Pupil Teacher Ratio May Increase......Again

doc_17

Looks like the PTR is going to go up in the Budget if the Dept of Ed get their way....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0804/1224301823037.html

Who needs Chemistry, Physics and Applied Maths anyway?

rainbowtrout

Plan to increase school class sizes to save €75m

SEÁN FLYNN, Education Editor

CHANGES TO the pupil-teacher ratio which would mean larger classes in primary and second-level schools have been proposed by the Department of Education.

The department has indicated to Government that increasing the number of children in a classroom is the most effective means of achieving sizeable savings in the education budget. It says that annual economies of at least €75 million can be achieved by such a move.

The proposal – set to be a key part of the next budget – would mean more than 1,100 teaching posts left unfilled at primary and second level. It is certain to elicit a furious response from the teacher unions and it will also concern parents.

Bigger class sizes would also have serious implications for students in teacher training, making it even more difficult to secure teaching posts. It is understood the department also favours a rationalisation of teacher training.

While there is no plan to close any of the five State-funded teacher-training colleges, it says the current situation, where 21 colleges are providing 42 courses, cannot continue. The department is expected to demand that some courses be merged.

The proposals for primary schools include a one-point increase in the staffing schedule, with one teacher for every 28 pupils; it is now one to 27. This could potentially mean the loss of 350 posts. The cost to the taxpayer of each of these jobs is €60,000, including pensions etc, yielding savings of €21 million, according to the department.

Plans for second-level schools include a single point increase in the staffing schedule, with one teacher for every 20 pupils. It is now one to 19, except in fee-paying schools where it is already one to 20. This could translate into a potential loss of 850 teaching posts. The cost of each of these jobs is €64,000, yielding savings of €54 million, according to the department.

Under the terms of the EU-IMF agreement the unions have to accept increases in class size if equivalent savings cannot be achieved on payroll. The proposal echoes that in the McCarthy report which recommended class sizes of 29 or more.

Irish primary schools already have the second-highest average class size in the EU. Last year department figures revealed that more than 106,000 pupils are in classes of 30 or more while some 8,000 are being educated in classes of 35 or more.

The problem of overcrowding is particularly acute in the Dublin commuter counties – Carlow, Kilkenny, Meath, Laois, Wicklow and Kildare.

Three years ago more than 100,000 people attended protests held by teachers’ union the Irish National Teachers’ Organisation.

A decade ago Fianna Fáil promised to reduce class sizes for under-nines to below 20, in line with international norms.

So more jobs lost, just when we thought there might be a few hours knocking around from the rush of retirements that might happen before February.

Just on February retirements, I got a letter from my VEC along with my payslip last week that went along the lines of 'we are expecting a lot of people to retire from public service before February, if you are one of these people you must give us 3 months written notice, and once you have indicated that you are going to retire, there is no going back'

Trotter

...And remember! Literacy standards must rise! Knowledge economy!! Maths and Science are the future!

This is supposed to be a 'pro children' government? Give me a break..
:mad:

linguist

Can I urge a little well-advised caution?

Firstly, if they have to save money and payroll amounts for 75pc give or take of education spending, it's pretty obvious that increasing the pupil teacher ratio will be proposed by the officials.

But this is the silly season and it's exactly the time when a scare story like this will be put out, the effect of which is to instill terror in teachers and soften us up to accept something less draconian.

We need to listen to the Minister here. He has clearly said that he favours selective cuts to under-performing or obsolete 'programmes' as opposed to straight across the board cuts to headline items. Also, as the article states, the search is ongoing to achieve these savings in an alternative manner.

Here's an idea that's been going through my head. If they could draw a distinction between fee paying and non fee paying schools a couple of years ago, they could always do that again. But I've been thinking that they could even distinguish between DEIS and non-DEIS schools and leave a more favourable ratio in place in the former. This is a Labour minister after all, and the unions do sometimes hang themselves by claiming to be interested in disadvantaged kids etc... whilst defending their members interests. The Minister could try to call their bluff on that one.

Either way, I wouldn't lose sleep over the December budget in the month of August!

E.T.

When are the government (or any journalist interested in education) going to publish the true pupil- teacher ratios?

How can they continue to get away with counting LS/Resource Teachers etc in the ratio? Most schools I know locally have at least one class of 30+ and I've heard of classes up to 40 in the last few years if the school is stuck just under the number for a new teacher.

dambarude

Brilliant, if it happens it will coincide with the time I graduate. What's the next piece of good news I'll hear, I wonder? New entrants' salary has been cut by a huge %, but I needn't worry about that now since I won't get next nor near it anyway.

Cat Melodeon

Under the terms of the EU-IMF agreement the unions have to accept increases in class size if equivalent savings cannot be achieved on payroll.

Irish primary schools already have the second-highest average class size in the EU.

Whereas prices in Ireland are indeed 15% higher than in France, the single teacher above enjoys 75% more take-home pay. In Finland, prices are just 2% below Irish prices but an Irish teacher enjoys a wage that is 54% higher than a Finnish counterpart. http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

Listening to Pat King from ASTI on the radio this morning, I was wondering just how he cannot see any connection between the above points. Newly qualified teachers may have to accept lower pay conditions than their counterparts two years ago, but still the salaries paid to teachers are overinflated. There needs to be a drastic reduction in the payroll if more teachers are to be employed or if other resources are to avoid cuts. European benchmarking makes sense. I understand no one wants to see their income cut, but with tightly restricted budgets, that is the only way to sustain the education system.

jonseyblub

I wish when comparing Irish salaries with other countries the Ronan Lyons blog post was not regurgitated each time. Selective statistics at its best. Just read through the comments for starters and one of the commenters who obviously is more knowledgable about the facts than me really took him to task about them.

E.T.

Absolutely agree with you jonseyblub, that article has been torn apart many times at this stage but it's still used all the time out of pure laziness.

doc_17

Lots of information here.......

http://www.oecd.org/document/55/0,3746,en_2649_37455_46349815_1_1_1_37455,00.html


In some stats it looks like teachers here have it handy while in others it looks like we are value for money.

To sum up (my interpretation) what the data is saying it seems to suggest that we have less days/weeks working but to compensate we have more students, class contact time and longer hours. The stats on PTR are almost impossible to read...in one it suggests that second level schools have PTR ratio of 5:1!!

sheehyskeff

Usual populist, hysterical, rabble rousing headline from RTE -

"The Dept of Education is planning to increase class size because it cannot cut teachers' pay or conditions under the Croke Park Agreement." :rolleyes:

Who actually gets paid to write such sensationalist drivel (and dress it up as "quality" journalism?)



"Increasing class sizes would mean schools could lose up to 1,200 teaching posts.These permanent teachers would not lose their jobs but would be redeployed to schools with increasing enrolment numbers that need extra teachers"


Don't anyone mention the TWTs out there who simply won't have a job when this happens and as for NQTs .... God love them.


Why persist in feeding the general public this claptrap when the dogs on the street know that the birthrate exploded over the last few years and education is going to cost more as a result?

spurious

Please don't feed the trolls.

Scruff

That is fantastic moderating, where is the button to report a moderator?

I wasnt trolling. I posted a comment that a teacher proposed to me as an possible alternative to increasing class sizes and cutting jobs. A discussion ensued in which what i said was challenged so i responded with counter arguments. A personal insult was leveled a me by someone who disagreed me instead of a being able to formulate a counter argument. So instead of a ban for that person for a personal insults you go and delete the whole exchange and call me a troll. Do you attempt to stifle such discussion in your educational institutions?
Maybe i should have remebered some critisism of the educational systemsn before i bothered posting that says your hear to learn what we tell you and not to think. It would appear the same holds true here.

so at the end of the day more teching jobs gone and no room for discussion of alternative ideas to saving money and jobs. if i didnt have so many friends and family that were teachers or SNAs i wouldnt care what happens as long as the government saves money. i'll consign my discussions to them and not annonyous people on the interweb who get so upset when challanged and can delelte conversation they dont agree with.

This will probably be deleted too to prove my point. So i'll take a screenshot for posterity

whiteandlight

Response received from support.

I agree with DOC. The OECD report doesn't always compare like with like. While I agree we are in an economic crisis the people telling teacher to sod off abroad etc should be careful, like junior doctors we are haemorrhaging young highly qualified teachers like many sectors of the public/private sectors and ultimately it is bad for our economy and of huge benefit to the education systems abroad.

Some explanations for high teachers salaries here (Please note contrary to popular opinion we are not the highest earning teachers in the OECD, in 2007 we were 5th highest and there have been paycuts since).

1. One of the highest amount of pupils per class in the OECD, even before the last increase and worse again if the proposed increase happens.
2. One of the highest number of teaching contact hours per year (Yes despite our long summer)
3. For a knowledge economy even in 2007 we were only spending the OECD average on education. (This is also part of the reason why teachers salary makes up circa 80% of the education budget. If we spent more then it wouldnt be).

I agree that the salaries across Ireland went a little nuts in the bubble but in reality we have not been spending enough on education for too long and it is coming back to haunt us. The simple reality is that you cannot compare a class of 36 from the 80s to a class of 36 today. In that class of 36 today you are likely to have at least 4-5 with pretty severe special needs and these children have already lost much of their support. With that many students in the class education suffers.