Local Authority Mergers - what next?

invinciblePRSTV

So following on from the proposal to amalgamate the 2 Limerick Councils last month is the news that the multiple Tipperary & Waterford councils are to be merged into single entities.

The proposed new property tax should be the base from which Irish Local Government is given increased powers and responsibilities in line with LA's around Europe whereby their ability to finance themselves means a greater level of services can be provided in a more efficient manner then through central government.

But this can only be achieved with appropriate economies of scales in LA's based on a sizeable population being present in each authority with which a suitable level of services can be offered.

To that end, I'd enhance The Ministers proposals by creating council area's so large in size and population that it'll take more to gain election then a bunch of locals voting for the local village cute hoor backwoodsmen.

Greater Dublin Area Council

- encompassing the city & county of Dublin, North Wicklow, North Kildare & S & E Meath.

South East Council

- Waterford, Wexford, South Wicklow, Kilkenny, Carlow & South Tipp

South West Council

- Cork & South Kerry

Mid-West Council

- Limerick, Clare, North Tipp, North Kerry

West & Border Council

- Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Donegal

Midlands & Border Council

- Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Cavan, Monaghan, N & W Meath, Louth

This would be taken in tandem with the abolition/reform of the Town Council structure and a reduction in the numbers of local representatives. Suggestions anyone?

Cookie_Monster

Dublin City Council
Cork City Council
Galway City Council
Limerick City Council

Munster Regional Council
Ulster Regional Council
Lienster Regional Council
Connaught Regional Council


from the stupid number there are now down to eight. Removes a massive staff and resource duplication, will aid removal of localisms in politics and generally cuts costs.

anymore

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

So following on from the proposal to amalgamate the 2 Limerick Councils last month is the news that the multiple Tipperary & Waterford councils are to be merged into single entities.

The proposed new property tax should be the base from which Irish Local Government is given increased powers and responsibilities in line with LA's around Europe whereby their ability to finance themselves means a greater level of services can be provided in a more efficient manner then through central government.

But this can only be achieved with appropriate economies of scales in LA's based on a sizeable population being present in each authority with which a suitable level of services can be offered.

To that end, I'd enhance The Ministers proposals by creating council area's so large in size and population that it'll take more to gain election then a bunch of locals voting for the local village cute hoor backwoodsmen.

Greater Dublin Area Council

- encompassing the city & county of Dublin, North Wicklow, North Kildare & S & E Meath.

South East Council

- Waterford, Wexford, South Wicklow, Kilkenny, Carlow & South Tipp

South West Council

- Cork & South Kerry

Mid-West Council

- Limerick, Clare, North Tipp, North Kerry

West & Border Council

- Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Donegal

Midlands & Border Council

- Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Longford, Cavan, Monaghan, N & W Meath, Louth

This would be taken in tandem with the abolition/reform of the Town Council structure and a reduction in the numbers of local representatives. Suggestions anyone?

Giving Local Authorities access to new streams of revenue without imposing reform and forcing them to establish efficent and effective labour/work practices is the height of insanity particularily at a time of recession. Economically it is far more effective to allow citizens to spend the monies that any property tax will generate rather than pouring it down the drain that is our Local Authorities. :eek:

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Dublin City Council
Cork City Council
Galway City Council
Limerick City Council

Munster Regional Council
Ulster Regional Council
Lienster Regional Council
Connaught Regional Council


from the stupid number there are now down to eight. Removes a massive staff and resource duplication, will aid removal of localisms in politics and generally cuts costs.

I fail to see how Galway City could justify having a equal status to the entirety of Leinster outside Dublin. The sheer gap in size and population would be too much.

Welease

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Dublin City Council
Cork City Council
Galway City Council
Limerick City Council

Munster Regional Council
Ulster Regional Council
Lienster Regional Council
Connaught Regional Council


from the stupid number there are now down to eight. Removes a massive staff and resource duplication, will aid removal of localisms in politics and generally cuts costs.

In theory..

However, as with most Irish implementations it is more likely to follow the design of the HSE whereby we duplicate roles and add in extra layers of administration to keep the current resources intact irrespective of the actual need.

MadsL

Dublin City Council
Cork City Council
Galway City Council
Limerick City Council

Munster Regional Council
Ulster Regional Council
Lienster Regional Council
Connaught Regional Council

No!! for god's sake devolve local adminstration locally - just provide shared services arrangements at the regional level - we need more proper local government by communities to accountable representives - just get rid of the overpaid officials in local government. Let communities decide what they need at the local level and support them with task forces.

Vizzy

Ireland has the poulation of Greater Manchester which has one Local Authority.
We should now move to have one Super Authority.













It should be based in Sneem or Letterfrack though.

mikemac

You'll never merge North and South Tipp, they've been separate since the 19th century.
Not even independence in the 1920's could bring them together!

ILikeBananas

Does this mean that from now on Limerick, Tipp and Waterford will have only one vehicle registration plate like the other 23 counties?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

ILikeBananas wrote: »

Does this mean that from now on Limerick, Tipp and Waterford will have only one vehicle registration plate like the other 23 counties?

Hopefully. Its silly that they have separate reg numbers, when Dublin only has 'D'.

Vizzy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Hopefully. Its silly that they have separate reg numbers, when Dublin only has 'D'.

Yeah its very unfair that big counties like Dublin and Gaway have only one letter and a small places like Leitrim and Louth get two :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I fail to see how Galway City could justify having a equal status to the entirety of Leinster outside Dublin. The sheer gap in size and population would be too much.

well remove it then, even more saved.

Welease wrote: »

In theory..

However, as with most Irish implementations it is more likely to follow the design of the HSE whereby we duplicate roles and add in extra layers of administration to keep the current resources intact irrespective of the actual need.

well yes, that would have to be overcome for the above to actually work at all and it'd never be done with the bureaucracy and the unions and self interested politicians

MadSL wrote:

No!! for god's sake devolve local administration locally - just provide shared services arrangements at the regional level - we need more proper local government by communities to accountable representatives - just get rid of the overpaid officials in local government. Let communities decide what they need at the local level and support them with task forces.

no, we need a huge huge reduction in government numbers. There is simply no point having town councillors, local councillors, local authorities for every county etc the place is just to small to justify all these pointless jobs for the sake of jobs. Waste of time, money and resources. Stream line it all way way down to a single management structure for each fo the 7 or 8 areas I noted with assets and staff strategically located around the regions as required rather than strictly limited by county borders.

bijapos

I agree with that OP, I proposed something similar a couple of years ago. There should be between 5 and 8 larger councils with full time elected representatives on them. These should also be the 8 constituencies for the GE.

I think that we need a more local level, call them "community councils". A parish/town with a little a 1,000 people ahould have the right to set one up, the reps should be paid no more than a flat rate of say €200 pa for phones etc. A certain proportion of property tax and rates earned within this area should be given to these community councils.

mikemac wrote: »

You'll never merge North and South Tipp, they've been separate since the 19th century.
Not even independence in the 1920's could bring them together!

To hell with that. Counties should have no more significance any more apart from GAA. You have to look 20, 40, 60 years down the line. If it means for practical resons splitting an existing county in two to put it into two different councils then do so.

goose2005

Vizzy wrote: »

Ireland has the poulation of Greater Manchester which has one Local Authority.
We should now move to have one Super Authority.

Manchester is a city, not a country - it would be better to compare us to Czech R or Norway. Anyway, we already have one super authority, local govt has no power.

Nijmegen

So we're going to merge local authorities to seek efficiency.

And we won't make any of the employees - presumably now with doubled up staff in some areas for a workload that is not double, thanks to said efficiency - redundant, I take it.

Sigh.

Riskymove

Vizzy wrote: »

Ireland has the poulation of Greater Manchester which has one Local Authority.

that comparison is thrown around a lot, but its a bit simplistic isn't it

Greater Manchester may have the same population but is in a much smaller area of land and requires very different management as a result

Hopefully. Its silly that they have separate reg numbers, when Dublin only has 'D'.

Dublin City Council oversees motor tax for all the Dublin CCs, that is why there is just 'D'

anymore

Riskymove wrote: »

that comparison is thrown around a lot, but its a bit simplistic isn't it

Greater Manchester may have the same population but is in a much smaller area of land and requires very different management as a result



Dublin City Council oversees motor tax for all the Dublin CCs, that is why there is just 'D'

Is it not something of a contradiction to call the compariosn simplistic and then just say " Greater Manchester may have the same population but is in a much smaller area of land and requires very different management as a result " ?

Riskymove

anymore wrote: »

Is it not something of a contradiction to call the compariosn simplistic and then just say " Greater Manchester may have the same population but is in a much smaller area of land and requires very different management as a result " ?

huh?

my point is its a lot easier to manage a smaller area with the same population

roads, transport, planning, all sorts of services would be much easier to organise and operate in an area the size of manchester than the entire Irish State

Overheal

You need to do something. Limerick doesn't need 2 councils either. THAT is a joke.

Riskymove

Overheal wrote: »

Limerick doesn't need 2 councils either. THAT is a joke.

they are being merged too


I think we should get rid of the Town councils and merge authorities where it makes sense as with Tipp and Limerick

MadsL

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, we need a huge huge reduction in government numbers. There is simply no point having town councillors, local councillors, local authorities for every county etc the place is just to small to justify all these pointless jobs for the sake of jobs. Waste of time, money and resources. Stream line it all way way down to a single management structure for each fo the 7 or 8 areas I noted with assets and staff strategically located around the regions as required rather than strictly limited by county borders.

You are missing my point, I said devolve to the local level - in other words allow communities to make informed decisions and then apply services (outsourced and put to tender) through contractors or task forces.

unit 1

MadsL wrote: »

You are missing my point, I said devolve to the local level - in other words allow communities to make informed decisions and then apply services (outsourced and put to tender) through contractors or task forces.

The problem with the above solution is that this did happen with certain services already, eg group water schemes and deflector tv services. The result quite frankly was disasterous. With water it led to poorly designed and substandard schemes which cocos are now finding out as they become responsible for taking them over.
With deflector tv it led to a substandard intermittent service (where I live anyway) that quite frankly was'nt worth paying for.

While the above idea sounds good at first glance, the idea that "local" communities (whoever decides who they are) could agree on anything of consequence when many neighbours probably could'nt agree whether it was raining or not is optimistic in the extreme.

Nijmegen

unit 1 wrote: »

The problem with the above solution is that this did happen with certain services already, eg group water schemes and deflector tv services. The result quite frankly was disasterous. With water it led to poorly designed and substandard schemes which cocos are now finding out as they become responsible for taking them over.
With deflector tv it led to a substandard intermittent service (where I live anyway) that quite frankly was'nt worth paying for.

While the above idea sounds good at first glance, the idea that "local" communities (whoever decides who they are) could agree on anything of consequence when many neighbours probably could'nt agree whether it was raining or not is optimistic in the extreme.

A poorly managed local system or a poorly managed central system, you're probably right, a central system is better.

But why do we accept poorly managed?

Well managed localities seem to run very well in Germany, Sweden, France... Etc etc etc.

MadsL

Here's a good example;

http://www.countriesquest.com/europe/switzerland/government/local_government.htm

A concern for self-government is firmly established in Switzerland, and units of local government are at the core of the country’s system of decentralized democracy. All powers not delegated to the confederation by the Swiss constitution are reserved to the cantons. Forms of cantonal government vary, but most of the 26 cantons (there are 20 full cantons and six half-cantons) have an elected legislative council and an executive council. Several smaller cantons have preserved direct democracy in the form of a Landsgemeinde (German for “village community”), a general assembly of voting citizens who decide matters by a show of hands or voice vote.

Each canton is composed of communes, the smallest units of local government. There are some 3,000 communes in Switzerland, many of which comprise a town or city. Citizens elect their communal authorities, who convene in local councils. Communes are largely autonomous in many governmental matters. They have the authority to levy taxes; maintain local roads, bridges, and public buildings; provide water and electricity; and administer primary and secondary schools, police and fire services, and social services. In addition, the communes—not the federal government—control the granting of Swiss citizenship to foreigners. Adjacent communes may group into a district, which is headed by a prefect who represents the cantonal government.

Vizzy

MadsL wrote: »

Here's a good example;

http://www.countriesquest.com/europe/switzerland/government/local_government.htm

A concern for self-government is firmly established in Switzerland, and units of local government are at the core of the country’s system of decentralized democracy. All powers not delegated to the confederation by the Swiss constitution are reserved to the cantons. Forms of cantonal government vary, but most of the 26 cantons (there are 20 full cantons and six half-cantons) have an elected legislative council and an executive council. Several smaller cantons have preserved direct democracy in the form of a Landsgemeinde (German for “village community”), a general assembly of voting citizens who decide matters by a show of hands or voice vote.

Each canton is composed of communes, the smallest units of local government. There are some 3,000 communes in Switzerland, many of which comprise a town or city. Citizens elect their communal authorities, who convene in local councils. Communes are largely autonomous in many governmental matters. They have the authority to levy taxes; maintain local roads, bridges, and public buildings; provide water and electricity; and administer primary and secondary schools, police and fire services, and social services. In addition, the communes—not the federal government—control the granting of Swiss citizenship to foreigners. Adjacent communes may group into a district, which is headed by a prefect who represents the cantonal government.

I thought that you were in favour of reducing public sector numbers.
We have only 85 local authorities in Ireland,one central Health Board,one Central Government and you are now in favour of having some sort of representative council in every village in the country ?
What will all this cost?

I'm confused

amen

Off topic but if the Councils are merged what about the VECs in each county and what about the impact of the merged VECs if they are meant to be running the new FAS?

MadsL

you are now in favour of having some sort of representative council in every village in the country ?
What will all this cost?

Isn't that the rub, everyone wants a piece of the gravy train. Why wouldn't you give up one/two nights a week for the community good on a rotation basis? Should you be paid for it? There are hundreds of GAA volunteers who do the same for no pay.

So, in answer, why should it cost any more??

Vizzy

MadsL wrote: »

So, in answer, why should it cost any more??

Cos I am assuming that the system would have to be administered by somebody.

Are you not simply arguing for an expanded Town Council/City Council system with all the problems that come with it ?

MadsL

No, I'm arguing for a community-led rather than developer-led, politically influenced, all vested interests catered for, fingers in the pie, "system".

Why should that cost any more? The system is already appallingly administered at massive cost.

What if our communities decided how much to spend on resurfacing roads, putting up signs, planting parks, fixing water leaks etc etc

What if, dear god, we had local taxation and locals decided how to spend that money??

Or am I just getting blasphemous now?