Blue Flame Hellions...

godspal

...what is the correct response?

After I watched about 5 matches from MLG Anaheim. The question arises, how does Zerg deal with Blue Flame?
Roaches does seem like the correct response, but in the DonReagu v TLO group matches we can see the weaknesses of Roach build against Factory heavy Terran (even though TLO lost both his matches, there was no fluidity in his play, which can be blamed on coming back from injury.)
In the Boxer v Idra games a quick transition to heavy Marine just seems to overwhelm the zerg if they stick with standard play.

Now these are the two deviations I have seen so far, and are relatively easy to perform, so what's zerg to do?
And by the end of this week I am guessing blue flame Hellions will have become standard in all leagues.

Tenger

godspal wrote: »

...what is the correct response?

After I watched about 5 matches from MLG Anaheim. The question arises, how does Zerg deal with Blue Flame? ................

And by the end of this week I am guessing blue flame Hellions will have become standard in all leagues.

Can't really answer that question but I see why you may need to figure it out.....


Just watched TotalBiscuits latest laddering video from yesterday and he postulates the same thing.

Husky has a match on youtube of QXC vs Hache where QXC mixes lots of helions into the marine/tank/viking mix very succesfully.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDbstAhsmks

godspal

@Tenger I don't think sub-par terran would be able to give advice to a zerg about blue flame hellions.
And posting a TvT match doesn't exactly help.

The only things I considered that could work would be a third queen to block ramps and a supporting Spine on the nat.
Or possibly a roach wall with a Spine. The issue with both of these is you are going to have to pull drones off mining. Which is maybe 10-20 seconds of no mining.
A counter intuitive build could be 14 gas 14 pool, drone to 16, pull drones off @100 gas. Quick double expand and mass lings, while you may lose some drones you could afford this due to having such a quick third. But this is a bit all-in-ish.

Tenger

godspal wrote: »

@Tenger I don't think sub-par terran would be able to give advice to a zerg about blue flame hellions.
And posting a TvT match doesn't exactly help.

I completely agree.
I wasn't trying to answer the question, but to use this thread to comment on the possible new thinking in the meta-game.
Can't really answer that question but I see why you may need to figure it out.....

Previously a counter to blue flame wasn't essential, the recent developments/trend may now mean a zerg needs to be open to this possibilty.


Sub Par!!!! So that means I may reach 'par' some day!!

godspal

Total Biscuit is a gold Terran. He was gold last season, and he seems to have remained gold. There is a reason why his channel is called: "I suck at Starcraft."

saini

Maybe some sort of roach infestor play as infestor can fungal marines hellions and neural parasite tanks or thors if the go mech, roaches could be used as a meat shield later game and early game to allow you the time to tech up to infestor?

Funky

I don't play zerg but I was thinking just 4 or 5 roaches with no speed, 2 spines at natural and 1 in your main would be enough with good control to delay until mutas. Dunno if that's too much of an investment to work into a standard build but I wouldn't have thought so.

godspal

Hellions come in packs of 4 usually so that's 400 mins.
And for the defence it is 300 mins on the spines. 400 mins + 100 gas on the roaches. Not exactly cost effective in the early game. Its also 7 larva.

EDIT: Maybe it comes down to building placement.
An evo behind the mineral line at the nat. And a second evo chamber in front of the gas geyser at the nat, and a single spine supported by 3 roaches. If you think the hellions are going to zoom into your main, just block the ramp.

Funky

Sure it's more costly than the hellions but does it really put you at a significant disadvantage in exchange for safety from instant losing. I think that without decent dmg done from the hellions that you'd still be able to pull ahead economically. The problem is scouting really to know that you're not overreacting but you might be able to find a certain timing like with Warp Gate rushes that you know that you haven't seen them try expand and still haven't a definite scout that it's time to spend money on safety.

Also you can slack off on ling production which frees some larva/minerals. A couple of small packs waiting at places like ramps to sandwich the hellions could work. I think this new build can be figured out, it's just that it's suddenly so popular.

BlitzKrieg

Hellions come in packs of 4 usually so that's 400 mins.
And for the defence it is 300 mins on the spines. 400 mins + 100 gas on the roaches. Not exactly cost effective in the early game. Its also 7 larva.

You are leaving out the cost of upgrading the hellions to blue flame

and the impact they'll have on the rest of a terrains build. Going for blue flame hellions and failing will leave you somewhat open for a fast counter.

I mean if a terrain goes blue flame hellions that means he wont have siege mode on his small number of siege tanks if he went with them and (depending on map) that could open his natural to harrasment (especially by roaches if he hasnt put the money into teching infantry).

UnholyGregor

If i scout terran opening with gas, i go 15hatch, 15pool, and get gas and roach waren immediately

Once roach warren finishes, make 3 or 4 roaches. If you're confident that terran isnt gonna do a hellion runby, push up his ramp with the roaches. Hel have to pull scvs and you can kill a **** load auto repairing his wall. Once he has a bunker full of marines, or a marauder or tank behind a wall, just chill in his nat with the roaches. This will delay his expo for years. While this is going on, power drones like theres no tommorow, and go lair into mutas asap.
After the roach push, the terrans timings are gonna be throw all over the place, and you can normally do significant damage with the mutas. Time is of the esscence, once you get 5 mutas, go straight for his scv's.
get speed and banelings along the way. but the trick is to pump drones like a madman after your roaches pop, as the terran cant do **** to pressure you, as his hellions will be so useless.

The mutas are usually gonna catch the terran off guard, and do alot of damage. i follow this up with a fast (ish) 3rd, and standard ling bane muta. normally, the terran will be forced into a2base all in, unless he has godlike missle turret timings, so i dont go overboard on mutas, stick around 12-16, and go for fast-ish infestors

NB: on big maps, dont be agressive with the roaches, because the terran can runby with hellions, while your roaches are in the middle of the map, and toast a **** load of drones.

NNB: after you make 3-5 roaches, nothing but drones. and fast lair (around 40 supply) take all gasses while going lair, and fast mutas.

Manuva

You can assume that every terran is going to be opening with reactored hellion for the next month so just blind baneling bust every game and collect your ladder points

godspal

Good point.

pixelburp

Yup pretty much every Terran opponent I've played since the start of Season 3 have gone with some degree of mass Hellion - ranging from the mild to the utterly insane (in one game, a lack of scouting didn't spot approx. 15-20 hellions barrel into my base, toasting everything. I was just blindly teching up so was my own fault)

These days I just assume some will get through & try and disaster-manage;the Terrans seem happy to suicide the units, rather than kite the back of my base(s). So I sigh, move the drones off the line and just trap the hellions as best as possible. I find them more a nuisance than a real threat?

godspal

Well this is not the best example of how this works. But if a masters player would possibly perfect this, this would become the standard way of beating off blue flame.

Tenger

Manuva wrote: »

You can assume that every terran is going to be opening with reactored hellion for the next month so just blind baneling bust every game and collect your ladder points

It wil be interesting to see how this upper league meta games filters down to us sub-par players!

Dustaz

Tenger wrote: »

It wil be interesting to see how this upper league meta games filters down to us sub-par players!

Don't worry, theyll just watch the gsl/iem/dreamhack and get the solution there, just like us :P

freepower

UnholyGregor wrote: »

If i scout terran opening with gas, i go 15hatch, 15pool, and get gas and roach waren immediately

Once roach warren finishes, make 3 or 4 roaches. If you're confident that terran isnt gonna do a hellion runby, push up his ramp with the roaches. Hel have to pull scvs and you can kill a **** load auto repairing his wall. Once he has a bunker full of marines, or a marauder or tank behind a wall, just chill in his nat with the roaches. This will delay his expo for years. While this is going on, power drones like theres no tommorow, and go lair into mutas asap.
After the roach push, the terrans timings are gonna be throw all over the place, and you can normally do significant damage with the mutas. Time is of the esscence, once you get 5 mutas, go straight for his scv's.
get speed and banelings along the way. but the trick is to pump drones like a madman after your roaches pop, as the terran cant do **** to pressure you, as his hellions will be so useless.

The mutas are usually gonna catch the terran off guard, and do alot of damage. i follow this up with a fast (ish) 3rd, and standard ling bane muta. normally, the terran will be forced into a2base all in, unless he has godlike missle turret timings, so i dont go overboard on mutas, stick around 12-16, and go for fast-ish infestors

NB: on big maps, dont be agressive with the roaches, because the terran can runby with hellions, while your roaches are in the middle of the map, and toast a **** load of drones.

NNB: after you make 3-5 roaches, nothing but drones. and fast lair (around 40 supply) take all gasses while going lair, and fast mutas.

It's good to see you taking my advice from the LAN. ^_^

Personally every time I see 5 roaches on an unprepared terran's ramp I feel happy inside!

UnholyGregor

dunno, you kind of roach all in, which is useless vs wall offs with tanks. but yeah, lings are okay v hellions until he gets blueflame, then its horrifically inneficient.