pope john paul2 class vid :)

Baggio1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz6xt8qmQkQ&feature=related

says it all

gimmebroadband

Lovely memories of BL. JPII, thanks for sharing!

hotmail.com

Nothing about his record on child abuse there.

Baggio1

hotmail aye well he had nothing to answer for as far as i know but many homosexuals who sneeked in as priests certainly did eh :rolleyes:

hotmail.com

Baggio1 wrote: »

hotmail aye well he had nothing to answer for as far as i know but many homosexuals who sneeked in as priests certainly did eh :rolleyes:

First of all, people don't say homosexuals anymore. They say gay.

There is no link between homosexuality and child abuse, but I'm actually not even going to go there. I hope you don't mean that.

How does your warped logic explain the covering up of the abuse?

PatricaMcKay

Baggio1 wrote: »

hotmail aye well he had nothing to answer for as far as i know but many homosexuals who sneeked in as priests certainly did eh :rolleyes:

From a Roman Catholic source...

http://christorchaos.com/CanonizingAManWhoProtectedMoralDerelicts.htm

Also how can you as a Christian defend his kissing of the koran, taking the mark of Shiva and the whole Assisi maddness?

Any way you look at it John Paul II was an evil man.

gimmebroadband

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

From a Roman Catholic source...

http://christorchaos.com/CanonizingAManWhoProtectedMoralDerelicts.htm

Also how can you as a Christian defend his kissing of the koran, taking the mark of Shiva and the whole Assisi maddness?

Any way you look at it John Paul II was an evil man.

Some info on the poster you linked to:

http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060919.asp

The Pope kissed the Quran because the Imam gave it as a gift to him and it is culturally customary in that region to kiss gifts given to you in thanks. It was in no way an endorsement of Islam.

The Pope did not receive the mark of Shiva.

And no, he was not an evil man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aDMFTBcfZg

raymon

No respect for a man who failed to act on allegations of abuse against Marcial Maciel.

This video says it all - I agree

Baggio1

hotmail - people who aint dumb downed media fed none thinkers say homosexual's,,, gay is an old english term meaning - happy and carefree it has nothing to do with guys chasing round after other guys for anal sex. it was a word robbed to show a harmless dress up in skirts mentality which is a cover for rampant perverse behaviour

cover up logic?.. well homosexuals covering up for more homosexuals as far as i can figure out,,.,, i remember one homosexual priest being found dead in a homosexual club and his buddy ran off after giving him last rights!!?? birds of a feather flock together

Winty

the bloke was a hypocrite, on one hand he was against abortion and euthanasia but on the other pro the death penalty. There were certain circumstances "when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society" in which it would be acceptable, but such cases would be "very rare, if not practically non-existent".

But I am sad he is dead, he is better that the Nazi on the gold throne

PDN

Winty wrote: »

the bloke was a hypocrite, on one hand he was against abortion and euthanasia but on the other pro the death penalty. There were certain circumstances "when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society" in which it would be acceptable, but such cases would be "very rare, if not practically non-existent".

Only a hypocrite could describe that position as 'pro the death penalty'.

Manach

I would praise the late Pope for his role in inspiring his homeland, suffering under the communist dictatorship, and helping end the cold war - as mentioned in number of books, latest one - "The Rebellion of Ronald Reagan: A History of the End of the Cold War" by Jim Mann.

georgieporgy

Now that Pope John Paul has been beatified we know that God is pleased with him. I'm happy to side with God.

alex73

raymon wrote: »

No respect for a man who failed to act on allegations of abuse against Marcial Maciel.

This video says it all - I agree

Marcial conned a lot of people... In my opinion he was the Anti Christ, plan and simple. The allegations came out in the late 90's So for 20 years on his office all he say was the good.

Anyway.. if you want more detail on this I can give you, I participated in a Church enquiry with Bishop Chaput.

Cardinal Sodano was a big factor is stopping the Pope from acting. But the reality is macial was master of deception. A Cult leader. A thief, Paedophile.

If JPII have known the truth, he was have dismissed maciel, I am sure.

PatricaMcKay

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Some info on the poster you linked to:

http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_060919.asp

The Pope kissed the Quran because the Imam gave it as a gift to him and it is culturally customary in that region to kiss gifts given to you in thanks. It was in no way an endorsement of Islam.

The Pope did not receive the mark of Shiva.

And no, he was not an evil man!

Yes unfortunately he did, though the type of RC who makes the Papacy the focus point of their religion will deny that. No mention of course of the Assisi carry on that he over saw which perfectly fits in with his kissing the Koran and receiving the mark of shiva. What about his friendship with the Dalai Lama? You realize about the weird sexual practices of Tantric Tibetan Buddhism, particularly the horrible use of young teenaged girls? The invocation of beings who can only be fallen angels?

The whole hysterical cult also that made around himself, with crowds of scantily clad young people screeching "JP II! We love you!" is another days work.

PatricaMcKay

alex73 wrote: »

If JPII have known the truth, he was have dismissed maciel, I am sure.

Please. Do you honestly believe that? How can you?

JP II's infatuation with Opus Dei and his covert support for death squads in Latin America could be another days work.

The man was almost pure evil.

PatricaMcKay

Manach wrote: »

I would praise the late Pope for his role in inspiring his homeland, suffering under the communist dictatorship, and helping end the cold war - as mentioned in number of books, latest one - "The Rebellion of Ronald Reagan: A History of the End of the Cold War" by Jim Mann.

You mean acting as a stooge for the American Empire, helping to flood Eastern and central Europe with drugs, pornography, prositution, etc? Condemning generations there to poverty and despair? Lowering life expectancy and cultural levels massively? Yes well done JP II!

Poland is so much better off now...:rolleyes: And before you say anything there wasnt religious persectution going on there, though political trouble making priests and Bishops got their hands slapped from time to time.

I have a lot of friends from the former Eastern Germany, most of them serious practicing Lutherans and they all want the wall back.

Anyway if you had any love for your own homeland you would loathe the memory of the man.

Manach

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

And before you say anything there wasnt religious persectution going on there, though political trouble making priests and Bishops got their hands slapped from time to time.

Jerzy Popiełuszko: 1947 – 1984

gimmebroadband

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Please. Do you honestly believe that? How can you?

JP II's infatuation with Opus Dei and his covert support for death squads in Latin America could be another days work.

The man was almost pure evil.

As oppose to your own infatuation with conspiracy theories, yeah right, I got it!!!

PatricaMcKay

Manach wrote: »

Jerzy Popiełuszko: 1947 – 1984

LOL!

Pathetic.

A scumbag fascist ends up getting killed by rouge security officers who end up jailed by the supposed nasty state!

Im old enough to remember the troubles when people were being killed regularly by gangs heavily interlinked with the state and tortured by the forces the RCC were telling us to support and you come out with this????

Catch a grip.

Look at Poland now.

raymon

georgieporgy wrote: »

Now that Pope John Paul has been beatified we know that God is pleased with him. I'm happy to side with God.

I do not understand your post. How do we know god is pleased with him?

PatricaMcKay

raymon wrote: »

I do not understand your post. How do we know god is pleased with him?

For the same reason that he knows that God is pleased with Alojzije Stepinac...

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

If JPII have known the truth, he was have dismissed maciel, I am sure.

Alex , thanks for your reply.

You say that if JP would have known the truth he would have dismissed the pervert Maciel.

The correct course of action would be to report the rape of children to the various authorities.

In any case I believe that JPII knew that there was abuse and did not act.

Sorry if I appear to be offensive to the Saint however I believe him to be have been a coward.

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Please. Do you honestly believe that? How can you?

JP II's infatuation with Opus Dei and his covert support for death squads in Latin America could be another days work.

The man was almost pure evil.

If you are saying that John Paul II was evil.. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thats not belief.. its fact.

alex73

raymon wrote: »

Alex , thanks for your reply.

You say that if JP would have known the truth he would have dismissed the pervert Maciel.

The correct course of action would be to report the rape of children to the various authorities.

In any case I believe that JPII knew that there was abuse and did not act.

Sorry if I appear to be offensive to the Saint however I believe him to be have been a coward.

OK, as far as Maciels victims (who I know personally) They came out in 1997 if I remember correctly. Maciel had abused them decades earlier 40's 50's. They continues and some became priests, they then left the congregation. THey have been brainwashed in effect and had written letters praising Maciel. Maciel used the letters to proof he was innocent. This fooled the vatican into thinking it was a plot to darken his name.. Maciel was an evil person, master of deception with immense wealth and connections. I know, I knew him, I was fooled. He fooled a lot of people.

Its never blank and white the past.

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

OK, as far as Maciels victims (who I know personally) They came out in 1997 if I remember correctly. Maciel had abused them decades earlier 40's 50's. They continues and some became priests, they then left the congregation. THey have been brainwashed in effect and had written letters praising Maciel. Maciel used the letters to proof he was innocent. This fooled the vatican into thinking it was a plot to darken his name.. Maciel was an evil person, master of deception with immense wealth and connections. I know, I knew him, I was fooled. He fooled a lot of people.

Its never blank and white the past.

You are correct Maciel was a master of deception
I for one still believe JP turned a blind eye, because this rapist was a friend of his.

It wouldn't have mattered anyway , in the end Maciel was rewarded by the church with a "reserved life of prayer and penitence" , also known as a retirement vacation.

So when I see videos posted of JPII surrounded by children I get an uneasy chill.

georgieporgy

These are John Paul's words to the Irish people on the first day of his visit here in 1979;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/29/newsid_3926000/3926755.stm


Before travelling to Drogheda he was flown to Phoenix Park in Dublin where he delivered an open-air sermon to more than 1.25 million people - nearly a third of Ireland's entire population.
He was loudly applauded at Drogheda when he said, in a direct address to the consciences of both terrorists and politicians: "I appeal to you in language of passionate pleading.
"On my knees I beg you to turn away from the paths of violence and return to the ways of peace."
He continued: "To Catholics, to Protestants, my message is peace and love. May no Irish Protestant think the Pope is an enemy, a danger or a threat."
He also called on Ireland's youth not to engage in violence: "I appeal to young people who may have become caught up in organisations engaged in violence.
"I say to you, with all the love I have for you, with all the trust I have in young people: Do not listen to voices which speak the language of hatred, revenge, retaliation."

---

Who could possibly be offended by that?

raymon

georgieporgy wrote: »

Who could possibly be offended by that?

A great orator. He was a very popular man. This is clear.

But I don't see your point

Yes he did some great things , some truly good deeds. However he did not protect children

PatricaMcKay

georgieporgy wrote: »

"I say to you, with all the love I have for you, with all the trust I have in young people: Do not listen to voices which speak the language of hatred, revenge, retaliation."

---

Who could possibly be offended by that?

First off he clearly was an enemy of Protestants in Ireland. Saying Im not an enemy is one thing, but if he was serious about it he would have suggested to the Free state government to legalize divorce and contraception. He didnt. So that whole statement is a sick joke that only an Irish person used to forcing themselves to pretend to be thick could take seriously.

Secondly at the time through his promotion and friendship with Opus Dei, and condemnation of any of his own priests and Bishops who spoke out against them he was giving support to utterly vicious right wing death squads in Latin America, than he has the cheek to tell Irish people fighting a just war to put down their guns with no mention of why they were fighting.

Than there is his pushing fascist slayers of the Serbian people into "sainthood".

PatricaMcKay

raymon wrote: »

A great orator.

No he was not. He was a great show man but that is something else entirely.

The point of oratory is to get ideas across clearly and with precise definition.

His writings and speeches were a narcissistic blur, infact one of his teachers when he was a student wrote that he had never come across anyone who could write so much to say so little.

jhegarty

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

First off he clearly was an enemy of Protestants in Ireland. Saying Im not an enemy is one thing, but if he was serious about it he would have suggested to the Free state government to legalize divorce and contraception.

Your suggesting a Pope should have told a government what to do ?

PatricaMcKay

jhegarty wrote: »

Your suggesting a Pope should have told a government what to do ?

Im suggesting that if he had meant what he said he could have made a suggestion. We all know the Vatican was more than happy to bully the Free State when it was able to do so (just look at the mother and child scheme and its fevered attempted to stop De Valera from clearing Dublin slums before that), so what would be the big deal about suggesting that the results of its bullying should be taken away?

georgieporgy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

For the same reason that he knows that God is pleased with Alojzije Stepinac...

But not the IRA gun toting Patricia Kelly McKay....

PatricaMcKay

georgieporgy wrote: »

But not the IRA gun toting Patricia Kelly McKay....

Indeed. Nor the Fenians before her.

His role in the bloody partition of Yugoslavia might also be something to look into.

PatricaMcKay

Even Michael Collins for all his many faults wanted to hang 2/3 rds of the RC hierarchy and "nationalize" the the RCC in Ireland. Pity he never got the chance.

PatricaMcKay

Its thick of me to try and argue with hardened Papists.

If anybody thinks that this child abuse loving scumbag was somehow a saint they are way to far gone.

georgieporgy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

he was giving support to utterly vicious right wing death squads in Latin America, than he has the cheek to tell Irish people fighting a just war to put down their guns with no mention of why they were fighting.

Cheek indeed!

and what's wrong with Opus Dei?

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Its thick of me to try and argue with hardened Papists.

If anybody thinks that this child abuse loving scumbag was somehow a saint they are way to far gone.

I am no hardened Papist. I would say I am objective. To call him a "child abuse loving scumbag" goes too far. He was anything but that, That criticism should be laid for not acting quicker to root out the abuse is another matter, there are many factors in this saga.. And the abusers are great at manipulation.

The man certainly was not evil. He did not abuse, and his whole life is a testimony of faith and sacrifice.

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Please. Do you honestly believe that? How can you?

JP II's infatuation with Opus Dei and his covert support for death squads in Latin America could be another days work.

The man was almost pure evil.

On the Maciel Saga and Pope JPII, I would write a 300 page book. Now Maciel was Evil, I would say the Anti-Christ. I know I knew him. The Cult that was greated around him (a cult with the Catholic Church) indulged he. He was the master of deception and deceived the Church and the Pope.

Hard to reply and I could write pages and pages of that story, very long story short. The Pope did know about abuse allegations in 1997, The victims who I know traveled to Rome and gave their testimony. The abuse went back to 40's 50's. Maciel had letters from them saying how great he was etc... He used these letters to defend himself with vatican saying the whole thing was a plot against him and his work. He had brainwashed his victims over many years.

Cardinal Sodano protected Maciel as his family was involved in the construction of the College in rome. As secretary of state he defended Maciel and stopped the Church from defrocking him.. (don't know how much Sodano really know about the truth of Maciels abuse)

There is Evil in the Church, but the Pope was not the evil person. As Catholics and Christians is it so hard to believe the devil does actually work to destroy good.

Pope JPII resounding message of his life was one of Hope truth courage.. He LIVED that life.

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

There is Evil in the Church, but the Pope was not the evil person. As Catholics and Christians is it so hard to believe the devil does actually work to destroy good.
.

My problem is that most people in the church look at good and evil as a balance . That some level of evil can be tolerated because of all the good work that goes on

However good work does not balance out evil work.

Turning a blind eye is evil, cover ups are evil, silence is evil

Why can't the church expel the evil and retain the good.

This is the only way the church will get through this time.

prinz

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

I have a lot of friends from the former Eastern Germany, most of them serious practicing Lutherans and they all want the wall back.

LOL. Good for them. Ostalgie does exist. Usually spurred on by people who (a) didn't actually grow up in the DDR or (b) were well off under the old system... some people made quite a good living informing on their relatives, coworkers and neighbours.

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

First off he clearly was an enemy of Protestants in Ireland. Saying Im not an enemy is one thing, but if he was serious about it he would have suggested to the Free state government to legalize divorce and contraception. He didnt..

On the one hand he should have intervened to appease/respect the Protestant community at the expense of Roman Catholic teachings, but on the other he shouldn't show any respect to other faiths?

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

A scumbag fascist...

Sorry, but what proof do you have that Popieluszko was a scumbag or a fascist?

I'm no huge fan of JPII but at least try to have some sort of coherent verifiable stance.

PatricaMcKay

prinz wrote: »

On the one hand he should have intervened to appease/respect the Protestant community at the expense of Roman Catholic teachings, but on the other he shouldn't show any respect to other faiths?

Given his love for the Ustache and various death squads in Latin America calling him a fascist is fair enough.

You can have your own teachings, but why do you need to make them state law applying to everyone?

prinz

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Given his love for the Ustache and various death squads in Latin America calling him a fascist is fair enough.

Got a link for this in relation to Popieluszko? Do you see the irony in complaining about death squads when you deliberately take the name of a member of an organisation which had no qualms about organising death squads of its own?

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

You can have your own teachings, but why do you need to make them state law applying to everyone?

The Irish government made state law not John Paul II. So again is there any coherent reason he should have been speaking up against Catholic teaching to please some denominations but is an evil man for giving the traditional mark of respect to the gift of a Koran?

alex73

raymon wrote: »

Turning a blind eye is evil, cover ups are evil, silence is evil

The Church has not turned a Blind eye, It has faced up to the reality.

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Given his love for the Ustache and various death squads in Latin America calling him a fascist is fair enough.

You can have your own teachings, but why do you need to make them state law applying to everyone?

Facts.. What facts do you have. You must be crazy to say he supported death squads..

gimmebroadband

raymon wrote: »

Why can't the church expel the evil and retain the good.

.

Does that extend to the laity who are murderers, those who kill babies through abortion, sodomy, etc, all are evil in the eyes of God. Should not the sinner be converted??

Mark 2:17

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

The Church has not turned a Blind eye, It has faced up to the reality.

Cloyne tells me that the church is still at it and has learnt absolutely nothing

Monty.

raymon wrote: »

Why can't the church expel the evil and retain the good.

The Church needs to start expelling guilty Cardinals and Bishops, and fast.

But first you have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt who is actually guilty and of exactly what, and then who is lying and manipulating, and who is not. Much easier said than done in any large organisation.

But if you research Current Vatican Cardinals Sadano, Bertone, and Law, it's not hard to know who should be put on trial.

Unfortunately the media are making no attempts to carry out any proper investigative journalism, they're just interested in printing generalised hysteria and hyperbole.

raymon

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Does that extend to the laity who are murderers, those who kill babies through abortion, sodomy, etc, all are evil in the eyes of God. Should not the sinner be converted??

Mark 2:17

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

The trouble with bible quotes is that they could be interpreted in any way , even to benefit the truly evil.

That is the church's problem - some evil people are involved in running the church. The church is descending into an organisation riddled by evil

I am merely suggesting that the church exorcises these evils , and renews itself

alex73

raymon wrote: »

The trouble with bible quotes is that they could be interpreted in any way , even to benefit the truly evil.

That is the church's problem - some evil people are involved in running the church. The church is descending into an organisation riddled by evil

I am merely suggesting that the church exorcises these evils , and renews itself

Under John Paul II the church was renewed and continues to be renewed with Benedict Renewal takes time, People need to changed. Its also the duty of everybody in the Church, all of us collectively to renew and support the church.


Many see renewal as bending to modern pressures, and as some protestant church's have done there are a multitude of splintered beliefs. The Catholic Church holds the fullness of faith, But many of its members did not live this.

Reality is, Pope John Paul who this thread is about, as Cardinal, never expected to be Pope, Fate, Gods providence put him on that path.

He was a much loved professor in Lublin University, greatly admired as Bishop of Krakow, an amazing intellect, His work The acting Person from a Philosophical point of view is a sign of his mind.

So Judge him on what HE did, He brought his faith to 129 countries to hundreds of millions of people who went to hear him.

georgieporgy

Sigh! the good old days. John Paul 2, Mother Teresa, and Cardinal Ratzinger. ( and Malcolm Muggeridge too).

I didn't appreciate it at the time but the 1980s and 90s were cool.