Law and French

Chuchoter

About to go into 6th year and I'm thinking about either Law with French in Trinity or the BCL/Maitrise in UCD. I'm interested in these because I'm good at French and I like seeing new places and travelling. In the past I've done quite a bit of debating and I like English as well. I'm always being told I'd be suited for law as well. What I'd like to do is go work in the EU or public policy here, and focus on equality or environment or something similar, but I've no idea whether thats a totally head in the clouds plan. Is that something I could ever succeed at doing? I'd like a job where I'd have lots of people to talk to and lots of options to move careers and countries, but also room for a relationship and some holidays. I don't want to have to work absolutely all the time until I'm 65.

IfUSeekAmy

I was in a similar position to you this time last year. Torn between those two courses.
I was lucky enough to have an acquaintance doing law&french in Trinity. Here's what he had to say when I questioned him:

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I hope you're not too stressed about the whole CAO! I remember how worked up I got about it; I practically lived in my career guidance counsellor's office. Ok well I'm in Paris at the moment having a tremendous time so inevitably yes, I think you should do law and french at trinity. I'm also here with loads of UCD french law and Maitrise kids who I will sound out for you. Perhaps though it would be easier if you gave me a few questions - just anything that pops into your head and I'll be happy to answer. About law, french, trinity, lecturers, social life, bad things about UCD (I could write a disseration on that subject), bad things about trinity (also numerous but not as abundant). I actually gave a speech to 6th year students last year in Trinity about studying law in Trinity - so not wanting to brag or anything, but I'm kind of an advice expert!

So, while I could write a big long speel in English (a language I haven't written in properly in a few months) I think it would be better to employ the socratic method (i.e. questions and answers to tease out a better understanding). Incidentally many of the lecturers employ this in lectures which means rather than just sitting passively in a lecture like you would in UCD, in Trinity you will be engaging with the lecturer and fellow classmates over various points of law.

Right I'll step up to the plate and bat each question in the order it came in.
1. I have only had one lecturer who I would accuse of going through the motions to fulfil contractual obligations. All the rest have been extremely passionate about they're subjects, always happy (and in many cases pleading) to get a chance to answer questions. The majority of classes are stimulating, well planned and also reasonably challenging. But the main strength of the TCD law school is that because it's smaller you get to know your lecturers much better which in turn means they can write you glowing references in fourth year when you leave. Having talked to some UCD people I can tell you that in UCD you have to fight to track down a lecturer for a post college reference. In Trinity, every student is assigned two lecturers who will write them references. Though of course if you develop a close relationship with a different lecturer they will write you one too. The law and french department is essentially run by one woman (Niamh Connolly). She always has the best interests of students at heart and will do whatever you need her to do, within reason, to ensure you get the maximum out of the course. I'm not sure if it's because of the very high points associated with it, but law and french definitely gets special treatment in the law school. On the french side, I'm not going to lie, the french department in Trinity is ****. There is no other word to describe how mismanaged it is. However, law and french is primarily based in the law school so even when you do have french classes, many of these will be thought by people employed through the law school rather than the french department. The few classes you will have with the french department, while not terrible, can leave a lot to be desired.

2. Academic qualifications is an interesting one. So when I finish law and french I will have an LLB (ling franc) as opposed to a plain LLB or a BCL (in UCD). As I'm sure you are already aware the Maitrise is two degrees (A BCL and a Licence in France). However it is at this point that I must point out some unpleasant Maitrise truths:

I have four friends here in Paris with me who are very intelligent, hard-working people but who are finding the Maitrise to be the biggest nightmare of their lives. They have done less french and french law in UCD than we did in Trinity and yet they are expected to do the same workload as french students over here all through french at an extremely high (its paris 2!!!!) standard. All of them have wanted to quit at many points and I believe they will all transfer back to UCD next year, getting a law with french law degree instead of maitrise.

It is worth noting that the work load is so hard that only one Irish person has actually completed the degree, though two more should graduate this year! Also worth noting is the fact that Cambridge (one of the few other unis who run this degree) have discontinued it effective this year. The UCD students all say that there are a lot of rumours that the maitrise will be discontinued in UCD too.
I don't want to scare you completely. When I asked them if they had advice for you they all laughed and said tell him not to do it. However one of the girls who is perhaps managing to keep her head above the parapet did say if he wants to do it tell him the UCD part is grand but France will be the hardest work of his life.

Personally I think the main problem is that UCD did not adequately prepare them for French uni. A further problem is that the standards in France are so much higher that I think it was such a culture shock for the maitrise students - one they have struggled to get over.

Interestingly, more and more people are discounting the value of Maitrise. Apparently many employers, rather than seeing it as two degrees actually view it as two half degrees. I mean it's a little ridiculous, and dare I say arrogant, to think you can squeeze into two years what most do in four. It's inevitable that there will not be the same in-depth reflection of subjects, rounded characters (because you won't have time for extra curriculer pursuits), etc.

Ultimately, loads of people have law degrees of all shapes and sizes, so to stand out, it's not about your qualification; that just gets you through the door. What's really important is what you choose to do with your life outside your academic subjects to demonstrate you're a "rounded" person. Though personally I detest the idea of pursuing extra-curricular activities merely to have something good on your CV. Do them because you care. Learn because you love to!!

3. Paris 2: Yes I am studying here. I have kind of touched on this but let me elaborate. It is soulless. The environment is so competitive that people tend not to talk, let alone socialise. Thankfully we have managed to make some erasmus friends and I play on the basketball team which is great for my french but it is so hard to make french friends. Girls have it much easier because they get asked out by french guys all the time. Having said that, I love it here because the lectures are wonderful (although it's all a little too didactic for my tastes), the subjects I am getting to do are fascinating (I'm actually delving into political science and philosophy here as well as doing a few law subjects) and I've never been happier.
The main thing I miss about trinity is the uni atmosphere. Here in Paris the universities are just random buildings spread all over the city. People come to a lecture and then go home. There are no campuses. Trinity on the other had has it's magnificent college campus, and wonderful social life. Sigh....

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all credit to my acquaintance.

what he said above made me make trinity law & french my first choice.
just gotten the results, 560 points. Hopefully enough. another 5 & I'd be sleeping much sounder though. Also, I removed maitrise completely from the cao.

Best of luck!

Purple violet

Chuchoter wrote: »

About to go into 6th year and I'm thinking about either Law with French in Trinity or the BCL/Maitrise in UCD. I'm interested in these because I'm good at French and I like seeing new places and travelling. In the past I've done quite a bit of debating and I like English as well. I'm always being told I'd be suited for law as well. What I'd like to do is go work in the EU or public policy here, and focus on equality or environment or something similar, but I've no idea whether thats a totally head in the clouds plan. Is that something I could ever succeed at doing? I'd like a job where I'd have lots of people to talk to and lots of options to move careers and countries, but also room for a relationship and some holidays. I don't want to have to work absolutely all the time until I'm 65.

I always think it is better to go with a composite law degree than a pure law degree, it leaves your options a little more open. Employers seem to like composite degrees especially Law and French. You will have a lot of options open to you when you finish your degree, a law degree is applicable to professions that you may never have thought about, Tax, Journalism, Politics, Working in international bodies. The Eu is a very attractive option at the moment you don't seem to have your head in the clouds at all.

With Regards the Matrise, I would strongly advise against it. The drop out rate is absolutely astounding. Law with french in UCD is extremely popular, the employment statistics are good and most of the people who just graduated seem generally happy. You will have the option of going to Paris 2 and you will also have the option of other more relaxed schools. The person above had lots of information about Trinity, all I can say is the ones I have met are all very successful and intelligent. Do not despair if you don't have the points for either of these courses. Many of the law degrees in UCD allow you to travel to france and study through french. I did Business and law, and I was able to live in Toulouse for a year. It was fantastic.

There is a lot of pessimism surrounding the legal profession at the moment, and there is no doubt that there is an oversupply of law graduates, but it is hard to tell what the market will be like in 5 years. While it is true that many of us did not get our first choice starting job, it is also true that EVERYBODY is doing something. Some are traveling, some are doing accounting, Some are doing masters with a view to going into the EU, but many got contracts. A good law degree will always carry value, even as a vehicle to other things.