assessed on my parents. The reason I couldn't go as an independent to start with was because I didn't have any bills, all in landlords name....I really regret not fighting it now.
Also tried to tell them my parents won't give me their information, but their attitude was that it's not their problem and don't apply then if you can't

dath

mbuble wrote: »

I have a similar thing going on. When I applied in my first year I was told to just apply as a dependent and I could change it the following year. The following year there was no way they would do it for me. This year I have rent supplement to add to my (and my parents) income and if I do I will be over by 600e? Do you think they will penalise me on this, or will they take into account that I do not have anything to do with my parents?
I need the 100% grant as I am gona struggle as is. I am so frustrated I feel like not including the supplement...why should my rent go against me when they clearly are assessing me on my parents as if I am living at home. Do they ever take these things into consideration?
I'm sitting here with my application and don't know what to do. Was also going to ring a TD. Seems unbelievable that I am in my late 30's and being assessed on my parents'. The reason I couldn't go as an independent to start with was because I didn't have any bills, all in landlords name....I really regret not fighting it now.
Also tried to tell them my parents won't give me their information, but their attitude was that it's not their problem and don't apply then if you can't

what body are you applying to?

I would try and go into the office and talk to them. Phone and email are a waste of time but I've found the staff in the City of Dublin VEC help in any way they can when you are face to face

mbuble

I'm Galway VEC... ok thanks I'll ring them:)