Vitamin B-12 Myth?

pat13wx

I was going to put this into the thread I recently started on the availability of vitamin B-12 on the vegan diet, but feels it might be better as a stand-alone topic.

On researching the issue I came across a website questioning the need for concern about B-12.

Please read and offer opinions. Thanks

http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html

El_Dangeroso

There is one incorrect point in that article when he says that there are very few plant sources of B12, in fact there are no plant sources of B12.

Some foods can attenuate loss of B12, like seaweed, but you have to be eating A LOT of them.

Vegans are more at absolute risk of B12 deficiency than omnivores. This is a well acknowledged fact and the fact that people who have damaged absorption have more of a deficiency doesn't negate that point.

I don't get the resistance to supplementation, I supplement my omnivorous diet with things I don't get from food. It doesn't mean I don't eat a healthy diet, it means I eat from a food system where overall nutrition has declined over the years.

There's a really easy way to find out whether you need to supplement with B12 too, it's a very cheap blood test.

If your going to supplement do it with the more expensive methylcobalamin rather than the more common cyanocobalamin, as cyanocobalamin isn't as potent.

Ice.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

If your going to supplement do it with the more expensive methylcobalamin rather than the more common cyanocobalamin, as cyanocobalamin isn't as potent.

I had to pinch myself there for a minute! Something I actually agree with you on!

ApeXaviour

That's not exactly an unbiased link you provided. It is fairly undeniable that vegetarians are at a higher risk of a deficiency than non-veggies. This website: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/everyvegan is similarly pro-vegan yet seems to push the requirement for fortified foods or supplementation:

"Is There a Vegan Alternative to B12-Fortified Foods and Supplements?

If for any reason you choose not to use fortified foods or supplements you should recognize that you are carrying out a dangerous experiment - one that many have tried before with consistently low levels of success."

However this is not to suggest there's anything significant to worry about. The deficiency tends to be caused more often by other factors and supplementation is not difficult in this modern world.

There's no shame in maintaining optimum health through artificially acquired substances. To do otherwise would be falling victim to the naturalistic fallacy (equating "natural" with good")... cancer for example is natural, so is eating meat.

I supplement vitamin b12 now and then and I'm by no means vegetarian, I do it mindfully because I'm on PPIs which are known to inhibit absorption from natural (animal) sources. This is more likely to be a cause of deficiency than vegetarianism I believe.

Ice.

B12 is a bacteria. The B12 from animals is a second-hand source and is unreliable. Best just to take a B12 supplement. Everyone should TBH.

ApeXaviour

Ice. wrote: »

B12 is synthesised in nature by bacteria.

FTFY

Ice. wrote: »

The B12 from animals is a second-hand source and is unreliable.

In what sense is it unreliable?

Ice. wrote: »

Best just to take a B12 supplement. Everyone should TBH.

While not a bad precaution, in many cases it would be unnecessary.

Ice.

ApeXaviour wrote: »

In what sense is it unreliable?

Animal products are unreliable sources of B12. Eggs for instance are a very poor source, there are proteins in eggs which inhibit B12 absorption. Many do not absorb B12 from meat well either. If animal products were a reliable source of B12 then no meat eater would be deficient.

ApeXaviour wrote: »

While not a bad precaution, in many cases it would be unnecessary.

Without prior blood-work to test for a B12 deficiency it is better to err on the side of caution IMO.

pat13wx

Thanks for the responses. So you guys aren't too concerned about the B-12 issue possibly being a myth, then so it's probably best to err on the side of caution.

ApeXaviour

Ice. wrote: »

Eggs for instance are a very poor source, there are proteins in eggs which inhibit B12 absorption.

That's more of an exception rather than rule.

Ice. wrote: »

If animal products were a reliable source of B12 then no meat eater would be deficient.

That's a non-sequitur. Most cases of deficiency in meat-eaters are due to gastrointestinal or other impairments.
Also reliable is a subjective term. Animal products are a reliable source in that a healthy functioning human can obtain more than their sufficient requirement from them.

The Hill Billy

Ice. wrote: »

B12 is a bacteria. The B12 from animals is a second-hand source and is unreliable. Best just to take a B12 supplement. Everyone should TBH.

This is very foolish advice.

Anyone who unknowingly had naturally high levels of B12 & took supplements could do themselves serious damage.

Get your B12 levels checked by a medical professional before taking supplements.

tHB

El_Dangeroso

I dunno about animal products being a poor source of b12, otherwise where do I get my really high b12 levels from?

The Hill Billy wrote: »

This is very foolish advice.

Anyone who unknowingly had naturally high levels of B12 & took supplements could do themselves serious damage.

Get your B12 levels checked by a medical professional before taking supplements.

tHB

Though I totally agree that no one should supplement without a blood test as it's pointless as well as expensive, there's no established tolerable upper limit for oral b12 supplements. Toxicity has only every occurred from injections. B12 is water soluble so excess is just gotten rid of in the urine. They put it in chewing gum sometimes, it's like vitamin C.

Ice.

The Hill Billy wrote: »

This is very foolish advice.

Anyone who unknowingly had naturally high levels of B12 & took supplements could do themselves serious damage.

Get your B12 levels checked by a medical professional before taking supplements.

tHB

There are no side effects of taking an oral B12 supplement that I know of. The body only absorbs a fraction of what is ingested. The rest is excreted. The vast majority of people are taking supplements everyday anyway without their knowledge as most processed food is fortified with added vitamins (including B12 ).

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I dunno about animal products being a poor source of b12, otherwise where do I get my really high b12 levels from?

A serum B12 test can and does fail to detect a deficiency. Urinary MMA and homocysteine tests need to be taken as well to rule out a deficiency.

El_Dangeroso

A serum B12 test can and does fail to detect a deficiency. Urinary MMA and homocysteine tests need to be taken as well to rule out a deficiency.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, incidentally my homocysteine is pretty goddamn awesome too. :cool:

In any case I wouldn't recommend blanket supplementation for everyone. If you were being that cautious with all nutrients you'd end up with more pills to eat than food. Just be judicious and know the ones that you can't get the RDA from in food.

Ice.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

In any case I wouldn't recommend blanket supplementation for everyone. If you were being that cautious with all nutrients you'd end up with more pills to eat than food. Just be judicious and know the ones that you can't get the RDA from in food.

I always recommend that you get your nutrients from food. However, B12 is such a crucial vitamin with fairly nasty consequences if you become deficient so I always recommend that people err on the side of caution in this instance. If the general population was routinely and accurately tested for B12 deficiency on a regular basis I suspect we would see quite a lot of low/deficient levels.

El_Dangeroso

Ice. wrote: »

I always recommend that you get your nutrients from food. However, B12 is such a crucial vitamin with fairly nasty consequences if you become deficient so I always recommend that people err on the side of caution in this instance. If the general population was routinely and accurately tested for B12 deficiency on a regular basis I suspect we would see quite a lot of low/deficient levels.

True that, but your still going to be talking about a minority. Any population wide supplementation is going to have some negative unforeseen consequences, even if supplementation is largely safe.

Plus omnivores with b12 deficiency normally have serious issues with gut absorption. Popping pills will not help in that instance unless you go down the sublingual route.

Ice.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

True that, but your still going to be talking about a minority. Any population wide supplementation is going to have some negative unforeseen consequences, even if supplementation is largely safe.

Plus omnivores with b12 deficiency normally have serious issues with gut absorption. Popping pills will not help in that instance unless you go down the sublingual route.

But the population is already being subjected to supplementation weather they like it or not. There's added vitamins in milk, added vitamins in cornflakes, added iodine in salt, added fluoride in the water supply etc etc.

Anyway, I should have been more clear. Apologies. When I say B12 supplementation I am referring to sublinguals as these are absorbed directly under the tongue or side of mouth and therefore bypassing any absorption problems in the stomach such as a lack of intrinsic factor.

El_Dangeroso

Ice. wrote: »

But the population is already being subjected to supplementation weather they like it or not. There's added vitamins in milk, added vitamins in cornflakes, added iodine in salt, added fluoride in the water supply etc etc.

Yep, and now we're seeing some studies coming out showing high intakes of folic acid from fortified cereals may be bad for health.

My point is there's a big difference between blanket supplementation and supplementing what you cannot obtain in sufficient quantity in the diet.

bythewoods

I remember learning in lectures last year that you absorb something like 3% of the B12 you take*, so unless you're taking mega-doses, the chances of toxicity from oral B12 supplements is pretty low, especially if it's in a vitamin complex where there's not a whole lot'a B12.

*Probably not the exact %, but something quite low like that.