Faith and Psychology

GAAman

Are they mutually exclusive?

Bit of a background, i just finished an undergrad in psychology and one thing i noticed is that out of the 18 subjects over the three years all of the lecturers bar one did not have any faith. Some of them spoke of religion in almost derisory terms, with only one of the lecturers having religious faith.

Is this a common thing in psychology or was there a case of sample bias

I should include myself, i do have faith. How about you?

sambuka41

Thats interesting, during my degree we actually studied the Philosophy of Religion, but that was an academic examination of philosophers theories on the existence of god. But I would have no idea if the lecturer believed herself?

I don't think they need to be mutually exclusive, but as you know psychology is a science and generally people who had studied science are looking for proof, for everything!!!!!! As a result I would say a lot don't have faith (in the believing in god sense of the word)

But I would be surprised if any psychologist has a problem with people praying. I believe that can be a very therapeutic process, taking time to think about your problems, verbalize them, helps with identifying solutions. (I dont believe in god though, so guess I have no faith;))

locked_out

The thread title is a bit rich. Psychology is more akin to a cult, than actual science: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html

Odysseus

OP my supervisor and a former lecturer of mine is a priest, in fact I know a few priests who trained as psychoanalysts, where god does not exist. I often wondered how they dealwith the conflict, but clearly they do.

Odysseus

locked_out wrote: »

The thread title is a bit rich. Psychology is more akin to a cult, than actual science: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html

It's always interesting when poster with a very low post count; posts anti-psych stuff here. If you came here to troll you may find your user name reflects your position here. However, if you are here to contribute you are welcome.

WesternNight

I know that one of my lecturers is an atheist, but I can't say I've ever asked any of them, so I don't know about the others. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the majority were atheist, given the scientific nature of psychology. It can lend to the application of critical thinking to all areas of life.

CiaranMT

locked_out wrote: »

The thread title is a bit rich. Psychology is more akin to a cult, than actual science: http://www.arachnoid.com/psychology/index.html

Quality link. :pac:

Heading into my 4th year now OP, and it's not something that generally comes up in lecture. I would wager, though, that most of my year are agnostic. A few of the girls and one lad are quite religious though, one girl being a creationism believer () and the guy being a pioneer. (I'm atheist myself)

TrollHammaren

One of the things we discussed during our undergrad is the concept of free will. and it seems seriously at odds with the concept of a god. I'll have more on this later when I get a chance to discuss it further!

krd

Odysseus wrote: »

OP my supervisor and a former lecturer of mine is a priest, in fact I know a few priests who trained as psychoanalysts, where god does not exist. I often wondered how they dealwith the conflict, but clearly they do.

A lot of priest do not actually believe in god. At least I've heard people quoting surveys where priest have claimed to be unbelievers.

Seminarians usually have a crisis of faith when they get deep into studying the literature and discover how much is contradictory.

You may ask, if a priest comes to the belief that there is no god, and most of their church is a nonsensical superstition, why would they stay. And there are lots of very good answers to that question.

Pope Bernard, may be a unbeliever. He may believe the church is a necessary illusion to guard against nihilism. Which is the worst world: The world of the Third Reich - with its' certainties. Or the world of the Catholic Church. Where everything is really fuzzy and ,most of the time, harmless.

I've read an essay of Bernard's from the 80s, where he argues the ideas of Freud and Nietzsche ultimately lead to things like the holocaust and the gulags. Freud and Nietzsche may be telling the truth. But if it's a truth that might destroy us, what value is it to us.

Bernard may be believes in a form of dishonest benign nihilism.

krd

Now that I think about it.

I know in the US there are "rehabilation"/ psychiatric facilities where all the staff are religious. They combine religion with the therapy.

Torturers employ psychologists to be more effective in their torture. Why wouldn't the religious do the same.

GAAman

Odysseus wrote: »

OP my supervisor and a former lecturer of mine is a priest, in fact I know a few priests who trained as psychoanalysts, where god does not exist. I often wondered how they dealwith the conflict, but clearly they do.

I was surprised with this and then i recalled a christian brother i knew who was a psychoanalyst, this was years before i started studying psychology so i never put it together. I am guessing by your post that the subject of the conflict has never come up?

sambuka41 wrote: »

Thats interesting, during my degree we actually studied the Philosophy of Religion, but that was an academic examination of philosophers theories on the existence of god. But I would have no idea if the lecturer believed herself?

WesternNight wrote: »

I know that one of my lecturers is an atheist, but I can't say I've ever asked any of them, so I don't know about the others. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the majority were atheist, given the scientific nature of psychology. It can lend to the application of critical thinking to all areas of life.

To answer both of these, the subject came up in different ways. In health psychology we looked at the placebo effect, and part of the lecture looked at the religious aspect, with lourdes as an example. Another module was biopsychology and the topic of evolution came up with the lecturer all but ridiculing people who were religious. Lastly (that i can recall right now) in the peace and conflict studies module the lecturer actually said of the troubles in the north, "I personally believe that religion is a load of ****"

Odysseus

krd wrote: »

Now that I think about it.

I know in the US there are "rehabilation"/ psychiatric facilities where all the staff are religious. They combine religion with the therapy.

Torturers employ psychologists to be more effective in their torture. Why wouldn't the religious do the same.

Fcukers do it here, they are often to be found trying to get my clients in their detox unit, with no counsellors, psychologists, Doctors, etc. Cold turkey and praying is the cure.

Someine with die in one of these places one day.

TrollHammaren

Odysseus wrote: »

Fcukers do it here, they are often to be found trying to get my clients in their detox unit, with no counsellors, psychologists, Doctors, etc. Cold turkey and praying is the cure.

Someine with die in one of these places one day.

You hit a nerve there, man. I used to be pretty religious in my late teens (I'm very much an atheist now, and completely anti-religion, but I don't shove it down people's throats) - I won't name the religion now, but it was a pretty right-wing Christian sect. Although the church doesn't officially sanction it, quite a few of the people in the church spoke very highly of aversion therapy as a "cure" for homosexuality. It makes me sick.

Sorry to stray off topic; that just popped into my head when you said it.

Odysseus

GAAman wrote: »

I was surprised with this and then i recalled a christian brother i knew who was a psychoanalyst, this was years before i started studying psychology so i never put it together. I am guessing by your post that the subject of the conflict has never come up?

No I have only been with him about 9mths, but I'm sure it will at some stage.

krd

Odysseus wrote: »

Fcukers do it here, they are often to be found trying to get my clients in their detox unit, with no counsellors, psychologists, Doctors, etc. Cold turkey and praying is the cure.

I'm really surprised to hear that. That's actually really dangerous.

Are they receiving state funds? I've heard of a few weird detox places over the years.

Someine with die in one of these places one day.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did.


A particular case I know of in the US. I don't want to post a link to the place - as it someone I know who's been there, I don't want their details up so they or someone we both know sees it.

It wouldn't tell you much about the place anyway - the website is vague enough - they don't go into any detail. It's a private church run psychiatric/rehabilitation institution. They have doctors, nurses, counsellors, restraints etc. It's "market" is for the troubled children of wealthy Catholics. There was a time if you were a troublesome teenager born into a wealthy family, the worst you'd get would be getting booked into a boarding school - which to all intents and purposes would be a young offenders institute in all but name. Now you can send your kids to a psychiatric facility where for a fee they can be "rehabilitated". Some of the methods used in their therapy are very extreme. I would like to find out what it is they're doing - it sounds a lot like what happens to Winston Smith in !984. It just sounds nearly too weird to describe. The person I know who had been put through it. As far I know, they didn't have religion rammed down their throat - but some very weird stuff about how they should behave and think. I think they were damaged by the experience.

There are also these places in US - very underground - where they try to "fix" gay teenagers through these church run camps. It's very underground because so many of these teens go on to commit suicide after being through them.

There is also this focus on "rehabilitating" young people. It's not about getting them off alcohol or drugs. It's more about taking a weird teenager and making them into a "normal" person. I don't think it works - I think it causes the absolute opposite to happen.

CiaranMT

krd wrote: »

I'm really surprised to hear that. That's actually really dangerous.

Are they receiving state funds? I've heard of a few weird detox places over the years.



I wouldn't be surprised if they did.


A particular case I know of in the US. I don't want to post a link to the place - as it someone I know who's been there, I don't want their details up so they or someone we both know sees it.

It wouldn't tell you much about the place anyway - the website is vague enough - they don't go into any detail. It's a private church run psychiatric/rehabilitation institution. They have doctors, nurses, counsellors, restraints etc. It's "market" is for the troubled children of wealthy Catholics. There was a time if you were a troublesome teenager born into a wealthy family, the worst you'd get would be getting booked into a boarding school - which to all intents and purposes would be a young offenders institute in all but name. Now you can send your kids to a psychiatric facility where for a fee they can be "rehabilitated". Some of the methods used in their therapy are very extreme. I would like to find out what it is they're doing - it sounds a lot like what happens to Winston Smith in !984. It just sounds nearly too weird to describe. The person I know who had been put through it. As far I know, they didn't have religion rammed down their throat - but some very weird stuff about how they should behave and think. I think they were damaged by the experience.

There are also these places in US - very underground - where they try to "fix" gay teenagers through these church run camps. It's very underground because so many of these teens go on to commit suicide after being through them.

There is also this focus on "rehabilitating" young people. It's not about getting them off alcohol or drugs. It's more about taking a weird teenager and making them into a "normal" person. I don't think it works - I think it causes the absolute opposite to happen.

No good without links!

Jessibelle

I have faith... of a sort, it's more in a something than a god if that makes sense? Having studied Philosophy and getting into the whole 'what is consciousness' circular argument, I like to think that it's more than a series of random happy accidents that make us and other animals more than the sum of our component parts. I will ask for prayers on others behalf without feeling hypocritical but would feel odd asking for them for myself directly, even though I think that prayers, same as meditations etc are means of focusing the mind, or alleviating the stresses by sharing the problem.
With all that said, I'm a scientist true and true, and find it very difficult to believe in something if it lacks proof, so yes I do have a conflict at times. I tend to keep the two very separate, with the scientist/logician controlling my professional life, and the two intermingling a little more in my personal. I have to say though the idea of untrained people using faith of any creed alone to treat people in need of professional help, or to 'cure' perfectly natural states is abhorrent to me.

TrollHammaren

krd wrote: »

I'm really surprised to hear that. That's actually really dangerous.

Are they receiving state funds? I've heard of a few weird detox places over the years.



I wouldn't be surprised if they did.


A particular case I know of in the US. I don't want to post a link to the place - as it someone I know who's been there, I don't want their details up so they or someone we both know sees it.

It wouldn't tell you much about the place anyway - the website is vague enough - they don't go into any detail. It's a private church run psychiatric/rehabilitation institution. They have doctors, nurses, counsellors, restraints etc. It's "market" is for the troubled children of wealthy Catholics. There was a time if you were a troublesome teenager born into a wealthy family, the worst you'd get would be getting booked into a boarding school - which to all intents and purposes would be a young offenders institute in all but name. Now you can send your kids to a psychiatric facility where for a fee they can be "rehabilitated". Some of the methods used in their therapy are very extreme. I would like to find out what it is they're doing - it sounds a lot like what happens to Winston Smith in !984. It just sounds nearly too weird to describe. The person I know who had been put through it. As far I know, they didn't have religion rammed down their throat - but some very weird stuff about how they should behave and think. I think they were damaged by the experience.

There are also these places in US - very underground - where they try to "fix" gay teenagers through these church run camps. It's very underground because so many of these teens go on to commit suicide after being through them.

There is also this focus on "rehabilitating" young people. It's not about getting them off alcohol or drugs. It's more about taking a weird teenager and making them into a "normal" person. I don't think it works - I think it causes the absolute opposite to happen.

We're all probably well aware of the well-known Scientology cases in the US. I won't name the victims in case someone googles them; pictures of their corpses were released on the internet, which I object to because the victims could not have consented to this. A quick google/wikipedia search will lead you to the cases I'm talking about.

The Black Oil

In the series The Shield, a gay police officer undergoes some sort of 'conversion therapy', though if memory serves, I don't think they depict how it's done. It was the first time I'd heard of this approach, seems that there are a few 'brands' of it.

dutch1

My girlfriend is a doctor of clinical pyschology & we've had this discussion before. I would consider myself a catholic but not a practising catholic as I dont go to mass or pray or anything like that but I am aware of my faith (if that makes sense !).

I kind of came to a conclusion that faith is more of a spiritual thing & stories that are depicted in the bible can be taken up by some people as 100% fact or taken with a couple of grains of salt (as I do ) I believe they are more stories or fables to invoke good morals in people.

My GF would be the same I reckon. she questions the whole god thing. She would be in with the 'no faith' category but wouldnt call herself an atheist or anythin like that & I dont see why you should have to fall into either group. Whats the advantage ?

WesternNight

dutch1 wrote: »

My GF would be the same I reckon. she questions the whole god thing. She would be in with the 'no faith' category but wouldnt call herself an atheist or anythin like that & I dont see why you should have to fall into either group. Whats the advantage ?

No-one's saying you have to label yourself as one or other. If you were to label yourselves, then agnostic might fit best, but no-one's forcing you to pick one. Generally either people believe that there's a supernatural god or they don't believe there's a supernatural god. And some acknowledge the fact that they don't know either way (but may lean towards one way or the other.) And for some people it's a complete non-issue.

The OP was just wondering whether there's a link between religious faith (or lack thereof) and the psychology profession/education.

dutch1

I probably wondered off a wee bit there.
I would say that pyschology makes you question a lot of things, many students might go into study with faith and come out the other end questioning it. I reckon your a firm believer of faith or not. If your in between you can be swayed either way by a good argument. Everyone has a different meaning of faith and how they recieve it (or not)

krd

CiaranMT wrote: »

No good without links!

I'm not going to post a link to the facility. The US has scores of these places and slight variations on the theme.

You can take a look at this place http://www.cinnamonhills.com/

Just a teen rehab I picked at random. You have to ask yourself what they're doing there.

One thing is certain. That once young people are committed to these facilities, they do not have an option of refusing therapy.

An if you look at the website, you'll see one of the "illnesses" they treat is attitude problems.

I've known several people who've been put through these places. There's no real choice in refusing any of the therapy. And they don't let you out until they're satisfied you've come around to seeing and accepting the world as they do. They beak you down and then rebuild you.

TrollHammaren

krd wrote: »

One thing is certain. That once young people are committed to these facilities, they do not have an option of refusing therapy.

An if you look at the website, you'll see one of the "illnesses" they treat is attitude problems.

Did you see that Louis Theraux episode where he goes to the facility for paedophile offenders? One of the things that seriously píssed me off about that episode was that one of the offenders went to see the clinical psychologist, who was a condescending fúck who gave him an awful time. The offender got angry and walked out in protest, but later on was pretty much forced to apologise, because (as far as I can remember) the treatment with the clinical psychologist was one of the conditions for eventual release.

The whole idea of "treating" and attitude problem sickens me. I was told I had an "attitude problem" as a child because I was unwilling to participate in "religion class" which should have been named "Roman Catholic Indoctrination".

krd

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Did you see that Louis Theraux episode where he goes to the facility for paedophile offenders? One of the things that seriously píssed me off about that episode was that one of the offenders went to see the clinical psychologist, who was a condescending fúck who gave him an awful time. The offender got angry and walked out in protest, but later on was pretty much forced to apologise, because (as far as I can remember) the treatment with the clinical psychologist was one of the conditions for eventual release.

Well it is coercing people into "treatment". Some of the things I've heard about the youth "rehabs". The kids are told they have to take anti-psychotics - or they won't be released. And also they have partake in the counselling and group therapy, and respond favourably or they won't be released. Now. What I've heard of the counselling and group therapy. Some of it sounded very very extreme. Really horrible stuff. Violating.

The whole idea of "treating" and attitude problem sickens me. I was told I had an "attitude problem" as a child because I was unwilling to participate in "religion class" which should have been named "Roman Catholic Indoctrination".

I think "attitude" problems is the biggest slice of the business in US teen rehabs. There may in fact be few to none kids in these places with genuine substance abuse problems.

They may in fact be there to be habilitated for someone else's ends.

Now, when religion comes into - that is another cruel twist. Imagine using drugs and "therapy" on a kid who has just stopped believing in god. Tormenting them until the convert back to the love of Jesus Christ.