Average degree - am I screwed?

LegacyUser

Hi everyone.

I'm going unreg'd for this....although I suspect someone I know will stumble across this and if they do...well, it doesn't take a quantum physicist to work out who I am! *waves*

So here's my story:
I was a top student in school. Got the highest Junior and Leaving Cert results in my year in school. Even got a scholarship for college.
I did 1st year of my course and finished with an average of 67% - not bad.

But in second year, things started to go badly. I got disillusioned with my course and didn't really put as much effort in. I had also become sadder more frequently and used often avoid social occasions. I felt kinda lonely. I had resolved to do better in 3rd year but I just fell apart. I stopped going to college, spent all night awake unable to sleep and then all day in bed too tired to get up, not that I wanted to get up in the first place. By November I'd gone to a GP and she suspected I was suffering from depression. Subsequent visits confirmed that and I was put on ever increasing doses of medication, and also got seen by a psychiatrist.

Things briefly got better but then about halfway through 4th year it all got too much. I had to go see psychiatrist again, have medication switched and talk to a counsellor in college. I tried as hard as I could in my exams but was only able to finish with a 2.2 degree. As such, it's not a bad result, and I know some people with 2.2's still go on to great careers, but having sailed through school it was still disappointing.

In hindsight, I know I did the wrong course in college and wouldn't have ever achieved top marks or anything. But if my mental health had been better, I honestly think I'd have come out with a 2.1. I know I'm smart and my second level results show I'm a good student. I just stumbled into a hole and couldn't figure out how to get out of it.

Thorughout my college years, I spoke to only two lecturers about my predicament; these were lecturers of modules which I knew I'd fail unless I spoke to them. Although they were sympathetic, I still came out with rubbish results. They couldn't do much more for me, I guess. But I was too afraid to talk to anyone else; I felt if I went to them and explained what was happening, they'd think I was just a lazy student trying to come up with excuses as to why I was underperforming. I felt like everything was my fault, that depression was just a silly excuse and not a valid reason. By the time my counsellor was able to talk me out of this mindset, it was too late to do anything about it. I graduate with my 2.2 degree in September and am trying (and failing) to find a job with it.

I can't help but feel I wasted four years and let myself down majorly. So many job advertisements have a phrase that says something like: "Good academic achievement necessary; minimum 2.1 or better." I don't even satisfy the minimum criterion for "good" achievement. The HR people who draft these are basically telling me I'm no good, and that makes me feel worthless even though I know I'm not. I want to go back to college some day and do the course I should have done when I was 17. I know I could be an excellent student; I am passionate and determined, and feel like I am slowly recovering from depression. But to go back to college would require about €30,000 for tuition, not to mention living expenses and rent. To save up some money, I need to work for a few years.

But trying to find a decent job with this damn 2.2 (not to mention the economic climate) is proving really difficult. I can't write on my "degree 2.2....but I was depressed!" on my CV. I can't write "I don't have a 2.1....but would have gotten one if...." on a job application. I feel like the world of industry and academia will take one look at my CV, see 2.2 and automatically go "well he's clearly either lazy or stupid; throw it in the bin". And it's so disheartening. I don't want to go onto do postgrad work because, in all honesty, I just don't want to work in that field academically anymore. If I go back to college, it will be in an area I'm actually passionate about. In hindsight, I should have dropped out in college in first year but I was too young back then to know what I wanted and I assumed I was on the right track.

I guess the main piece of advice I'm looking for here is this: is there any way to approach the subject of mental illness when it comes to job interviews and stuff?
*If I say "I only have a 2.2" they'll say I'm not good enough and cross me off their list.
*If I say I underachieved because of mental illness, they'll think I'm someone who may lapse into that illness again (and there's no guarantee I won't) and still cross me off their list.
*If I say I underachieved due to 'exceptional circumstances' and don't go into any more details, they'll think I'm a chancer and YET AGAIN cross me off their list.
And I know that there are more sides to me than my degree but employers don't seem look for that. Why else would they specify "minimum 2.1"?

I just feel like I can't win. What should I do?

P.S. I just want to clarify that a 2.2 degree isn't a bad result; I'm making it sound worse than it really is because that's the prospective academic snobs, who sadly make up a lot of employers, take. So I hope anyone who has a 2.2 or lower isn't offended by anything above. I'm not judging anyone, just ranting about those who do judge....

P.P.S. Apologies for the vast length of this post. I realise it's probably very waffly but I wanted to make sure I fitted everything in.

Depression can stop a person being able to function. It is most definitely a valid excuse for why you didn't do better, but if I'm honest I don't think you should use it.

Your result is not something you can change, so you should try to adjust to it. Accept that you did how you did, and stop thinking about how things might have been. You did your best with what you had to work with at the time, and if it excludes you from some job opportunities then that's a fact you're going to have to deal with. You know you have it in you to do well, so work that to your advantage, accentuate your talents, academic or otherwise, without just fixating on your degree result. It's something employers look at, but it's not the be all and end all of getting a job. You could even branch out away from looking for degree related jobs. You could even look to get more qualifications without going back to college. There are always other ways of reaching a goal. TEFL is a good example, where you do a month long course and get a qualification.

Just don't fixate on your result. I've had depression myself and one of the biggest hurdles I had to get over was fixating on shoulda woulda couldas, constantly agonising over things I couldn't change. Don't let it get to you and move on in any way you can. I know that after years of college it's disheartening, but you have much more to offer than one result, and it would be a real shame for you to miss out on other opportunities because of it.

Good luck, I really hope things pan out for you soon.

woodchuck

What is it that you’re really passionate about studying? If it’s in any way related to your degree (or even if it’s not) you could look into doing a masters in that area. I know you mentioned you didn’t want to do a postgrad, but if it’s an area you’re interested in you’d be more likely to do well in it. And then when that’s on your CV the 2.2 from your degree won’t matter anymore.

A one year taught masters would be much less costly (and time consuming!) than doing another degree for 3 or 4 years. I know the money would still be an issue, but if you can find any job that doesn’t require a 2.1 just go for it, stick it out and save up the money to do whatever it is that you really want to do.

There’s always the possibility of a research masters as well. I don’t know too much about them, but I’m pretty sure they actually pay you to do them and it takes about 2 years to complete.

Monotype

There's quite a selection of postgraduate diplomas around now. They often start at a basic level so you could pick a different area or one which would complement your work. It's hard to do well in a course that you're not fond of. A degree with a 2.1 won't get that many more jobs - don't even bother mentioning it on a CV, say you got an honours grade instead. You just have to keep pushing.

Don't sit around all day, get out and try to pick up any small course/experience which can help you.

IrishEyes19

Monotype wrote: »

There's quite a selection of postgraduate diplomas around now. They often start at a basic level so you could pick a different area or one which would complement your work. It's hard to do well in a course that you're not fond of. A degree with a 2.1 won't get that many more jobs - don't even bother mentioning it on a CV, say you got an honours grade instead. You just have to keep pushing.

Don't sit around all day, get out and try to pick up any small course/experience which can help you

a 2:1 is an obvious sign of a honours grade, in fact it's a second class honours grade 1 in exact terms, so theres no difference in what you state on your cv in that regard monotype. in fact saying an honours degree only is very vague and might apear to employers that you are being evasive about your true grade

@Op, can you afford to do a postgrad maybe, like the above poster said, theres loads available that you can get in with a 2:2 and if you apply yourself graduate with a higher grade that will stand out

ILikeBananas

Hi OP,

I too was a high achiever in secondary school (575 points) who got a 2.2 in my degree. I was bitter about that result for years afterwards. Like yourself I felt like saying "yeah I got a 2.2 but look at my leaving cert results!". For someone who had sailed through the rest of my education, always coming top of the class it was a bitter blow to my ego to end up with such a mediocre degree. I actually had a recurring nightmare for years afterwards where my final year exams were coming up and I knew I hadn't studied enough.

I've spent a lot of time mulling over it and there are many reasons why I underachieved. Ultimately though what it really boiled down to was that I wasn't passionate about my course and as a result I didn't put the work in. From reading your story I think we have that in common. It's tough to choose a course when you're 17 and even tougher to have the courage to drop out when you know it's not for you.

In my case I missed out on the top companies due to my results but was able to find a less attractive job with a smaller outfit. I worked for them for a number of years, never really enjoying it, before quitting to go travelling and sort myself out. After that I worked in the same industry abroad but found that it was the same old thing. I came home and was on the dole for a time which was a real wake up call.

Had I not spent that time out of work I might have plodded along on the same mediocre career path. Instead I had a long hard look at myself and realised that I was not happy with the direction I was going in. I looked at all of my options. I did not want to go back to do an undergrad because of the expense and the duration and I didn't want to completely waste my degree. So instead I ended up choosing a post graduate course that would get me into an entirely different area.

Now due to my 2.2 I found that my options were somewhat limited (the desire for people with 2.1+ degrees isn't limited to the jobs market :rolleyes: ) but I did find a course that I was extremely interested in in my local university. I met up with the course coordinator and discussed the course with him and fortunately I was accepted.

Going back to college felt like getting a second chance and I threw myself into it. I used the memory of the disgust I felt when I got my final result of my degree to drive me on and I was delighted to find out recently that I achieve a 1.1 for my post graduate diploma. I'm now working on my masters but my confidence is so much higher and I'm very optimistic about my career opportunities.

So my advice to you OP is to have a think about it. Maybe if you weren't interested in your course, you won't be interested in that line of work either.

Don't be too hard on yourself. You know yourself what kind of potential you have and believe me I know how frustrating it is for people to judge you on one result. But that's life. We all get dealt a poor hand at some stage. It's what we do with it that defines us.

Good luck.



p.s. When writing your CV you can say that you got a Second class Honours Degree without specifying whether it's a 2.1 or a 2.2. If it comes up in the interview tell them the truth but hopefully by then you can win them over with your interview technique.

p.p.s a friend of mine got a pass degree and whenever it came up in interviews he gave them a (true) sob story of how he become a father when he was 20 and that it was a great achievement for him to get through college at all-worked everytime

kaji

I got a 2:2 for my degree and a 2:2 for my postgraduate diploma, and was delighted with both results! I never eventhought about it really, till I read your post!! All I wanted was an honours degree and got that. I have 2:2 on my CV and have been working since I've left college (teaching). Don't worry about it!

dellas1979

Go back and do a post-grad and/or masters, and nail that if the 2.2 is bothering you that much.

You seem have 2 issues on this: 1 is your personal feeling of letting yourself down that you need to address, and the second is panicing about what employers will think about you.

Ill be honest, in 10-12 years in the work force (and Im up to Masters at this stage), Ive never been asked exactly what I got in my qualifications. I do not put any results of anything on my CV. If they want to know, they can ask. There was only one place when after I got the job, they wanted to photocopy my parchments (and that was after I got the job). Its all about confidence and how you approach things. If you are going to employers with your current attitude "oh woeful me", you wont get past the door.

Asry

I got into a Master's and now have an MA to my name, and I only had a 2.1! (yes, I'm really stupid. And also nearly failed 3rd year).

I've never been asked what I got either. It really doesn't matter.

gerryk

IMO, people look at third level education all wrong. It's not there to teach you knowledge, it's there to teach you skills... namely those of application, research and reason.
A 2:2 result in an undergraduate degree means little these days anyhow... you should really look at supplementing that with a master's in whatever your chosen subject.

RandolphEsq

You got to college for a degree, not an education. It isn't important OP. A masters is undertaken to provide you with an acute familiarity with a specific area of interest. That grade would matter more.

Borat_Sagdiyev

OP, don't worry about it. A degree is a degree. I'm in a job earning a decent salary ( 6 years in the business, 3.5 years in current position ), and I didn't even get an honours degree !

LegacyUser

*If I say "I only have a 2.2" they'll say I'm not good enough and cross me off their list- Just put second class honours on CV

*If I say I underachieved because of mental illness, they'll think I'm someone who may lapse into that illness again (and there's no guarantee I won't) and still cross me off their list- Wouldnt go drawing attention to this. If it arises, you could mention that you were forced to address some personal difficulties during this period and whilst it was unfortunate timing, you came through this and are extremely proud of your achievements to date.

*If I say I underachieved due to 'exceptional circumstances' and don't go into any more details, they'll think I'm a chancer and YET AGAIN cross me off their list- As above. Also dont use the word 'underachieve'

And I know that there are more sides to me than my degree but employers don't seem look for that. Why else would they specify "minimum 2.1"?- Whilst im not directly involved in HR, I have helped with junior recruitment. I havent been involved in the screening stages but I do get sent a list of the interviewees and summary details. Yes degree results, leaving cert points etc are screened for and weighted. Details of colleges attended are also noted. I dont necessary agree with this but unfortunetly thats how it is these days and so I wouldnt agree with posters views who graduated a few years ago and say your degree grade doesnt make a difference. In saying that, I can only speak for some finance related careers and the career your pursuing may be less academically concerned.

It is a very competitive market place and so If I were you, I would:
-Learn to sell myself and my CV/Cover Letter. You wont convince the employer if you cant convince yourself.
-Consider a masters etc. Or sign up for exams in the field you wish to pursue.
-Consider unpaid work experience- Shows dedication and drive and gives employers the opportunity to see the diligent worker that you are and not just your degree grade
-Consider jobs abroad


You had a tough time and you've done well to get where you are. However college is over- Stop concentrating on the past and work with what you've achieved

dellas1979

Oh - did I mention in my 10-12 years in the work force, I've never gone through a recruitment agency? Maybe that is where the difference is - knocking people's confidence.

If that is the way ye see potential employees (like cattle), then no wonder all of this has gone so wrong.

missyb

don't beat yourself up,you have done really well, I have never been asked for my degree results,not once in the ten years since i graduated.But I also spent several years doing something I hated, don't fall into that trap just because of what you studied

tenchi-fan

Just because you did well in the Junior and Leaving does not mean you will do great at college. Look back on your junior cert papers.. you'll probably find a join the dots as a geography map reading question.

Given your age, ability to handle pressure and interest in the course a 2.2 really isn't that bad of a result. Just put down "honours degree" on your CV. Don't rush into a masters!

Asry

The same thing happened to me in college, actually. The whole relapse of an existing psychiatric thing...my best friend/lover (?) at the time ODed and had to go to a psych ward...I drank an awful lot and nearly failed 3rd year but didn't by the skin of my teeth, thank God.

I got a 2.1, which I'm proud of, but it's worse than your result. It matters absolutely nothing in the real world. It only matters for a master's application, where most of the time the requirements are a 2.2.

So I did a master's anyway, ended up in a psych unit myself but finished well, with a 2.2, which I'm really proud of. As they say, sh1t happens. Such is life. People pick themselves up from the muck and carry on.

You have a 2.2., requirements for further study so...stop worrying. You have a degree! Many, many people never have that opportunity.

discus

I graduated with a 2.2 in an Ordinary level science degree a few years ago, and within 2 years was earning mid thirties in a laboratory. Don't worry mate, if you've got what it takes to get through an interview, then any degree will count.

Don't listen to any of the bull**** being given in this thread. For example:

p.s. When writing your CV you can say that you got a Second class Honours Degree without specifying whether it's a 2.1 or a 2.2. If it comes up in the interview tell them the truth but hopefully by then you can win them over with your interview technique.

People who read cover letters and such are well aware of the bull****ters out there. Put it out straight right away. Write 2.2, and go from there. You don't get a degree by being retarded, make sure you can talk about what you actually did achieve in university/college and go from there.

Borat wrote:

OP, don't worry about it. A degree is a degree. I'm in a job earning a decent salary ( 6 years in the business, 3.5 years in current position ), and I didn't even get an honours degree !

Exactly. I think it's best to acknowledge that your degree is pretty good, but not fantastic... So it's worth maybe remembering that if you get in at any position, you can always work upwards. If you have the ability, you'll get there if you're willing to work.

My final word - don't bother giving a sob story in an interview. Go in as if you possess the best qualification in the world and sell yourself from there.

LegacyUser

Was in the very same boat as you OP, had no interest in my course, was unbelievably immature. partied way too hard and never attended lectures/tutorials. All this culminated in doing the very bare minimum and receiving a 2:2 which seemed to be seriously frowned upon by many and I knew in no way reflected my ability. All it reflected was a poor course choice and complete lack of application. After several years of growing up and realising what I wanted to do I went about completing a Post Grad Diploma in a completely different area and attacked it with gusto(I had to do some explaining to get on the course, but just told the truth about my complete lack of effort/immaturity when I first started 3rd level). I worked dilligently, didn't mess about, got a 1:1 and won an award for finishing top of the class. Needless to say job offers came thick and fast when this was on the CV. So if you maybe now are a bit wiser and more mature perhaps you have an idea about what area you would be interested in. Take a look at Postgrad level and think about it. Remember if you're a mature student you may be able to get fees paid, I did. But whatever you do, apply yourself this time and show what you can do.

Asry

a 2.2 is average though? Why is everyone treating it like it's sh1te? Very few people get firsts. Only one person I know did. Are all the posts on this thread just being elitist by suggesting otherwise, or as I got a qualification that was a point lower, does that mean I'm just stupid?

Captain Graphite

This thread hasn't been posted on for a long time but I hope it's ok for me to bump it since I was the OP.

Anyway I wanna thank everyone who commented on this. Writing that post almost a year ago really helped, and I did get food for thought from a lot of the replies. So cheers for that. What reminded me of this thread was seeing updates on Facebook from people I knew in college graduating this year; I'm happy they did well, obviously, but seeing comments like "I got a 1.1 yay" and "I have a 2.1 Woo!" just brought back the feelings of bitterness and self-loathing I had about my own results this time last year.

Deep down I know I'm never gonna be happy with my result. It's too big a deal for me to ever get over fully. I know people who got 2.2's and 3rd's in their courses and were delighted with them but I just have this complex about academic achievement; growing up, the only thing I was ever good at was doing well in school, and having that one ability taken away at college level was gut-wrenching. Despite the mental health issues, a lack of interest in large parts of my course and the fact that I was doing a course that's generally considered "difficult" (Joint Honours in Mathematics & Physics) I still felt really despondent looking over my results. I had considered not going to my graduation as I felt almost ashamed of myself and thought I didn't deserve to be congratulated; eventually I swallowed my pride/bitterness and went, for my parents' sake more so than anything else. Looking back I'm glad I did.

I guess the toughest thing for me to come to terms with wasn't so much the hand I got dealt with in college (and I reckon most people would have struggled equally badly in my position, possibly worse) but the refusal of employers to even give me the chance to justify it and make my case. Anytime I see "minimum 2.1" on a job description or Masters application requirement it makes me so angry, because I know there are others out there like me who, for any of many possible reasons, don't satisfy that one requirement but could easily excel if given the opportunity. :mad: I did email Trinity College about this out of curiosity as they have a general 2.1 requirement for all their postgraduate courses. Got a polite email back saying "we look at each application individually and encourage everyone to apply"; some comfort that they would be willing to at least look at my (hypothetical) application rather than just scoffing and throwing it in the bin when they see my degree result. That (along with this thread) was the first encouraging sign for me that helped turn things round.

So now more of the bright side: after my moping and general apathy towards life subsided a little bit I signed up with AIESEC, knowing that I almost certainly wouldn't get a job here. Through AIESEC I ended up teaching English in China for four months, which is a massive boost to the CV as well as a hugely memorable personal experience. And evidently I did quite well as a teacher as the agency wanted me to come back in September and work full time! I had to turn down that offer down though, because as well as signing up with AIESEC I had also reconsidered the "doing a Masters" option (and the advice on this thread helped me in this regard, so thanks again!)

My biggest problem was that I had restricted myself to doing Masters in Ireland; when I looked at the UK, I found a lot more variety and a certain course, that's related to my field but also related to another (more interesting) field, jumped out at me. It said "minimum 2.2" (thankfully!) and I applied for it. I was honest about my history of depression, as they did ask about it in the application, but didn't mention it in my personal statement; instead I used that opportunity to play up my strengths and show that I was actually an intelligent person who was doggedly determined to succeed. I got accepted and I'm moving to England in September to do an MSc at the University of Nottingham! (A university ranked approximately 200 places above the university that gave me a 2.2! :pac:) I know this MSc is gonna be challenging, and I don't think I've ever been so excited and nervous at the same time. But I've also never been so determined to succeed. From September onwards, "get a distinction or die trying" is all that's gonna be on my mind.

So even though, as I mentioned earlier, my degree result is something that's always gonna haunt me (along with disastrous relationships, expired friendships and the other assorted baggage I'm dragging along....but I guess everyone has something they drag with them!), I think I'm in a pretty good position now to make up for that in a major way. I've also been off anti-depressant medication for over a month. I've my fingers crossed that I'll be able to keep getting by without it, even though trying to make it from now to September with no job is gonna be rough. But I'll survive!

I'm not entirely sure if any of you guys who helped me on this thread will ever see this again. But either way I wanna say a big thanks to you all. There's still a large chance that everything will go disastrously wrong, but for the first time in my life I'm cautiously optimistic about the future. This time last year I'd never have been able to say that.