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Norwegian massacre
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27-07-2011 5:59pm#1
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I think you're putting too much weight on the idea of having a conversation with him will shed more light, anymore than his public statements and behaviour.
This isn't touchy feely CBT. It may be unethical not to make an analysis, and not to pass judgement. There needs to be a public discourse on this subject. God knows how many more ticking time bomb Breiviks are out there.
Thats the first time I've heard anyone call CBT toucy feely
Again I think its cocky as any kind of health professional to assume you know what someone was thinking purely based on behaviour. Of course a conversation would illict more information than just looking at what he has said on his websites. I haven't done research on it but it would appear to me that there can be huge discrepancies between people and their online persona's. I wouldn't be taking his bravado as all there is to him.
I think Dr. Dutton's comments paint psychology as this all seeing, all knowing kind of science, we know everything about what your thinking just by looking at you. When I tell people that I have studied psychology they automatically assume I am analysing them where they stand. Going on tv/radio and saying categorically you know what Breivik was thinking perpetuates this. (just my own personal grudge with the 'experts'
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But you are right about a need for discourse. Its important to discuss it, even on a societal level, as I'd imagine that this will have a big impact on the psyche of Oslo and the future generations. I would just say that it needs to be a responsible discourse.0 -
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Thats the first time I've heard anyone call CBT toucy feely
Well, y'know maybe it is. I'm a little suspicious of the idea. The idea that knowledge of something, or the recognition of something, is enough to resolve it in itself. Maybe if you take a depressed person and explore the realities of their life, the more they realise the more depressed they become.
I've known people who said CBT helped them. But I don't know if it made them any better. It may just be a nice experience.Again I think its cocky as any kind of health professional to assume you know what someone was thinking purely based on behaviour. Of course a conversation would illict more information than just looking at what he has said on his websites.
Are you sure. Or are you too sure. I think anyone looking at the writings and website stuff, and even the actions are not going to take them at face value. I'm not so sure about direct interviews either. Any interview Breivik is likely to give will, I would imagine, be as prepared as his websites and his Mein Kampf. He's possibly been rehearsing these interviews in his head for years. The mish mash of ideology may make him sound crazier than he is. Like captured Nazis after the war. If you at what they had to say, from one angle it looks like pure insanity. From another, no one would claim they were clinically insane.
Psychologists can fall into the trap of believing a particular method may be superior to another method. Like believing there's a sounder truth in the statistical analysis of questionnaires. Patterns may be revealed, certain statistical rules may say the patterns are significant. But they could be there for all the wrong reasons.I haven't done research on it but it would appear to me that there can be huge discrepancies between people and their online persona's. I wouldn't be taking his bravado as all there is to him.
You can't take anything he has to say at face value. There can be a huge discrepancy between an online persona, and one in the real world. That's very telling too.I think Dr. Dutton's comments paint psychology as this all seeing, all knowing kind of science, we know everything about what your thinking just by looking at you.
It's the power of authority. A doctor goes on the radio, an people make automatic assumptions. And some of those awful celebrity psychologists go on television - speak total crap and everyone still hangs on their every word.When I tell people that I have studied psychology they automatically assume I am analysing them where they stand. Going on tv/radio and saying categorically you know what Breivik was thinking perpetuates this. (just my own personal grudge with the 'experts')
I'm not a psychologist. But through my life experiences of coming up against people with reasonably severe clinical depression, who are borderline psychotic - I have an uncanny ability to predict their irrational behaviour. As there always seems to be a perverse logic to their paranoia, or the way they act up - that once you get the gist of them, they become more predictable than people who have no mental health problems. And thinking of the conversations I've had with mental health professionals over the years - insanity nearly works like clockwork. That doesn't mean anyone can easily fix the clock. Or even understand how or why it's broken.
You can have literature academics who are neither trained psychologists or psychoanalysts, publishing papers and books discussing particular areas and periods of literature in terms of the death drive. An analysis is an analysis. On the other hand, a psychologist or a psychoanalyst may know very little about art and literature. You have to try take things for what you think they're worth - and with as much salt as you think appropriate.But you are right about a need for discourse. Its important to discuss it, even on a societal level, as I'd imagine that this will have a big impact on the psyche of Oslo and the future generations. I would just say that it needs to be a responsible discourse.
It's not just a problem for Oslo. Had a Breivik got that bomb into a much busier city centre, he could have killed hundreds of people. There's plenty of similarities between him and David Copeland, the London nailbomber.
Spree killers are very hard to detect. And they're very rarely captured alive.
Charles Whitman, the Texas University shooter. He had actually been seeing the university psychiatrist. And he told the psychiatrist he had a fantasy of climbing to the top of the university water tower and shooting people. The psychiatrist dismissed this as being unimportant - because, believe it or not, it was a very common fantasy of the students who came to see him.0 -
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There is a lot coming out on him. I'd just expect more tell tale signs - more trouble around him.
Why would you expect that? Where are you getting your knowledge of psychopathy, mental health, criminology or whatever from? I've said it before and you've agreed yourself - many or most psychopaths go undetected all the time. Why would there be more signs?That's true but narcissism is very common. I think we're living in the most narcissist period of all time.
Yes, but pathological narcissism is different to just being a narcissistic wánker.No, he has public claimed he used computer games to train himself - I can't remember the name of the game. He was also a huge fan of World of Warcraft.
And you believe him? He claimed he played Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 to "train" himself, which is ridiculous. Have you played the game? CoD would teach him to point a gun-shaped magic wand in the general direction of the "brown people", growing your limbs back and achieving full convalescence by having a bit of a sit-down, and I'm sure he knows this. I wouldn't be surprised if Breivic said this as an homage to its "realism"I really don't like World of Warcraft, and I think and it's not just me, I've spoken to several people who've noticed it has a weird effect on peoples personalities. It kind of gives them a strange effect. It's weird having a conversation with them. They make unusual pauses in their speech - and their faces go blank as well, in an unusual way. I am not the first and only person to notice this.
I'm a relatively big video game player (I'm not a "gamer" though!) and even I have a bit of an issue with WoW because it's so addictive. I don't believe it "changes" someone's personality, but I do agree it has a major detrimental effect on people's socialisation if left unchecked. I certainly don't think it causes people to pick up a gun and open up.Of course I'm making assumptions. I'm speculating. I believe he has said something along the lines he used the music to help him concentrate.
Again, of course he would say that. He's not going to tell people he's doing it to be epic. When I want to concentrate I listen to classical or light piano music, when I'm about to go into a Judo competition I listen to heavy metal or the Star Fox theme. I don't need to be morbid, but you don't need to concentrate when opening fire on a huge group of unarmed teenagers. The problem is that you're making assumptions as if with absolute certainty.They don't have to be sadists. But they lack the empathy to stop them. Sadism doesn't upset or sicken them.
Sure, and I reckon that fits fairly well with Breivik. Let's not forget, he opened fire on a group of predominantly white teenagers - I find it hard to believe he had to actively dehumanise them first.I believe most psychopaths are never diagnosed as psychopaths. And never find their way into a clinical setting.
I believe, in my life I have only met two psychopaths. One committed serious crime. The other did not. The one who did not, I know where he is right now. He's not a criminal and has a mid-level managerial position. But if you fall into his orbit, and he turns on you, he will go to extreme lengths to turn your life upside - all without breaking the law. He superficial, he's glib, he has a shallow effect. There was something about him that gave me a sick stomach when I was around him - and few other people I knew felt the same. But most people were taken in by him.
But I get the impression you don't know a whole lot about what a psychopath is outside of a wikipedia and DSM search. That's not a stab at you, I'm just not entirely sure I trust your understanding of a psychopath, psychotic etc.Well that's what he's said. I do know of psychopaths going on killing sprees - but there seems to be a difference to it. I think they may do it with different purposes in mind.
Where are you getting this from? Anyway, another important thing about spree killers is that they're very, very rarely caught alive; they usually turn the gun on themselves. It's difficult to diagnose a corpse with any psychological disorder.There are mainstream journalists - like Melanie Philips who are writing crap that's not very far from Breivik.
There's even been a trickle of public figures defending his ideology.
None of them opened fire on innocents.I don't know.
What do you mean? You don't know if psychology is more than "tell me about your mother" or you don't know whether we should just take what he says for granted?When you have a hammer in your hand, everything looks like a nail.
So, are you just skeptical of psychologists in general? As I said, when Odysseus sees a patient who would benefit from another form of treatment, he claims he refers them.Lots of trolls are actually white supremacists.
Sure, and lots of white supremacists are white supremacists.I'm talking from personal experience. I've had experiences with mentally ill people who devolped elabourate parnoid fantaisies - with me plotting against them and wrecking their lives. Like a farmer - who I haven't met since or had anything to do with since I was a teenager, believed I was sneaking onto his land at night to mess up his farm.
That's very limited experience. If I've had experience with 10 Alzheimer's Disease patients and they all really, really liked jam, it would be irresponsible of me to claim that all Alzheimer's patients like jam.What's weird with psychosis is the similarity of symptoms in different people. A psychiatrist I knew who had been working as a psychiatrist for a long time. He was sensitive to obscure little things his patients might do or say, that would make him aware of some little pecularity with the effect of the medication or what the patient was experiencing.
Again, this is based on limited experience. My experience with people with schitzophrenia indicates to me that they all seemed to think I was a vampire. This is very true, but I only ever met two people with schitzophrenia. It's an availability heuristic, and I'm aware that not all people with schitzophrenia think I'm a vampire.There is another important side to this. Someone like Breivik further stigmatise people mental health problems.
Nah, I don't think so. I've said it a few times - I'm not convinced one way or the other. He may be a psychopath, he may just be an asshole; I don't know. Even if he is diagnosed with something, I can't see the public stimgatising people with mental health issues.What this could be. Is not a question of mental health. But genuine political and philosophical malignancy.
Crucially, I think the accusations of insanity in the case of Breivik are being used to dismiss his philosophy and politics. A cosy middle-class muesli munching way of dealing with problems that are very hard to stomach. The ideology of Breivik, and his fellow travelers, can not be defeated by arguing racism is wrong because it's impolite. Or by dismissing it as crazy.
I'm not saying I completely disagree with you - my issue is that you seem so sure of your opinions despite very little knowledge of mental health outside of your personal anecdotes. I'm only playing devil's advocate for the most part, but I won't make up my mind based on what little information we have available. To claim one way or the other at the moment is just arrogant.The "insights" in CBT are supposed to come by the subject meandering their way into them.
Like somewhere in your belly button is the answer to all of life's problems.
Wait a minute, do you actually know how CBT works?0 -
TrollHammaren wrote: »Why would you expect that? Where are you getting your knowledge of psychopathy, mental health, criminology or whatever from? I've said it before and you've agreed yourself - many or most psychopaths go undetected all the time. Why would there be more signs?
I've been reading anything of Robert O'hare's I could get my hands on for years. I believe I have had personal experiences with psychopaths. They go undetected because they're not psychotic like schizophrenics - they're not babbling in the streets. They seem perfectly sane - to a point.
And I have spoken to people with degrees in psychology, who've told me, never once as part of their studies did they broach psychopaths. As it's considered a specialised area of abnormal psychology.Yes, but pathological narcissism is different to just being a narcissistic wánker.
They're not the same thing. But being a narcissistic wanker is not simply about going 'mirror, mirror, on the wall'. There's much more to it. We meet narcissistic **** all the time. People who bull**** - ever prick a hole in a bull****ters bull****, by accident or on purpose - see them fly into a narcissistic rage (or more usually, a passive aggressive generalised 'I'm going to get you back for that'). These people aren't sick. Normal wouldn't be a good term - common would.And you believe him? He claimed he played Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 to "train" himself, which is ridiculous. Have you played the game? CoD would teach him to point a gun-shaped magic wand in the general direction of the "brown people", growing your limbs back and achieving full convalescence by having a bit of a sit-down, and I'm sure he knows this. I wouldn't be surprised if Breivic said this as an homage to its "realism"
I don't know. I know they train American rifle men with computer simulations. And it greatly improves their accuracy - and possibly their responses. Maybe Breivik had a rifle or gun games controller.I'm a relatively big video game player (I'm not a "gamer" though!) and even I have a bit of an issue with WoW because it's so addictive. I don't believe it "changes" someone's personality, but I do agree it has a major detrimental effect on people's socialisation if left unchecked. I certainly don't think it causes people to pick up a gun and open up.
I'm not saying WoW does cause people to pick up a gun and shoot people. I do think it can have a strong effect on their socialisation. As I've said, it's not just me who's noticed it.Again, of course he would say that. He's not going to tell people he's doing it to be epic. When I want to concentrate I listen to classical or light piano music, when I'm about to go into a Judo competition I listen to heavy metal or the Star Fox theme. I don't need to be morbid, but you don't need to concentrate when opening fire on a huge group of unarmed teenagers. The problem is that you're making assumptions as if with absolute certainty.
You're speculating the choice of music is for the sake of being epic. I'm saying he may have used it to block out the screams. You know, we could be both right and both wrong at the same time.Sure, and I reckon that fits fairly well with Breivik. Let's not forget, he opened fire on a group of predominantly white teenagers - I find it hard to believe he had to actively dehumanise them first.
A known problem with soldiers. It's very hard to get them to actually kill anyone. They fire high. To get them to kill you often have to desensitize them - put some level of separation in.
It's easy to shoot a deer - it's very hard to shoot Bambi's mother.But I get the impression you don't know a whole lot about what a psychopath is outside of a wikipedia and DSM search. That's not a stab at you, I'm just not entirely sure I trust your understanding of a psychopath, psychotic etc.
Do you think you could get everyone who works in mental health - from psychoanalysts to psychiatric nurses to agree on what is a psychotic, and what isn't.Where are you getting this from? Anyway, another important thing about spree killers is that they're very, very rarely caught alive; they usually turn the gun on themselves. It's difficult to diagnose a corpse with any psychological disorder.
Why does Kevin Dutton say so? It's his point on the clip that started this thread.Re: Melanie Philips
None of them opened fire on innocents.
They haven't. But where does their ideology lead.What do you mean? You don't know if psychology is more than "tell me about your mother" or you don't know whether we should just take what he says for granted?
Why would you take what anyone says for granted.So, are you just skeptical of psychologists in general? As I said, when Odysseus sees a patient who would benefit from another form of treatment, he claims he refers them.
I'm not skeptical of psychologists in general. There is skepticism within psychology itself. We're talking about something that has gone through radical developments over the last hundred years.Sure, and lots of white supremacists are white supremacists.
Is there a pathology to it. Or are white supremacists just people with an unusual hobby. And it's not just a psychological reason. There's political and cultural dimensions to it.That's very limited experience. If I've had experience with 10 Alzheimer's Disease patients and they all really, really liked jam, it would be irresponsible of me to claim that all Alzheimer's patients like jam.
I'm not in a position to argue this with you. Just going on what has been said to me, by a psychiatrist with many years experience, that there is an uncanny repetition in delusions and symptoms of psychotics - and with the medications. He had a problem with other psychiatrists he was working with. Their patients would report certain symptoms. Something like formication with a twist. The other psychiatrists would often dismiss what their patients were saying as just being part of their condition, and not releaise their patients were going through a specific bad reaction to their drugs. The condition of patients of the other psychiatrists would deteriorate - he would be asked to take a look, and often he'd find a problem in the medication the others had missed.Again, this is based on limited experience. My experience with people with schitzophrenia indicates to me that they all seemed to think I was a vampire. This is very true, but I only ever met two people with schitzophrenia. It's an availability heuristic, and I'm aware that not all people with schitzophrenia think I'm a vampire.
But there might be an interesting reason why they think you're a vampire.
My experience with paranoid manic depressives, is I meet them briefly, and then I find out, even years later, they have elabourate fantasies about me secretly screwing their lives up. There's something about me, that's triggering this. Like there could be something specific about you and schizophrenics thinking you're a vampire. It could be because there's something about you that makes them think of buffy the vampire slayer.
People, including schizophrenics, are really stupid. They form strong opinions for the most superficial reasons. People form opinions on your mental function and motivations just on meeting you. The average person walks around the place thinking they know what's going through someone's head just by looking at them.Nah, I don't think so. I've said it a few times - I'm not convinced one way or the other. He may be a psychopath, he may just be an asshole; I don't know. Even if he is diagnosed with something, I can't see the public stimgatising people with mental health issues.
Mental health is hugely stigmatised. It's one of the most common tropes for evil and violence in cinema. Sane people are good and polite and never commit acts of violence and cruelty. Whereas insane people do.I'm not saying I completely disagree with you - my issue is that you seem so sure of your opinions despite very little knowledge of mental health outside of your personal anecdotes. I'm only playing devil's advocate for the most part, but I won't make up my mind based on what little information we have available. To claim one way or the other at the moment is just arrogant.
The thing is, at the minute everyone is speculating. At the minute, there's an argument raging over Breiviks mental state. If he's clinically insane, then that's one thing, and it's the end of the story in a way. If he's not. And if this event has been driven by ideology and politics - there could be a very serious problem.Wait a minute, do you actually know how CBT works?
It works?0 -
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