Criteria for expelling a priest

raymon

What crimes does it take for the Catholic church to expel a priest.

Here is one example of a priest not expelled.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/predatory-paedophile-priest-81-gets-six-years-for-sex-abuse-2835324.html

alex73

raymon wrote: »

What crimes does it take for the Catholic church to expel a priest.

Here is one example of a priest not expelled.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/predatory-paedophile-priest-81-gets-six-years-for-sex-abuse-2835324.html

He was convicted today, So I presume next week he will be defrocked.

Do you suggest all priests be expelled before conviction. I know of 1 priest in Sligo who was accused by a woman, she later admitted it was a lie. Is it not better to allow the law take its course and when convicted then be expelled.

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

He was convicted today, So I presume next week he will be defrocked.

Do you suggest all priests be expelled before conviction. I know of 1 priest in Sligo who was accused by a woman, she later admitted it was a lie. Is it not better to allow the law take its course and when convicted then be expelled.

I'm not suggesting anything.

This priest was already convicted before in 1997

So please read my original post again

jhegarty

He is no longer a priest.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ex-priests-apology-for-torture-of-sex-abuse-159776.html

Magic Beans

jhegarty wrote: »

He is no longer a priest.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ex-priests-apology-for-torture-of-sex-abuse-159776.html

Says who? Priests are ordained forever. http://www.catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=387

raymon

jhegarty wrote: »

He is no longer a priest.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/ex-priests-apology-for-torture-of-sex-abuse-159776.html

Untrue , he is still a priest. He has been banned from saying mass . But he is still a priest.

Littlehorny

when there caught stealing money they are able to get rid of them fairly quick!!!

Manach

Magic Beans wrote: »

Says who? Priests are ordained forever. http://www.catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=387

Sorry - FYI link is OOS.

Magic Beans

I don't know what OOS means.

Manach

Out of service - please ignore my post, the site is back up - it looked as if it was hacked earlier.

tenchi-fan

Manach wrote: »

Out of service.

Could you not just have said "out of service" the first time?

raymon

Getting back to the original point, can a truly evil heinous criminal remain on as a priest ???

At what level of evil do proceedings to expel a priest begin?

raymon

I am concluding that evil people can remain as priests. ( nobody has presented an coherent argument against this )

This presents a difficulty for me , I am forced now to view all priests I may encounter as being potentially evil.

The church should kick evil people out rather than harbour them

alex73

raymon wrote: »

I am concluding that evil people can remain as priests. ( nobody has presented an coherent argument against this )

This presents a difficulty for me , I am forced now to view all priests I may encounter as being potentially evil.

The church should kick evil people out rather than harbour them

Come on... Generalisations don't make sense.. all walks of life you get evil people.

A priest is a priest forever, its a sacrament and it can't be taken away, If a Priest commits a crime or does not follow church teaching he is removed from ministry and barred from practising as a priest.

In the Catholic Church in Ireland in 2011 if there is an allegation made against a priest he will be asked to step aside, the bishop will inform gardai and usually HSE, His parish will be made aware of the allegation. If he is convicted he will be defrocked, which means he can minister as a priest.

A priest is a priest forever... "Tu es sacerdos in aeternum secundum ordinem Melchizedek "

As a Catholic I totally understand how you feel towards the actions of some priests, its an utter disgrace. But the vast majority of them a good honest men. You need to judge each priest on his own merits his own actions,,, not shadow him with sins of others.

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

Come on... Generalisations don't make sense.. all walks of life you get evil people.

A priest is a priest forever, its a sacrament and it can't be taken away, If a Priest commits a crime or does not follow church teaching he is removed from ministry and barred from practising as a priest.

In the Catholic Church in Ireland in 2011 if there is an allegation made against a priest he will be asked to step aside, the bishop will inform gardai and usually HSE, His parish will be made aware of the allegation. If he is convicted he will be defrocked, which means he can minister as a priest.

A priest is a priest forever... "Tu es sacerdos in aeternum secundum ordinem Melchizedek "

As a Catholic I totally understand how you feel towards the actions of some priests, its an utter disgrace. But the vast majority of them a good honest men. You need to judge each priest on his own merits his own actions,,, not shadow him with sins of others.

Thanks for your candid response however Jesus I'm sure would not let these evil men represent him.

There should be a mechanism if expelling evil from the church. Otherwise it could potentially become an evil church

georgieporgy

raymon wrote: »

Thanks for your candid response however Jesus I'm sure would not let these evil men represent him.

There should be a mechanism if expelling evil from the church. Otherwise it could potentially become an evil church

Jesus gave his view in the parable of the tares
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Tares

PDN

georgieporgy wrote: »

Jesus gave his view in the parable of the tares
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Tares

But if you go on to read Christ's own interpretation of the Parable of the Tares, you can readily see that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue under discussion in this thread.

"He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the Kingdom; and the darnel weeds are the children of the evil one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. As therefore the darnel weeds are gathered up and burned with fire; so will it be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will gather out of his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and those who do iniquity, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus Himself said that the field in the Parable represents the world, not the Church. The parable is addressing why God does not remove evil doers from this world immediately.

gimmebroadband

The sacraments are Priest-Proof. No matter how holy or wicked a priest is, provided he has the intention to do what the Church does, then Christ himself acts through the priest, just as he acted through Judas when Judas ministered as an apostle. So whether Pope John Paul II or a priest on death row for a felony consecrates the bread and wine, it is Christ himself who acts to gives us his own body and blood. Francis de Sales was saying he was not going to let the wickedness or immorality of the priest lead him (Francis) to commit spiritual suicide.

Christ can work still and does work still even through the most sinful priest. And thank God! If we were dependent on the priest's personal holiness, we would be in trouble. Though they are chosen by God from among men, priests are tempted and fall into sin just like anyone else. But of course God knew that from the beginning. Eleven of the first twelve apostles scattered when Christ was arrested, but they came back.

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp

ambid

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The sacraments are Priest-Proof. No matter how holy or wicked a priest is, provided he has the intention to do what the Church does, then Christ himself acts through the priest, just as he acted through Judas when Judas ministered as an apostle. So whether Pope John Paul II or a priest on death row for a felony consecrates the bread and wine, it is Christ himself who acts to gives us his own body and blood. Francis was saying he was not going to let the wickedness or immorality of the priest lead him (Francis) to commit spiritual suicide.

Christ can work still and does work still even through the most sinful priest. And thank God! If we were dependent on the priest's personal holiness, we would be in trouble. Though they are chosen by God from among men, priests are tempted and fall into sin just like anyone else. But of course God knew that from the beginning. Eleven of the first twelve apostles scattered when Christ was arrested, but they came back.

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp

With all due respect, I think this post sums up everything that is wrong with the Roman Catholic Church.

I don't believe God acts through priests who rape and torture children. I believe God is disgusted by priests who rape and torture children. I imagine Catholic bishops made the same rationalization - that the priest was still an instrument of God regardless of what perverted acts the priest carried out.

The Catholic Church needs to take seriously it's obligations to people in this world. It needs to acknowledge it is accountable to people in this world. It needs to stop covering up for priests who rape and torture children.

God works through people who seek forgiveness and who repent. What astonishes me is that the Catholic Church does not repent. Cloyne proves they were still impeding investigations just a couple of years ago. The church has tried to avoid financial compensation to victims. Many in the church retain the absurd belief that canon Law is superior to state law.

Until it really repents, the Catholic Church will continue to die in Ireland. So it should. It has become a pathetic, corrupt, and abusive organization. No person needs an organization like that in order to have a relationship with God.

Through its corruption, the Catholic Church has become an obstacle to God's work in this country.

gimmebroadband

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Isaiah 55:9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_%28Catholic_Church%29

Just as well we trust God and not men!!

Also the Priests and the Clergy are NOT the Catholic Church!

raymon

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Also the Priests and the Clergy are NOT the Catholic Church!

Yes they are. This is a weak semantic defense that the church is the people.

The catholic church had become a hierarchal organisation .

The head of the church is the pope followed by cardinals ,bishops, etc

At the moment there could be evil at any level.

raymon

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Christ can work still and does work still even through the most sinful priest. And thank God! If we were dependent on the priest's personal holiness, we would be in trouble

Exactly my point - evil men are still be working in the church.
And this practice is being justified with unrelated parables, ambiguous bible quotes, tales of saints who may have said something or other.

Shocking stuff .

I believe the church is riddled with evil.

I do not dispute that some good and great work is done by individuals . But this thread is not about the good priests and bishops. It is about the evil ones. Why are they still there

Graces7

alex73 wrote: »

Come on... Generalisations don't make sense.. all walks of life you get evil people.

A priest is a priest forever, its a sacrament and it can't be taken away, If a Priest commits a crime or does not follow church teaching he is removed from ministry and barred from practising as a priest.

In the Catholic Church in Ireland in 2011 if there is an allegation made against a priest he will be asked to step aside, the bishop will inform gardai and usually HSE, His parish will be made aware of the allegation. If he is convicted he will be defrocked, which means he can minister as a priest.

A priest is a priest forever... "Tu es sacerdos in aeternum secundum ordinem Melchizedek "

As a Catholic I totally understand how you feel towards the actions of some priests, its an utter disgrace. But the vast majority of them a good honest men. You need to judge each priest on his own merits his own actions,,, not shadow him with sins of others.

Saddens to see so many wearing blinkers.

And trotting out the "spin" the bishops are using.

So many knew what was going on and turned a blind eye; that is evil.

This is what Archbishop Martin keeps trying to say. That unless we admit how much evil there is in the church, then how can we ever purify and renew?

There is no "vast majority" of the innocent in Ireland.

Graces7

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The sacraments are Priest-Proof. No matter how holy or wicked a priest is, provided he has the intention to do what the Church does, then Christ himself acts through the priest, just as he acted through Judas when Judas ministered as an apostle. So whether Pope John Paul II or a priest on death row for a felony consecrates the bread and wine, it is Christ himself who acts to gives us his own body and blood. Francis de Sales was saying he was not going to let the wickedness or immorality of the priest lead him (Francis) to commit spiritual suicide.

Christ can work still and does work still even through the most sinful priest. And thank God! If we were dependent on the priest's personal holiness, we would be in trouble. Though they are chosen by God from among men, priests are tempted and fall into sin just like anyone else. But of course God knew that from the beginning. Eleven of the first twelve apostles scattered when Christ was arrested, but they came back.

http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp

Very few will belive this now and most will prefer to find a priest who they know and can trust; and that is very few now,

How can total purity and total goodness dwell in the hands that have raped and tortured? it would scorch them.

This teaching was never intended to be applied to sins like this but to the more "ordinary" day to day issues we all deal with.

IS not a priest who has so totally broken his vows a priest in truth no longer? He has after all alienated himself from Jesus wilfully and deliberately and totally and surely Jesus will withhold then.

raymon

Correct me if I am wrong , but the conclusion to this thread is that evil priests can remain as priests, no matter how evil they are. So potentially a priest could be good or evil.

Ok understood !

alex73

raymon wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong , but the conclusion to this thread is that evil priests can remain as priests, no matter how evil they are. So potentially a priest could be good or evil.

Ok understood !

No, Convicted Priests, or priests who have been proven to be immoral are not longer allowed to practise a priests. They are barred from Ministry. Potentially anybody could be evil.. We are only judge people on their objective actions. If a priest has done no evil, committed no crimes and served the Church honestly, the we accept his is an honestly man.

You seem to want to start from the premise that all priests are evil until otherwise proven good?

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

No, Convicted Priests, or priests who have been proven to be immoral are not longer allowed to practise a priests. They are barred from Ministry. Potentially anybody could be evil.. We are only judge people on their objective actions. If a priest has done no evil, committed no crimes and served the Church honestly, the we accept his is an honestly man.

You seem to want to start from the premise that all priests are evil until otherwise proven good?

But a priest banned from ministry is still a priest. That's my issue

I would like to believe that priests are good , but cannot start from that premise . Sorry

Monty.

raymon wrote: »

But a priest banned from ministry is still a priest. That's my issue

No one can be unbaptised or unordaned etc. A sacrement cannot be undone, removed, and taken back from someone. But any errant Priest should be defrocked and prevented from ever ministering again as a Priest in future.

raymon wrote: »

I would like to believe that priests are good , but cannot start from that premise . Sorry

If that's your premise, then to be fair, you need to apply that premise to all people regardless of their occupation.

raymon

Monty. wrote: »

No one can be unbaptised or unordaned etc. A sacrement cannot be undone, removed, and taken back from someone. But any errant Priest should be defrocked and prevented from ever ministering again as a Priest in future.



If that's your premise, then to be fair, you need to apply that premise to all people regardless of their occupation.

We there you go - once a priest always a priest . Even the devil himself could be a priest.

On your other point a priest does not have an occupation like a plumber or a software programmer. I have never heard of the plumbers union covering up rape of one of its members and sending him to work in a different parish

alex73

raymon wrote: »

We there you go - once a priest always a priest . Even the devil himself could be a priest.

On your other point a priest does not have an occupation like a plumber or a software programmer. I have never heard of the plumbers union covering up rape of one of its members and sending him to work in a different parish

Where are you going with this? Nobody is covering anything. The Church has 7 sacraments, once the sacraments are administered they can't be taken back, As I already said if a priest has been proven to be a criminal or does not follow church teaching they he is removed from ministry. He is not moved to another parish.

So lets me honest and recognise that priests today at good honest People. If you don't think they are, proof it and get them removed. If you have no proof they are bad, then why point fingers.

As for organisations that cover up abuse... The Gardai have done it, They Army has done it, They Government has done it, Church of Ireland has done it. I am not saying what the Catholic Church did was right, it wasn't. but the sins of some does not mean the whole is tainted and evil, we are not.

Monty.

raymon wrote: »

We there you go - once a priest always a priest . Even the devil himself could be a priest.

On your other point a priest does not have an occupation like a plumber or a software programmer. I have never heard of the plumbers union covering up rape of one of its members and sending him to work in a different parish

You can try to twist and misrepresent my replies all you want. You cannot be un-baptised, un-confirmed, or un-ordained etc., it's just a plain fact. A Priest can be removed permanently from any form of ministry, another plain fact. That does not mean anyone condones anything or excuses anything a baptised or ordained person does or fails to do later. If you want to discuss clerical abuse and the cover up there is a thread for that. I'm not going to feed off topic trolling here.

ballsymchugh

does the OP mean excommunication rather than defrocking??

raymon

alex73 wrote: »

Where are you going with this? Nobody is covering anything. The Church has 7 sacraments, once the sacraments are administered they can't be taken back, As I already said if a priest has been proven to be a criminal or does not follow church teaching they he is removed from ministry. He is not moved to another parish.

So lets me honest and recognise that priests today at good honest People. If you don't think they are, proof it and get them removed. If you have no proof they are bad, then why point fingers.

As for organisations that cover up abuse... The Gardai have done it, They Army has done it, They Government has done it, Church of Ireland has done it. I am not saying what the Catholic Church did was right, it wasn't. but the sins of some does not mean the whole is tainted and evil, we are not.

Cloyne shocked me , I just want to make sure that the church is learning and putting safeguards in place.

So far I have seen nothing.

raymon

Monty. wrote: »

You can try to twist and misrepresent my replies all you want. You cannot be un-baptised, un-confirmed, or un-ordained etc., it's just a plain fact. A Priest can be removed permanently from any form of ministry, another plain fact. That does not mean anyone condones anything or excuses anything a baptised or ordained person does or fails to do later. If you want to discuss clerical abuse and the cover up there is thread for that. I'm not going to feed off topic trolling here.

I am not trolling

raymon

ballsymchugh wrote: »

does the OP mean excommunication rather than defrocking??

Does excommunication mean that the priest is no longer a priest .

If that is the case then that is the course of action I was looking for