Can't figure out what i'm doing wrong!

Angeles

Right, so I'm on possibly about 1000 games by now, yet still in gold.
Granted allot of those games are 2v2 plat, but its 1v1 i wanna focus on.
Is there anyone in the plat/diamond division that can explain how they got up there? was it by learning 3-8 specific builds and following them against each race?

Are there some additional keybind tricks perhaps i don't know about?
At a loss at this point.

Lafortezza

Post some replays where you think you did OK but still lost?

Decerto

Dunno what race you play because you didnt indicate but i learned 1 build for every matchup, pvz was 3gate sentry expo, pvt was 2gate robo expo and pvp was 4gate, None of the builds were flawless but from watching pro replays and streams and playing alot of ladder i started to optimize the builds more and more as weaknesses and flaws start to become apparent.

Just having those 3 set builds and playing them through on the ladder you dont need to focus on your opener as much and you start to learn things about the game, anytime you run into a cheese that destroys you or a unit composition you didnt scout and prepare for you watch the replay and adapt/adjust to that possibilty, Ideally you learn to scout better, get the right units out in the right time for certain pushes, and your micro and macro steadily improve

Only after having those builds mastered should you look at other funky stuff tbh

Post your race also and some specific problems if u want that help but in reality its soley build order/macro problems that keep 100% of people out of diamond

Zombrex

Angeles wrote: »

Right, so I'm on possibly about 1000 games by now, yet still in gold.
Granted allot of those games are 2v2 plat, but its 1v1 i wanna focus on.
Is there anyone in the plat/diamond division that can explain how they got up there? was it by learning 3-8 specific builds and following them against each race?

Are there some additional keybind tricks perhaps i don't know about?
At a loss at this point.

How are you losing your games, is it due to macro or micro?

UnholyGregor

learn 1 or 2 builds for every matchup, and do them game after game after game. Remember, if your not winning, its not the build thats the problem, its your execution. Below master league its all about execution, not what you do, its how you do it.

So keep your number of builds to a minimum, and learn them to perfection, so that no matter how crazy the game goes, you will be able to exxecute your build efficiently.

if your zerg, go 15 hatch 15pool 17 gas every game, into fast roaches if its zvz. speedling if terran or protoss.

protoss go 3gate expo every game Into robo (pvp 4gate)

terran go 2rax into fast command center every game.

When i say every game, i mean EVERY game. No exceptions. If you can do these builds well, you will get to diamond very fast.
If you lose a **** load, doesnt matter, every loss you will learn a small adjustment to execute the build better. dont just change build after one loss, who cares if you lose to a 6pool on ladder, just play consistently standard, until you have the build mastered, then you can start messing around with things.

Angeles

replay from one game attached
Now my plan was to go for a 15 hatch, was quickly prevented.
Anyway i play all classes, toss is probably my strongest but i'm really enjoying zerg at the moment.
i know my creep spread isn't too good at the moment but i douth that would matter much in this match, i just get split and destroyed when i go against toss so easily and can't actully come back from it.
Anyway thanks alot for some of the reply's, i think my biggest problem is build order

UnholyGregor

1st mistake: sent 6 workers to try stop him blocking expo. Just go 14 pool 18 hatch if your expo is blocked, its not that big a deal.

2nd mistake. Your expo was blocked, so instead of just getting 2 lings to kill the pylon, you throw down a macro hatch in your main (which you havnt even got the economy to utilise) and double gas into roaches. You then get speed, and roches, this is 5-6 mins into the game. You lose the game already. Its over. thats the most retarded opening iv ever seen, seriously, what was going through your head?
You are essentially all in at this point, if you dont kil the protoss before the 8min mark, just leave the game.

3rd mistake: You attack at 9mins, which is far too late, your opponent already has an immortal, zealots, stalkers and sentries. Your all in has failed, and you fall back, doing no damage. Its 12 mins into the game, and you're on equal harvesters and bases as a protoss, whos army is tailored to destroy yours, and you cant change your army comp, since your so heavily invested into roach ling, after your failed all in.

Then, you try attack into a choke at his natural. Worst thing you can do as zerg. Force fields make a joke of roach ling armies unless you find somewhere open to engage. You lose about 50 supply of roaches, and kill perhaps 3 zealots of his.

At this stage protoss has around 6 immortals, and you're still producing roaches. Admittedly, the game ended long ago, but you proceed to take the gold. 50 supply behind the toss. He a moves with 9immortals, and a **** load of staker sentry, and you have about 15 roaches and a few lings to defend.

Theres the main flaws in that game. Im gonna put it bluntly, its obvious that you made up your strategy as you went along, and didnt adapt to the game as it progressed, making roaches and lings (the worst possible comp v immortal stalker sentry) til the bitter end.



Heres what i woold have done if i was in your position. I see toss blocks my expo. I go 14pool and make 4lings to kill pylon and probe. I gasless expand and drone up very greedily, to set me up with a good midgame economy, as on xelnaga caverns, its very hard for zerg to secure a safe 3rd.
I get a fast 3rd queen for creep spread, and at about 35 supply, throw down roach warren and double gas. I go t2 with 1st 100 gas, and then, at at full 2base saturation, i make pure roaches, getting all 4 gases, as lair researches. I use spines and roaches to defend any pressure.

As soon as lair finishes (around 10 min mark) i throw down infestation pit, and keep up roach production. I get pathogen glands asap for infestors, and once thats 30 seconds researched, make infestors, as they will pop with the extra energy. Then i push with roaches, and about 4 infestors, and take my 3rd behind it. (should be about 12-13 min mark)

I go in first with one infestor to fungle the protoss army, which prevents sentries using force field, then engage with roaches, chain funlging the protoss army, and focising down the immortals with my roaches.

If I see that i cant kill his army, i fall back immediately, and drone up my third, and prevent protoss taking his third as long as possible. If he tries push off 2bases, just fungle him as he pushes over and over. this will buy you loads of time and should do significant damage to his army.


I get gold as soon as my 3rd is fully saturated, and then throw down a spire and go hive. As soon as hive finishes, morph greater spire, and get about 6 broodlords, if possible. Broolord infestor roach is the best zerg comp v protoss. If he has colossi, go very heavy on infestors, and get neural parasite. Use the roaches to meat shield the infestors, and np the colossi. If you can mind control the colossi in a good position, you will destroy his army, but its all about positioning.

theres nothing fundamentally wrong with your play, you know when to drone up, and seem to have a decent game sense, but your decision making it terrible. that roach ling all in was a horrendous idea, and once it failed, you were just digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hold trying to fight immortal stalker with roaches.

As i said in an earlier post, do one build over and over. 15 hatch. If its blocked, do the nearest thing possible, 14pool 18hatch. do not make those on the spot decisions like ''oh he blocked my expo, time to throw down 2 gases and a macro hatch'', until at least master league. You gotta learn the game very well before you have the appropriate knowledge to make on the fly changes to your strategy like that. Play as standard as possible, and you will get the best improvement results.

godspal

The key to advancing in SC2, scouting. You didn't drone scout at 14-15, you didn't sacrifice an o/l at 8 minutes to see what tech route they were going down (sacrificing 100 mins to win the game is nothing). You put down a Hydra Den, and 4 spore crawlers crawlers unnecessarily. A twilight council or dark shrine are what you are looking for when if you think dts are coming, and stargate for air.

Take UnHolygregor's advice, as Zerg its pretty priceless. Except the 15 Hatch, its very vulnerable to cheese and you don't have the micro to fend off early cheese efficiently. 14 pool 20 Hatch, 11 OverPool 20 Hatch (4 lings + 1 Queen) are both great builds that prevent early game cheese, and you could have had 2-4 lings out to kill that probe. (And I know UnHolyGregor "HATCH IS THE BEST BUILD!" Still very vulnerable to cheese)

Another thing you did is you did not saturate any of your bases. You CTRL+Click a drone you should count 20 drones when you have a saturated base (2 of your drones are in the extractors so that adds up to 22. Except gold which adds up to 16 on the drone CTRL-click count.)

15+ minutes and you take a 3rd, you should be taking your third way earlier. 10 min mark max. Zerg is a macro race. You should be one base ahead of your opponent at all times.

And if you want to win more games. Don't try to kill your opponent starve him. Prevent him from taking a 3rd indefinitely. The thing about zerg is, if you kill 3/4 of his army in the half-way point of the map, by the time he gets to your main/nat you should have a big enough army to crush the rest, so never try to finish off a turtler, just try to crush him economically. However your games will never be that short (only if he 1 bases all-ins you), but you'll win more.

Angeles

UnholyGregor wrote: »

Theres the main flaws in that game. Im gonna put it bluntly, its obvious that you made up your strategy as you went along, and didnt adapt to the game as it progressed, making roaches and lings (the worst possible comp v immortal stalker sentry) til the bitter end.

I think this hits the nail on the head, its my adaptave ability which is crushing me, that match i knew i had lost after the first attack which yes was late, but i felt so far behind and without knowledge of what the protoss is going to say feck it.. the hatch, was me worring about larva as i was doing nothing but drone spamming, but all points taken into account.

Have a look at this one, granted it a win but i generally put that down to the opposing player not being so good.
I'm actully really trying to improve and if possible would like as many flaws to be pointed out as possible

thanks alot for the advise so far.

godspal

Holy smokes that's a lot of early static defences. I can understand 2-3 Spines going down to prevent hellion harassment. But 5 seems excessive. You could have put down your third about 30 secs earlier.
You still didn't ov scout btw. I still can't understand why you overreacted so much.
A friend gave me advice about static defence against dropping terrans, and hellion harassment; "2 spines and a spore with a mobile army should keep your bases alive."

Also I have to question the Roach/Ling/Infestor build against Marine/Marauder/Tank. I think it was simply blind luck you won that initial battle, in a choke against 5 sieged tanks. Did he simply move click his army? Or did you have more upgrades then him? I don't know.

As for the early lair tech. I only lair tech on two bases if I plan to double expand straight away or in the process of double expanding, and I think I have real army lead. You need 3 saturated bases to support lair tech, thats 66 drones, I think by the time you were producing Ultras you had about 50. (Your 2 bases were over-saturated btw.)

I am only giving you advice other people have given me and I have tried to utilise. (I am gold as well... But I am trying to move on up!)

Positives, good creep spread, and ov spread. You had a lot of defensive vision. And your reactions were timely, if not a bit over-zealous.

Angeles

godspal wrote: »

that's a lot of early static defences. I can understand 2-3 Spines going down to prevent hellion harassment. But 5 seems excessive. You could have put down your third about 30 secs earlier.
You still didn't ov scout btw. I still can't understand why you overreacted so much.
A friend gave me advice about static defence against dropping terrans, and hellion harassment; "2 spines and a spore with a mobile army should keep your bases alive."

Unfortunately the spines where my only defense 5-6 min into the game, i knew by scouting he was going tech, only question was how fast, but yes probably an over reaction. I did the same build with 3 spines against a terran in a previous game and they died very swiftly to mega rax.

godspal wrote: »

Also I have to question the Roach/Ling/Infestor build against Marine/Marauder/Tank. I think it was simply blind luck you won that initial battle, in a choke against 5 sieged tanks. Did he simply move click his army? Or did you have more upgrades then him? I don't know.

I out upgraded him yes, but what do you suggest?

godspal wrote: »

As for the early lair tech. I only lair tech on two bases if I plan to double expand straight away or in the process of double expanding, and I think I have real army lead. You need 3 saturated bases to support lair tech, thats 66 drones, I think by the time you were producing Ultras you had about 50. (Your 2 bases were over-saturated btw.)

Did you mean Hive tech? I was under the impression lair on 2 base was pretty standard, especially if you wanna get infesters/muta's or detection which up to the 10 min point are all viable are they not?

I never knew or thought of using ctrl+click to find out the count of drones, that is something i will strongly put to use.

godspal

sorry yes, I meant hive.

Ling/Bling/Muta is good against Marine Marauder Tank.

Your scouting is terrible thats why you lost with the same build against a 3-4 rax build.
You should be reacting to builds not blinding putting down 5 spines. Okay you saw the tech, previous experience told you need defence. 8 minute OV would tell you if he is going Banshee, or Hellion, or tank. A single ling at his entrance might give you some indication when he is pushing out, and if you miss you can send in another single ling to get the unit composition.
If you think he was pushing out with lots of marines then, you could put down 3 more spine crawlers to defend your base.

You get tier 1 detection with spores btw.

Angeles

Do you or anyone have any links or reply's of a strong bling/muta build, preferably while under fast pressure.
I find myself larva starved to much of the time with that build.
Also at my level most games end by the 8-9 min mark, its why i'm not used to scouting at the 8 min.

I generally scout positioning in the first 1-3 mins but the only decent info from that is if they are rushing or not, and normally by the time i scout for the 5 min its walled by both races, i have allot less trouble in zvz because of this.
I could perhaps sacrifice an Overlord, but in majority of casses its shot down without any info that early in the game, other then what shot it down.

Angeles

godspal wrote: »

u need 3 saturated bases to support lair tech, thats 66 drones,

66 drones? hmm this is a huge problem fixed right there for me if this is the case.
I was under the impression it was 3 drones/scvs/probes per mineral patch.
8x3 = 24 + 6 for gas, so a fully saturated base is 30, or is this actually different per race?
cause 2x8 + 6 is a pretty severe difference to how i was playing.

UnholyGregor

Angeles wrote: »

Do you or anyone have any links or reply's of a strong bling/muta build

idra
http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29dSeleCT_vs_%28Z%29EGIdrA__sc2rep_com_20110604/9238

http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28T%29dSeleCT_vs_%28Z%29EGIdrA__sc2rep_com_20110604/9237

godspal

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/index.php?title=File:StarCraft_II_Zerg_Harvesting_Chart.jpg&filetimestamp=20100619133419

24 drones is full saturation of your base... but it differs from optimal saturation. 16 drones is optimal.
When you have 3 drones per mining patch, they have to move and wait, and the curve begins to plateau. For Terran and Toss this is fine, since they don't produce units (except workers) from their base, but zerg does, so optimal saturation is far more efficient for zerg than it is for any other race.