Today a man got 15 years for rape, and another man 9 years for murder.

CorkMan

http://www.eecho.ie/news/ireland/mother-of-three-will-be-loved-forever-and-missed-daily-as-killer-jailed-for-10-years-514706.html (homicide link)

http://www.eecho.ie/news/ireland/15-year-jail-term-for-social-deviant-who-raped-aunt-514704.html (sexual assault link)

The man who got jailed for murder has been backdated to May 2010. WTF is wrong with this country? IMO the man who murdered should get 25 years minimum, instead he got get out around 6 years time on good behaviour.

Craebear

In Catholic Ireland you get less time for murder because the victim is sent to heaven.

Sticky_Fingers

Why are either getting out at all?

artanevilla

I've a new career plan, murder someone, get 6 years of free meals (small bit of rape) and then when I get out make thousands on the after dinner circuit doing speechs, going to partys as a real murderer etc.

FatherLen

the guy who had seven identities got 12 years. he stole something like 248000 euro and got 3 more years than someone who has killed someone else. the judicial system is fucked. this is a common fact yet they will do nothing about it...

7sr2z3fely84g5

Op in the first case you linked,it was actually a conviction of manslaughter,not murder,sentences are backdated in return of promise of good behaviour in prison and to cut down on prison spaces been taken up.

On subject of actual murder,life is life,but it's up to the justice minister to have final say who gets out or not,i would prefer a tariff system like uk.

In second case,life sentence can be handed down for rape but for some reason judges never hand this down,maybe because the prisons would full of elderly priests now.

Caraville

Craebear wrote: »

In Catholic Ireland you get less time for murder because the victim is sent to heaven.

What does the Catholic Church have to do with this? Am I missing something? (I get it's a joke, but, eh, it makes no sense in these cases)

mikemac

CorkMan wrote: »

The man who got jailed for murder has been backdated to May 2010. WTF is wrong with this country? IMO the man who murdered should get 25 years minimum, instead he got get out around 6 years time on good behaviour.

Read it again

Convicted of manslaughter

Tehachapi

Craebear wrote: »

In Catholic Ireland you get less time for murder because the victim is sent to heaven.

Would be funnier if there wasn't a sad element of truth to it

howamidifferent

Thomas Sparse Stewardess wrote: »

life sentence can be handed down for rape but ... judges never hand this down ... because the prisons would full of elderly priests now.

This.

Sticky_Fingers

mikemac wrote: »

Read it again

Convicted of manslaughter

Which is to my mind a complete joke, he went at her with a hurley and a microwave for Christs sake. Drunk or not this fella has 23 previous convictions (5 for assault) and a "propensity to violence" and should be locked up for good.

Yakult

I dont get why a murder in this country is always regarded as "manslaughter" and given a soft sentence.
Does that mean he didn't intend on killing her and her death wasn't the outcome he wanted?

amacca

artanevilla wrote: »

I've a new career plan, murder someone, get 6 years of free meals (small bit of rape) and then when I get out make thousands on the after dinner circuit doing speechs, going to partys as a real murderer etc.

you are going to have to ruin the lives of a lot more than one or two people to get 40k a speech

7sr2z3fely84g5

Yakult wrote: »

I dont get why a murder in this country is always regarded as "manslaughter" and given a soft sentence.
Does that mean he didn't intend on killing her and her death wasn't the outcome he wanted?

Yeah,i give a better example,i know if i accidentally knocked over someone whilst driving a car and been completely sober i would hope an escape with least a manslaughter conviction instead of murder.

i think murder is actual intent to kill?.

i think some verdicts are reached in manslaughter due to person's state of mind and influence,but sometimes this has worked in scumbag favour.

nicechick!

I get so angry about this my friend was murdered not long now before he will be eventually out!! The dread, fear, upset its beginning to creep into conversation with friends thus now starting to bring back the emotional onslaught (though it never goes away you learn to cope) I can't imagine what its doing to the family!

People should be punished accordingly especially for crime against others but it stinks that ''life'' is only 14years in this country!!

jayteecork

What about those lads who ram raided the ATM in Kerry and got six years each. No previous convictions, unemployed and own on their luck, only mules for a gang leader..

No one hurt, they got away with no money, no one "mentally scarred for life"

They should be given medals for attacking that ****ing institution.
Put the ****ing directors behind bars instead.

Tehachapi

Yakult wrote: »

I dont get why a murder in this country is always regarded as "manslaughter" and given a soft sentence.
Does that mean he didn't intend on killing her and her death wasn't the outcome he wanted?

Again this is "Catholic Ireland", there is no such thing as an evil person! They need to be given a chance and guided down the path of the Lord.

amacca

Yakult wrote: »

I dont get why a murder in this country is always regarded as "manslaughter" and given a soft sentence.
Does that mean he didn't intend on killing her and her death wasn't the outcome he wanted?

he was just trying to heat up a pot noodle for her


2 X 2 years, suspended to run concurrently with time off for good behavior.

Richard Hillman

Murder is over-rated according to Irish judges and law.

Sunnyisland

FYP,

Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human being, in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder. The distinction between murder and manslaughter is said to have first been made by the Ancient Athenian lawmaker Dracon in the 7th century BCE.[1]

The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation.

Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. wiki

ilovesleep

FatherLen wrote: »

the guy who had seven identities got 12 years. he stole something like 248000 euro and got 3 more years than someone who has killed someone else. the judicial system is fucked. this is a common fact yet they will do nothing about it...

And yet bertie ahern the biggest fraudster in the history of this state is walking around free.

Sticky_Fingers

realies wrote: »

The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill – a state of mind called malice, or malice aforethought – or the knowledge that one's actions are likely to result in death; manslaughter, on the other hand, requires a lack of any prior intention to kill or create a deadly situation.

Manslaughter is usually broken down into two distinct categories: voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. wiki

I think this asshole demonstrated that after he broke the hurley off of her and then grabbed the mircowave to finish the job. Being drunk is no excuse, it may have affected his state of mind but the intent to kill was there.

If he was given manslaughter instead of murder because he was drunk would that mean someone who commits a rape whilst off their block should get the same consideration since it would not be "rape" rape without the malicious forethought?

The mind boggles at the legal system sometimes

7sr2z3fely84g5

Alcohol is a drug so was under influence.

Rape whilst drunk,im not sure about that,i think those type cases can be hard to prove because some of them are malicious,ie like meeting someone in pub and pair of them are drunk and one of them regrets sleeping with the other person,anyone clarify that?.

CorkMan

So if you're planning on murdering some, make sure to have a couple of cans beforehand and you'll get 6-8 years max?

kowloon

CorkMan wrote: »

So if you're planning on murdering some, make sure to have a couple of cans beforehand and you'll get 6-8 years max?

But now that you've put it up on boards we know you're planning ahead.

Potential-Monke

Yakult wrote: »

I dont get why a murder in this country is always regarded as "manslaughter" and given a soft sentence.
Does that mean he didn't intend on killing her and her death wasn't the outcome he wanted?

Manslaughter is when X kills Y without the intent of killing Y.

Murder is when X kills Y with the intent of killing Y.

It's proving intent that makes murder convictions so hard to stick. Intent usually requires previous planning, and this needs to be proven...

Thomas Sparse Stewardess wrote: »

Rape whilst drunk,im not sure about that,i think those type cases can be hard to prove because some of them are malicious,ie like meeting someone in pub and pair of them are drunk and one of them regrets sleeping with the other person,anyone clarify that?.

Rape is very hard to prove regardless. Especially those cases. Again, the DPP will only go ahead with a case if there is a high chance of securing a conviction, as they don't want to drag the victim through the whole case unnecessarily.

Like all criminal cases, guilt has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The intent to rape is diminished by the fact that both parties were intoxicated, however doesn't excuse it.

Rothmans

Thomas Sparse Stewardess wrote: »

Yeah,i give a better example,i know if i accidentally knocked over someone whilst driving a car and been completely sober i would hope an escape with least a manslaughter conviction instead of murder.

i think murder is actual intent to kill?.

i think some verdicts are reached in manslaughter due to person's state of mind and influence,but sometimes this has worked in scumbag favour.

Nope, its an intent to kill or cause serious bodily harm, which I think is the least that this man intended to do.

Rothmans

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Manslaughter is when X kills Y without the intent of killing Y.

Murder is when X kills Y with the intent of killing Y.

It's proving intent that makes murder convictions so hard to stick. Intent usually requires previous planning, and this needs to be proven...

Not necessarily, it is presumed that the defendant intends the natural and probable consequence of his actions, regardless of whether the prosecution actually proves this or not. Premeditation does not equal mens rea (intent). This presumption can be rebutted however.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964/en/act/pub/0005/sec0004.html

Ulysses Gaze

CorkMan wrote: »

The man who got jailed for murder has been backdated to May 2010. WTF is wrong with this country? IMO the man who murdered should get 25 years minimum, instead he got get out around 6 years time on good behaviour.

WTF is wrong with the legal system?

Judicial discretion.

wonderfulname

While it's a fair point that justice is all over the place in this country, to be honest I'm more concerned at the fact that we don't seem all that interested in rehabilitation, these guys are going to be out sooner or later I care more about their likelihood of re-offending than precisely how long they are in prison.

Ulysses Gaze

wonderfulname wrote: »

While it's a fair point that justice is all over the place in this country, to be honest I'm more concerned at the fact that we don't seem all that interested in rehabilitation, these guys are going to be out sooner or later I care more about their likelihood of re-offending than precisely how long they are in prison.

Rehabilitation, classes/counselling etc, should be available in prisons and should be mandatory at that. And not used as a way of knocking off time for a sentence either. It should be part and parcel of the terms of the sentence.

LighterGuy

Caraville wrote: »

What does the Catholic Church have to do with this? Am I missing something? (I get it's a joke, but, eh, it makes no sense in these cases)

As I said in another thread recently,
We are on a majoritly athesist message board. Due to the recent chruch scandals (yet again) .... Some athesists on this board are jumping out of the woodwork to slag the church at any possible chance.

Take this thread. No religious connection, as you point out. But ... hey its open season to a certain percentage of people on this board. Cause its the "in thing" right now :rolleyes:

CorkMan

Was watching Road Wars there, last year the UK brought in a new law which allows you to the locked up for up to 4 years if you carry a knife in a public place.

A man rang the Police saying he was outside his Mother's house because he was getting threats from people towards her. The man had to walk over from his place and he had the knife on him. Anyway when the Police arrived the man was outside his Mothers, keeping an eye out. He had a knife on him though and he got 18 months in prison :rolleyes:

CorkMan

Was watching Road Wars there, last year the UK brought in a new law which allows you to the locked up for up to 4 years if you carry a knife in a public place.

A man rang the Police saying he was outside his Mother's house because he was getting threats from people towards her. The man had to walk over from his place and he had the knife on him. Anyway when the Police arrived the man was outside his Mothers, keeping an eye out. He had a knife on him though and he got 18 months in prison :rolleyes:

jumbone

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Which is to my mind a complete joke, he went at her with a hurley and a microwave for Christs sake. Drunk or not this fella has 23 previous convictions (5 for assault) and a "propensity to violence" and should be locked up for good.

A propensity to violence and his previous convictions may be part of the reason he got done for manslaughter. If somebody flies into a violent rage easily and regularly then it would be difficult to prove beyond doubt that he had the intention to kill the victim. AFAIK if you didn't set out to kill, then you can only be convicted of manslaughter.

Ireland has some legislation to get around double jeopardy but I think it only applies in cases where new and relevant material has been discovered/come to light. If the DPP tried to get get a murder conviction and failed, they might not have been able to get him for manslaughter afterwards.

This is all my opinion btw, I'm not a lawyer and I didn't bother looking anything up for this post. My only knowledge of this area comes from watching Law and Order and reading John Grisham books

I fully expect to be multiquoted and have all my points torn to shreds!

7sr2z3fely84g5

jumbone wrote: »

his previous convictions may be part of the reason he got done for manslaughter.

The jury are usually not told about the accused previous convictions until after the current conviction,which can be a benefit to some real scumbags.

Judge usually warns the jury when going home not to google search the accused to find any previous convictions.

Killer Pigeon

The guy who through a pie at Rupert Murdoch got 6 weeks in prison. It's a disgrace really. He should have got at least 4 years, never mind 6 weeks.

hatrickpatrick

Some would argue that rape and other forms of violent assault are just as bad as, or even worse than murder, since they can cause lasting trauma which completely ruins the rest of the victim's life.
Not saying I agree with that, just throwing it out there. It doesn't surprise me too much therefore to sometimes see a violent assault getting a harsher penalty than murder.

hatrickpatrick

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

The guy who through a pie at Rupert Murdoch got 6 weeks in prison. It's a disgrace really. He should have got at least 4 years, never mind 6 weeks.

He should have got 4 years' pay on the spot and a shiny gold medal. That man is a legend.