Being in school and 18-supervison

Chuchoter

Just wondering, does anyone know the legalities around the supervision of 18 year olds who are still in secondary school? I don't mean leaving the building, I mean sitting out a class and studying in a lunch hall or library? Are they legally obliged to have a teacher sit with me?

Salty

If you're a student in the school then yes, because the school is responsible for you.

Unregistered.

_meehan_ wrote: »

If you're a student in the school then yes, because the school is responsible for you.

I think what the OP is suggesting is that at 18, are you not responsible for yourself.

PictureFrame

Chuchoter wrote: »

Just wondering, does anyone know the legalities around the supervision of 18 year olds who are still in secondary school? I don't mean leaving the building, I mean sitting out a class and studying in a lunch hall or library? Are they legally obliged to have a teacher sit with me?

Are you refering to like sitting out of a class instead of partaking in one etc?. I know two of my friends are going for Med next year and only wanted to do Biology, Chemistry and Spanish (their language). The school told them they'd have to pick an option in the 4th block of subjects (Geography/Technology/Business/Art), so what they did was sit at the back of the classroom for 2 weeks and not partake in the class. After 2 weeks they simply weren't listed on the rolecall and moved from the back of the Geography class into the Study hall for 6 classes a week!. I'm refusing to do Religion next year as I need the classes to work on my Economics, i'm not a trouble maker ussually, but when I want something i'll get my own way one way or another!. When someone is genuinely interested in learning and trying to succeed it's very difficult to sit in a study class or whatever and listen to people talking and chatting away! It drives me beserk! I'm just going to go into the Prinicipal's office the first day and explain to her that i'm not partaking in the Religion classes! I'm a devout Catholic and everything but i'm just not wasting my time in a class that means nothing at the end of the day!

Chuchoter

What I'm trying to do is sit out a particular subject because the teacher is really bad. The school has kinda sorta agreed to let another girl do this. I'd like to sit in the lunch hall because its quiet. I find it really hard to work at the back of a class when a teacher is talking. If I can do it for religion as well I will, because its not a very useful class (I'm happy to do religion, I find it quite interesting, just in the school its totally pointless)

lainey108

i actually havent donre religion ever im not interested in it for personal reasons. but the scool allowed me to sit at the bac and work away for 1st to 3rd year. but when i got into fifth year i refused to participate and the teacher wnt even allow me to sit at the back and do work i have to sit there are listen and im not allwed take any books out at all..if i skip the class its classed as mitching and i will get suspended.. so im forced to sit and listen to the class. i honestly dont see the point in religion in 5th and 6th year when we dont do an exam on it!

implausible

This topic crops up fairly often, but it really boils down to one thing - that schools need to operate on rules. While it may not sound like a big deal to just opt out of a class, when a lot of people do it, it becomes impossible to operate. Though you may be over 18, the school is still responsible for you, your safety and whereabouts.

Now, if you can convince your principal to let you study somewhere else, fair play to you, but don't expect it as a right.

Chuchoter

I see the issue with the whole class just not showing up (which is suprisingly a very real possibility) but its not feasible for me to waste 6 classes a week with her :S

Aoifey!

Chuchoter wrote: »

I see the issue with the whole class just not showing up (which is suprisingly a very real possibility) but its not feasible for me to waste 6 classes a week with her :S

But if they allow one student to sit out, they'll have to allow every student who asks, which would just end in madness.

rainbowtrout

Chuchoter wrote: »

I see the issue with the whole class just not showing up (which is suprisingly a very real possibility) but its not feasible for me to waste 6 classes a week with her :S

Yes but what makes you any more special than any other student? It's not just a case of your whole class opting out, if you had students throughout the school coming and going as they pleased there would be mayhem and it would be impossible to keep track of students in a school throughout the day.


It also has very little to do with you being 18 or not. If you've signed up to the schools rules and policies you are expected to abide by them regardless of age.

Now if you approach your principal in a reasonable manner you may be accommodated somewhere, but if you go in all guns blazing demanding your rights and giving out about your teacher, you'll be given short shrift.

Salty

Unregistered. wrote: »

I think what the OP is suggesting is that at 18, are you not responsible for yourself.

Eh, I copped that.

teenagedream

Chuchoter wrote: »

What I'm trying to do is sit out a particular subject because the teacher is really bad. The school has kinda sorta agreed to let another girl do this. I'd like to sit in the lunch hall because its quiet. I find it really hard to work at the back of a class when a teacher is talking. If I can do it for religion as well I will, because its not a very useful class (I'm happy to do religion, I find it quite interesting, just in the school its totally pointless)

What is the subject? And what makes you more qualified of teaching yourself the subject rather than the teacher? I presume it's an exam subject.

unknown13

The same rules apply to everyone if you are 18 or not. Nothing much changes when you turn 18 in secondary school.

PictureFrame

teenagedream wrote: »

What is the subject? And what makes you more qualified of teaching yourself the subject rather than the teacher? I presume it's an exam subject.

She never said she was more qualified to teach the subject to her teacher, you've been through the Education System in Ireland too and i'm sure you can say that honestly, in a school there is more than likely a couple of CRAP teachers. I've had loads of them in the past (particulary JC History where the teacher used to spend the majority of the classes discussing GAA/Hurling with people). My advice to Chuchoter would be to follow their instincts, if you feel you can learn the subject better by teaching yourself and make use of the exam papers and marking schemes go ahead. God knows I sit in some farces of classes sometimes and wonder would I not be better teaching myself the subject!. If you have the drive and motivation it is very easy to self-teach yourself a subject (I am doing so.) There's nothing wrong with showing a bit of "get up and go" so to speak, you'll find by talking to college students that the majority of courses revolve around Independent Learning anyway, might as well start early in my opinion..

Nonoperational

Ah would you just grow up and sit in the class and make the best of it. You're asking can you sit out on your own because your 18 like it's some show of ultra maturity but in reality it just looks like a silly childish act looking for some attention because your one of the minority that's an "adult" now.

Suck it up and go to the class like everyone else. If you have a genuine reason for being unhappy make an appointment with the principal and discuss it.

Chuchoter

The teacher in question has problems every single year, her class fails/does badly and just generally hasn't a clue what she's doing. The school knows this. I'm not trying to be petty and stomp my feet over a bad teacher, I just don't have 6 classes a week to waste and was wondering if my school was legally allowed to let me and another girl (who they've already tenuously allowed do this) sit out. I'd much prefer to stay in a class with a decent teacher, but thats not possible, we've been fighting with the school all year for a solution but they aren't giving us one.

PictureFrame

gpf101 wrote: »

Ah would you just grow up and sit in the class and make the best of it. You're asking can you sit out on your own because your 18 like it's some show of ultra maturity but in reality it just looks like a silly childish act looking for some attention because your one of the minority that's an "adult" now.

Suck it up and go to the class like everyone else. If you have a genuine reason for being unhappy make an appointment with the principal and discuss it.

Actually the majority of 6th years are 18..

teenagedream

PictureFrame wrote: »

She never said she was more qualified to teach the subject to her teacher, you've been through the Education System in Ireland too and i'm sure you can say that honestly, in a school there is more than likely a couple of CRAP teachers. I've had loads of them in the past (particulary JC History where the teacher used to spend the majority of the classes discussing GAA/Hurling with people). My advice to Chuchoter would be to follow their instincts, if you feel you can learn the subject better by teaching yourself and make use of the exam papers and marking schemes go ahead. God knows I sit in some farces of classes sometimes and wonder would I not be better teaching myself the subject!. If you have the drive and motivation it is very easy to self-teach yourself a subject (I am doing so.) There's nothing wrong with showing a bit of "get up and go" so to speak, you'll find by talking to college students that the majority of courses revolve around Independent Learning anyway, might as well start early in my opinion..

I never claimed that he/she said she was more qualified to teach the subject, but clearly he/she thinks they are able to finish the course and complete revision much better than the teacher would, otherwise he/she wouldn't want to leave the class.

Of course there's nothing wrong with a bit of "get up and go" but doing a subject alone which is offered to you in your school is something that should be discussed with the teacher in question, the year head, the principal and possibly the parents. Many people bite off a lot more than they can chew before the the leaving cert year even starts and while doing extra subjects and subjects by yourself is great, the leaving cert year it's all about points not educating yourself on many different subjects.

gpf101

gpf101 wrote: »

Ah would you just grow up and sit in the class and make the best of it. You're asking can you sit out on your own because your 18 like it's some show of ultra maturity but in reality it just looks like a silly childish act looking for some attention because your one of the minority that's an "adult" now.

Suck it up and go to the class like everyone else. If you have a genuine reason for being unhappy make an appointment with the principal and discuss it.

This is up there with the most stupid posts ive seen here. It has nothing to do with 'growing up', the OP obviously thinks that they would do better in independent study, surely thats a mature choice.

Chuchoter

I have no intention of going of educating myself outside of the realms of the course. My plan is to work from the textbook, revisewise, exam papers and some grinds. The teacher is constantly making really confusing mistakes (borne out of not knowing the subject, not silly calculation mistakes). I'm hoping learning it out of the book right is preferable to learning off someone who is always explaining things wrong and making mistakes. I'm well aware I'm taking a huge risk doing it alone, but I think wasting a good part of my week confusing myself is a worse idea.

teenagedream

Chuchoter wrote: »

I have no intention of going of educating myself outside of the realms of the course. My plan is to work from the textbook, revisewise, exam papers and some grinds. The teacher is constantly making really confusing mistakes (borne out of not knowing the subject, not silly calculation mistakes). I'm hoping learning it out of the book right is preferable to learning off someone who is always explaining things wrong and making mistakes. I'm well aware I'm taking a huge risk doing it alone, but I think wasting a good part of my week confusing myself is a worse idea.

Well my advice would be something for your whole class to do not just you. If the teacher is that bad surely the other students in the class want something done aswell? I everyone in the class made a list of what was being done wrong and brought it to the principal or year head something would have to be done. And if nothing happened then no one show up to the class and ye could organise all to get grinds together for a reduced rate.

Chuchoter

At the beginning of fifth year our class went from 15 to 9 people because they all swapped classes. Myself and the other girls who are thinking of doing it alone are doing so because we can't swap classes do to option clashes, so I'm getting fairly cheap grinds with them. The rest of the girls in the class don't really care about the subject as much so they aren't quite as pro-active as us.

jumpguy

First of all, what is the subject, out of curiousity?

Sadly, there's not much you can do about bad teachers, especially as a student as it'll be expected you might have some grudge. You could work up a good protest of students and their parents but if it's anything like my school, that'll never happen because only a minority give a shít.

If it's a subject like maths or English, I'd be quite concerned and make a significant effort to do something about it. If it was like business or something, that you can easily learn yourself, I wouldn't be too concerned, and I'd generally think it wouldn't be worth the bother.

Whatever you do, make sure you stay mature about it. Don't do anything petty or melodramatic, like walking out of class, for example. Perhaps getting your parents and/or yourself to arrange a chat with the principle and/or the teacher in question would be a good first step.

Chuchoter

Its chemistry, sadly. We've been talking to the school all year.

rainbowtrout

Chuchoter wrote: »

Its chemistry, sadly. We've been talking to the school all year.

May as well cut to the chase on this one. There's probably only one chemistry teacher in your school. It's a hard enough subject to do on your own particularly if there is a concept you don't fully understand. If you can afford it and have the time, get grinds.

Saying this as a chemistry teacher.

Nonoperational

AdamD wrote: »

This is up there with the most stupid posts ive seen here. It has nothing to do with 'growing up', the OP obviously thinks that they would do better in independent study, surely thats a mature choice.

You cannot have a policy of allowing people "independent study" in a school environment. It's completely unworkable. Just because a student doesn't like the teacher you allow them to feck off and independently study?

We all had bad teachers, put in the work yourself and work with them instead of against them and you'll get the results.

Chemistry is an easy subject anyway and the books are good. You shouldn't have any problem with it even if the teacher is in your opinion poor.

Chuchoter

First off, its not just my opinion. Second of all, how am I the bad guy for trying to do well in my leaving when its the teacher who has no idea what they are doing and are still getting paid handsomely? I can't work with them. Working with them means listening to confusing, often incorrect explanations and learning off reams and reams of totally irrelevant notes that are in effect just a print off of wikipedia. I recognize we all have bad teachers. I can work with a teacher who isn't brilliant, what I can't work with is flat out not knowing your subject.

bren2001

Chuchoter wrote: »

First off, its not just my opinion. Second of all, how am I the bad guy for trying to do well in my leaving when its the teacher who has no idea what they are doing and are still getting paid handsomely? I can't work with them. Working with them means listening to confusing, often incorrect explanations and learning off reams and reams of totally irrelevant notes that are in effect just a print off of wikipedia. I recognize we all have bad teachers. I can work with a teacher who isn't brilliant, what I can't work with is flat out not knowing your subject.

I remember good aul Business Studies, didn't go to a single class for the two years, studied it myself (a lot). Highest grade in my Leaving A1, she was so bad a teaching.

You can teach yourself most subjects.

Nonoperational

Chuchoter wrote: »

First off, its not just my opinion. Second of all, how am I the bad guy for trying to do well in my leaving when its the teacher who has no idea what they are doing and are still getting paid handsomely? I can't work with them. Working with them means listening to confusing, often incorrect explanations and learning off reams and reams of totally irrelevant notes that are in effect just a print off of wikipedia. I recognize we all have bad teachers. I can work with a teacher who isn't brilliant, what I can't work with is flat out not knowing your subject.

Your not the bad guy, but sometimes in my experience sometimes it's not worth drawing a battle like that on yourself. You shouldn't need to learn any wiki notes for leaving cert chemistry but at the same time I'd be doubtful if she is often incorrect in her definitions. If you go in with the mindset of taking as much as you can from the class it's often better than starting a battle with the end result of you sitting out on your own.

That's just my take on it I may have a different view if I was sitting through her classes too!

spurious

OT, but how has your school's repeated widespread failure of Chemistry not come to the attention of the SEC?

padocon

PictureFrame wrote: »

Actually the majority of 6th years are 18..

I think it depends on the school, in mine over 80% are under 18 going into leaving cert. The TY class is small.

confusticated

spurious wrote: »

OT, but how has your school's repeated widespread failure of Chemistry not come to the attention of the SEC?

I'd say if it's anything like mine was, the grades aren't noticeably lower - and maybe even higher! - because lots of the students will get grinds, especially in a subject like chemistry which can be a requirement for certain college courses.

My physics teacher was woeful but always had classes full of As - my LC class of ten had eight getting grinds, and everyone working harder on physics than most other things to make up for not covering stuff in class.

Chuchoter

Everyone is getting grinds in the class, as well as that the tests she sets are incredibly easy.

NeuroCat

I tried this approach when I was in 5th year. I asked the principal if I could sit out Computers, Religion and P.E as I was trying for medicine and needed to work on my French. He refused, citing the school rules but in 6th year when I took up Business Studies as an 8th subject I asked again and he was more accomodating.

I think it's really about how you ask and the strictness of your school. I had a friend who wrote a strongly worded letter regarding the religious tution and the teacher refused to teach him so he was given "detention" for every religion class in which he was allowed to work on other subjects.

Allie79

I totally understand where you're coming from, my chemistry teacher was appalling, we pre-prepared for classes, constantly corrected her while she was teaching (which she didn't enjoy but it didn't change anything even though some days it was every other sentence), got notes from other classes and other schools and shared them round the class. Every single assessment we had would result in her arriving in the classroom with swathes of notes covering material that we hadn't done that she realised the other chem teacher had put in the exam and we had to learn by tomorrow's exam. Nightmare. She was nice enough, just a rubbish teacher who'd been a research scientist (PhD in biochem) and then decided to teach and had been at the school forever so noone would hear anything bad about her! Good luck, I hope you sort it out.

Just Like Heaven

I study in the assembly 6 classes a week, I went to my principle and deputy principle when I asked if I could just not go to the class. They didn't have a problem with me dropping the subject but insisted I sat in the class, the class was construction and at the time we had started preparing for the practical so there was no way I was getting any work done. I just sat out in the assembly anyway and nobody said anything.

I think my teachers have been more lax about it than they should be though, my deputy asked me one day if I was going to the class each day and making sure I was being put down on the roll, "Of course miss!" :P

I do get a good bit of work done in the free classes, so I reckon you should try it if you feel you'll benefit, Worst case scenario the teacher's will make you go back to class. (Glad it's not chemistry I have to take outside of school though, I can't imagine how I would have grasped some of the concepts on my own)