Corrib Gas Protest

Delancey

Remember the storm in a tea cup over the recording of a conversation between 2 Gardai who had arrested 2 female protestors ?

Ombudsman has reported the recording was tampered with prior to being handed over. I wonder if this will impact any civil actions ?

RTE story below

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0728/corrib.html

goldie fish

Its all a big state conspiracy you know. Its either SEPIL or Mossad.

Macha

Storm in a tea cup? What a lovely way to describe male Gardai with young women in custody joking about raping them.

As for the tampering, a good job of trying to discredit the victims in this. Certain parts of the tape were deleted by Maynooth College as the recordings were subject to confidentiality between interviews and the woman who had done the interviews for research purposes.

So how exactly, tell me, did this "alleged tampering" impact on the recording of what the Gardai said? Answer: it didn't. The entire recording of the day in question was untouched and handed over.

Bravo, Alan Shatter. Well done for protecting your own.

goldie fish

Macha wrote: »

Storm in a tea cup? What a lovely way to describe male Gardai with young women in custody joking about raping them.

As for the tampering, a good job of trying to discredit the victims in this. Certain parts of the tape were deleted by Maynooth College as the recordings were subject to confidentiality between interviews and the woman who had done the interviews for research purposes.

So how exactly, tell me, did this "alleged tampering" impact on the recording of what the Gardai said? Answer: it didn't. The entire recording of the day in question was untouched and handed over.

Bravo, Alan Shatter. Well done for protecting your own.

It changed the context of the comments greatly, apparently, however you seem to know more.
Did you find it strange that when the clip was leaked/released everyone was told to skip forward to the "joke"?

Macha

goldie fish wrote: »

It changed the context of the comments greatly, apparently, however you seem to know more.
Did you find it strange that when the clip was leaked/released everyone was told to skip forward to the "joke"?

In what way did it change the context of the comments? No recording from the tape of the day in question was removed. None of it. I don't even know what you're referring to when you say context.

No, I don't find it strange at all. The "joke" was the crux of the issue.

Delancey

My point in posting the story is that it is a fine example of ' all may not be what it seems to be '.
Fact is that evidence was tampered with before it passed into Garda / Ombudsman hands.

No need for a rehash of the great debate IMO.

goldie fish

Macha wrote: »

In what way did it change the context of the comments? No recording from the tape of the day in question was removed. None of it. I don't even know what you're referring to when you say context.

No, I don't find it strange at all. The "joke" was the crux of the issue.

So you are involved in this case more than others?

Macha

goldie fish wrote: »

So you are involved in this case more than others?

No I'm not.

Delancey - can you explain how the alleged tampering invalidates the evidence?

Bosh

Macha wrote: »

No recording from the tape of the day in question was removed. None of it.

How do you know?

uberwolf

Macha wrote: »

goldie fish wrote: »

So you are involved in this case more than others?

No I'm not.

Delancey - can you explain how the alleged tampering invalidates the evidence?

I don't believe that anyone doubts what the garda said. Afaik Witnesses state that the women were shouting rape and abuse as they were resisting garda instruction. This contextualises their comments, and as fast as I'm concerned no one has the right to have it both ways as is alleged. Deletion of elements of the tape which would have proved or disproved that contextualisation is a serious issue.

markpb

Macha wrote: »

No I'm not.

Delancey - can you explain how the alleged tampering invalidates the evidence?

Do you understand the significance of tampering with evidence in a Garda investigation? You don't get to remove bits that aren't important, you don't get to say that it's confidential and the Gardai can't hear it.

Macha

Bosh wrote: »

How do you know?

Because the "tampering" was clearly explained as the tape being property of Maynooth college who removed other material on the tape that was subject to data protection. All the recordings from the day in question were handed over untouched.

Shell To Sea stated that GSOC had received all recordings made on the day in question, but confirmed that university research data recorded some weeks earlier had been deleted in line with policy.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/video-backs-rape-claims-watchdog-16029279.html#ixzz1TTnzwlcX

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/video-backs-rape-claims-watchdog-16029279.html

uberwolf wrote: »

I don't believe that anyone doubts what the garda said. Afaik Witnesses state that the women were shouting rape and abuse as they were resisting garda instruction. This contextualises their comments, and as fast as I'm concerned no one has the right to have it both ways as is alleged. Deletion of elements of the tape which would have proved or disproved that contextualisation is a serious issue.

If it's true that they were shouting rape, I completely agree with you. I haven't heard any recording of that and again, what the news outlets are not reporting clearly is the fact that nothing from the day in question was deleted or tampered with.

Macha

markpb wrote: »

Do you understand the significance of tampering with evidence in a Garda investigation? You don't get to remove bits that aren't important, you don't get to say that it's confidential and the Gardai can't hear it.

You are completely misrepresenting what happened and who did it. It was NUI Maynooth that insisted that the research interviews were not handed over as they are subject to data protection.

Again, nothing from the day in question was deleted.

markpb

Macha wrote: »

You are completely misrepresenting what happened and who did it. It was NUI Maynooth that insisted that the research interviews were not handed over as they are subject to data protection.

Again, nothing from the day in question was deleted.

It doesn't matter. Once something is evidence in an investigation, no-one can tamper with it. If it's been tampered with, none of it is trustworthy - it's a basic tenant of law and a massive civil liberty protection.

Macha

markpb wrote: »

It doesn't matter. Once something is evidence in an investigation, no-one can tamper with it. If it's been tampered with, none of it is trustworthy - it's a basic tenant of law and a massive civil liberty protection.

It hasn't been tampered with. All recordings of the day in question were handed over. Recordings of interviews for the girl's college degree are not evidence. This is a total sham. I doubt anyone wanted the Gardai charged or a big investigation drawing it out of proportion. I am the first to defend the Gardai when friends of mine give out but I have been so disillusioned by this.

uberwolf

Macha wrote: »

Bosh wrote: »

How do you know?

Because the "tampering" was clearly explained as the tape being property of Maynooth college who removed other material on the tape that was subject to data protection. All the recordings from the day in question were handed over untouched.

Shell To Sea stated that GSOC had received all recordings made on the day in question, but confirmed that university research data recorded some weeks earlier had been deleted in line with policy.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/video-backs-rape-claims-watchdog-16029279.html#ixzz1TTnzwlcX

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/video-backs-rape-claims-watchdog-16029279.html

uberwolf wrote: »

I don't believe that anyone doubts what the garda said. Afaik Witnesses state that the women were shouting rape and abuse as they were resisting garda instruction. This contextualises their comments, and as fast as I'm concerned no one has the right to have it both ways as is alleged. Deletion of elements of the tape which would have proved or disproved that contextualisation is a serious issue.

If it's true that they were shouting rape, I completely agree with you. I haven't heard any recording of that and again, what the news outlets are not reporting clearly is the fact that nothing from the day in question was deleted or tampered with.

The irish times article today describes what I'm referring to.

Macha

uberwolf wrote: »

The irish times article today describes what I'm referring to.

I assume you're referring to the sentence

one garda “may have overheard one of the females using the word ‘rape’ during the course of their arrest, and prior to the word being used by any Garda member”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0729/1224301563965.html

May have overheard?

Edit: Apologies - I take your point. I don't think either side dealt with this very well and I do accept that this has been blown out of proportion. I take false accusations of rape seriously and if the women did indeed make a comment like they did before being arrested, I would be very angry as a Garda.

uberwolf

Sorry, on phone. :$

goldie fish

‘Rape tape’ was altered, says report

By Catherine Shanahan and Cormac O’Keeffe

Friday, July 29, 2011

A RECORDING examined as part of an investigation into allegations of inappropriate Garda behaviour during a Shell to Sea protest was tampered with before being handed to the Garda Ombudsman Commission, a report has found.

The recording, on which gardaí were alleged to have joked about raping two women arrested during the protest, was modified on four occasions on the eve of its confiscation, according to an interim report compiled by the commission.

The alterations included the deletion of six files overnight between April 13 and 14. Other files were created and overwritten on four occasions between 2.45am and 7.14am, the report said.

The women’s allegations of sexually offensive garda behaviour prompted an investigation by the Garda ombudsman and forced an apology early this year from the Garda commissioner for comments made.

The report, published yesterday by Justice Minister Alan Shatter, found no evidence of a criminal offence having been committed by any of the five gardaí heard on the so-called "rape tape" and while it warned that "disciplinary issues may arise" in the case of a garda and a sergeant, there was "no evidence of any breach of discipline by the three other gardaí".

It also criticised the level of co-operation provided to the investigation by a number of persons, "including some individuals associated through academic links with the two women" and said this "obstruction" of the commission would require further investigation.

Mr Shatter said that given the report had not ruled out disciplinary action, and given that it was still deliberating on issues relating to obstruction of GSOC officers, "it would not be right for me to make any further comment at this time".

However, he had earlier said that he understood there had been "an unfortunate lack of co-operation on the part of one of the people who made allegations and the commission expressed concern that material given to them to substantiate the allegations made was actually tampered with".

Shell to Sea, which opposes the Corrib gas project and supports the women, said it does not accept the recording was tampered with.

Shell To Sea said GSOC had received all recordings made on the day, but confirmed that university research data recorded some weeks earlier had been deleted, in line with policy.

The report said the woman who had not co-operated was overseas. The second woman attended for interview and has lodged a separate complaint concerning Garda conduct, aspects of which are under investigation.

The comments that led to the investigation were made during a conversation between five on-duty gardaí in a marked Garda vehicle on March 31. The five had been involved in the arrest of the two women — one of whom later identified herself as Jerrie Ann Sullivan, a postgraduate student from Dublin.

Their conversation was captured on a pocket camcorder seized from one of the women by gardaí during their arrest.

A garda had put it in his pocket, not realising it was still recording.

It was two weeks before the recording was retrieved by the Garda Ombudsman.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/rape-tape-was-altered-says-report-162606.html#ixzz1TUK6ek7t

JEINKINS12

Macha wrote: »

You are completely misrepresenting what happened and who did it. It was NUI Maynooth that insisted that the research interviews were not handed over as they are subject to data protection.

Again, nothing from the day in question was deleted.

You keep using the word tampering, if you were on trial for some offence and/or your job was at risk whould you be happy for anyone to TAMPER in any way with any evidence to be used against you?? and BTW how do you KNOW what they removed ? did you do the removing or are you relying on their press release. If you didn't do the removing then you know nothing of what or was not removed...

LeixlipRed

Macha, why even bother? Wait until tomorrow and the thread to follow the Tottenham riots to see that the majority of posters in this forum are of the opinion that policing is a tool to keep the great unwashed down. That people who complain about police brutality are "liberal pinkos" and should be ashamed to engage in protest of any way, shape or form. Essentially you'd have more joy trying to convince the Pope God doesn't exist.

chasm

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Macha, why even bother? Wait until tomorrow and the thread to follow the Tottenham riots to see that the majority of posters in this forum are of the opinion that policing is a tool to keep the great unwashed down. That people who complain about police brutality are "liberal pinkos" and should be ashamed to engage in protest of any way, shape or form. Essentially you'd have more joy trying to convince the Pope God doesn't exist.

I've been posting in the tottenham riots thread and i don't think anyone had issues with the actual protest did they? It was the rioting, looting and destruction of property that seems to be the issue. In my opinion the people engaging in that behaviour took away from what was a legitimate protest, and will have done their cause no favours. Truth be told, most of those rioters/looters/troublemakers probably didnt even know the family involved and just saw an opportunity to cause a bit of mayhem and get some stuff to flog on ebay.

Zambia

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Macha, why even bother? Wait until tomorrow and the thread to follow the Tottenham riots to see that the majority of posters in this forum are of the opinion that policing is a tool to keep the great unwashed down. That people who complain about police brutality are "liberal pinkos" and should be ashamed to engage in protest of any way, shape or form. Essentially you'd have more joy trying to convince the Pope God doesn't exist.

What on earth made you post this drivel? I actually would like to know?

Paulzx

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Macha, why even bother? Wait until tomorrow and the thread to follow the Tottenham riots to see that the majority of posters in this forum are of the opinion that policing is a tool to keep the great unwashed down. That people who complain about police brutality are "liberal pinkos" and should be ashamed to engage in protest of any way, shape or form. Essentially you'd have more joy trying to convince the Pope God doesn't exist.

What planet are you on?

The only function of policing is to control the brain washed masses?

You consider it acceptable to burn down half a high street, loot, burn buses and cars and engage in a night of mindless rioting as a legitimate form of protest?

Bosh

Don't feed the trolls..... :rolleyes:

Paulzx

The scary thing is that i don't think he is a troll:D

goldie fish

Bosh wrote: »

Don't feed the trolls..... :rolleyes:

That troll is a moderator ...:eek::eek::eek:

Hooch

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Macha, why even bother? Wait until tomorrow and the thread to follow the Tottenham riots to see that the majority of posters in this forum are of the opinion that policing is a tool to keep the great unwashed down. That people who complain about police brutality are "liberal pinkos" and should be ashamed to engage in protest of any way, shape or form. Essentially you'd have more joy trying to convince the Pope God doesn't exist.

You have been previously advised against trolling and previously infacted for such by me......please dont go down that road again.

Thanks
NGA

goldie fish wrote: »

That troll is a moderator ...:eek::eek::eek:

A moderator is just a poster like anyone else when out of their forum. Playing on them being a moderator.....its like saying the Gardaí in Waterford wore motorcycle helmets to conceal their identity;)

BrianD

I listened to the recording and what is on it is consistent of a continuous conversation. Nobody has seemed to have denied the conversation took place. So I think what was said was said and what most people heard online.

Where I'd imagine it was edited was if the word 'rape' was used by protestors while filming their protest prior to arrest and this is a really important factor. I'm sure that they would be keen to leave that off any tape as this may have triggered the reference to rape by the guard that's heard in the tape. Out of context, the remarks are inappropriate, wrong and just odd but less so and somewhat explained if the protestors had used the word themselves. The context is really important and a deleted file could explain this.

I don't buy the data privacy excuse either. This is evidence and both the ombudsman and courts would view these academic interviews as not relevant and the privacy would be respected.

Having listened to it a few months back, I don't think any right minded person would come to the conclusion that this was nothing more a private conversation - most of it mundane. The rape marks were inappropriate but definitely not a threat to any person.