Preparing an 'Im having gender reasignment letter'

Freiheit

Not quite a coming out letter, I'm out about 5 years,but I wasn't sure then exactly what I wanted. Did I just want to live as a feminine man, I wasn't sure,I'm still not entirely sure what I consider myself. In truth I vary and there's nothing wrong with that. Have been seeing a therapist for nearly four years and already once been to Loughlinstown but didn't pursue treatment at that point.

However family hoped that I wouldn't pursue gender reassignment. Theyv'e made me feel like I'm doing something wrong just by being myself and I'm increasingly resentful of that.

Anyway I've decided to tell them,very belatedly,I'm now aged 32, that I'm starting the process of gender reassignment this autumn. I may be made homeless as a result and there's no obvious place for me to go. I may face extremely hostile emails and phone calls,in truth I'm somewhat intimidated by certain family members and always have been. So I feel afraid but I can't dither and let the uncertainty go on any longer.

Think gender reassignment is for the best and is necessary for me to happy,I don't know whether that will involve a penis or not. As mentioned before it might not be easy being a woman with a penis. I could fall at many points along the way but I'm just incredibly sad with the way life is going at the moment and the uncertainty about will I transition or not is contributing.

So I'm typing an email and will send it to a few family members over the next few days and I am afraid,afraid of their anger and aggression which I've faced in the past. But at least things will be clear and I can no longer go on any longer as things are now........:(:(:(

Shakti

I get the impression your living with your parent/s, siblings at the moment and are relying on them for accommodation/support. Its totally up to you but maybe you should have your own place sorted out before you tell them if you think transitioning will make you homeless. I think transitioning could be less stressful for you if you have your own space.

Freiheit

Does the route of 'uping sticks' to another town work?....Seriously though I'l be ok, I might be made homeless but I can support myself at least short term elsewhere,I'm not really dependant on anyone 'for food',it's more emotional.....but how do you develope a life in a new town,without a job,at least initially?....

I have to create clarity that I am pursuing gender reassignment and will do whatever it takes, take whatever risks necessary. I have to spell that out.

I was always pursuing my form of transition,I just wasn't sure what it involved...

I'm stronger now ,have firmer beliefs,I should be able to handle verbal assault better,because I've now got very strong self esteem,but there'l still be anxiety....possibly quite a bit.

Freiheit

Edit**** after a nights sleep. I'm still not sure on the issue of full gender reassignment,but a letter as to my intentions is necessary. Because I don't want to be tied into family roles which I'm unable to fuflill.

I did send one about a year and a half ago and I simply got no response as though it never happened.

I've become increasingly flippant about gender the past few years,my gender to me is almost irrelevant. It's expression that matters, at some point it may be appropriate to have my documentation match my optical appearance but that's for the future. I view myself as a person,whose body currently has a penis attached,if that make's me a man so be it but as said in a previous thread I believe in the right of everyone to choose their own identity.

I need to try to clarify things,but that attitude isn't easy to explain to the untrained mind...thats the challenge eh?.

Does anyone else here have similar fluid views on gender/sexuality here?. Anyone here identify as queer or bigender?. I'm not sure whether to use the term bigender and bisexual myself,but there's no doubt that I share much ground with those who do.

teemm

Does anyone else here have similar fluid views on gender/sexuality here?.

Yes, absolutely but I've come to terms with it. It took a long time though. Many people are like that.

I completely relate to most of what you've written. Essentially I found myself bisexual and transgender. In trying to clarify what exactly what I was. I found an identity which I believed worked, a bisexual transvestite even though every day of the week I fervently wished I had been born a girl or that one day I would wake up and find myself a woman. Indeed only this morning. I lay there in bed and thought about it.

Anyway, my point is that in gender terms I am male with many so called male attributes and interests. I am comfortable with this now because let's face it when you pretend to be something for long enough, you can carry it off well. But my identity, my mind, my brain, my outlook on life is female.

My sexuality on the other hand was always bisexual. Although I did feel for a long time that I was only bisexual because of my lack of sexual interaction with girls. Now really I only see myself as sexual. I'm attracted to people but it's all about relationships.

I don't know if I made myself clear. As you say it isn't easy to explain. But I know what I am now and am comfortable with it.

But I never transitioned. So I remain male. I realised I could never go through with it. I wasn't brave enough and came close to suicide after I started to face reality. I actually came out to some friends and indeed the reaction was universally positive. I even think most of my family would come to terms with it, even understand.

In the end I somehow ended up married and in quite an irony, I find myself taking on the traditional role of housewife with my kids. Three days a week at the moment but likely to be full time because my wife is the main breadwinner. In a way I got what I wanted. Funny old world.

In your case, I wonder really do you really have to tell your family? As it is you can only see negative reactions. Why bother then, it's your life and your decision?

It might be better to let it be known via one of your family who is more sympathetic to you. I personally wouldn't send a letter. It's a bit black and white for people and you will certainly provoke an attempt to talk you out of it complete with emotional blackmail. My personal view is that it would be easier to go ahead with the process and let them absorb the reality of it over time.

I also think you have to move out, get your own place. You don't have to move far. But you have to start living your new life.

Asry

Freiheit wrote: »

Does anyone else here have similar fluid views on gender/sexuality here?. Anyone here identify as queer or bigender?. I'm not sure whether to use the term bigender and bisexual myself,but there's no doubt that I share much ground with those who do.

I typed out a long reply but when I was looking at it, I'm not even nearly finished so, um. Actually. It would be really off-track for this thread. You're more than welcome to PM me and we could rant at each other if you want It would be really great to meet someone who's like me.

I'm sorry your family's so horrible about everything. I can see why it would be hard for them to accept though but it seems like they've been taking things way too far at this stage.

Annasopra

I don't really understand myself feelings of not being grounded in a male gender because essentially Ive always been a cisgendered male but I do know that others have radically different experiences. Freiheit have you ever gone to any support group or anything? TENI do have a worker based in waterford (I think you said before you live in carlow or kilkenny).

Asry

teemm wrote: »

In the end I somehow ended up married and in quite an irony, I find myself taking on the traditional role of housewife with my kids. Three days a week at the moment but likely to be full time because my wife is the main breadwinner. In a way I got what I wanted. Funny old world.

That's deadly

What you said though about the OP not telling his family...hmmm. Although I'm against coming out as homo/bisexual for a number of reasons, if the HRT and transitioning takes place it would be hard not to, I guess. By not telling them, you'd essentially be exiling yourself from your family forever. Would you not prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and tell them? We don't know how things work out until the words are said, and sometimes the result is radically different.

As for it being through a letter - it might be better face to face. I'd agree with letting someone know who's more sympathetic, but it's unfair to land them with the role of having to tell everyone else, you know?

Monty Burnz

Good luck OP. Things are always difficult when they are ahead of you and seem much easier in hindsight

teemm

Well, Asry I suppose it's just a question of how to broach the issue. I personally wouldn't send an email. But that's just me. My own approach would be to talk to one sister who I know would be more inclined to understand or at least be less judgemental. I wouldn't expect her to tell everyone else. But it would naturally find it's way through the family. To me the email is a bit 'in your face'. Not everyone wants to know about it. Some would prefer to ignore the situation. This is common in families where there's a row or an issue.

Two of my sisters are not talking but as the saying goes, they are civil with each other. For my own case in fact, at least three of my family, two sisters, ironically not the one I would talk to, and a brother know of what they would have been perceived as my crossdressing. Their reaction was not what I hoped for, accomodation or understanding but was to ignore the situation completely. To the extent I suspect that they would ignore the fact that I was in the room dressed as a woman.

I would think the email wouldn't leave room for people to ignore the situation. We all want understanding and tolerance but it isn't there. Second best for me, that's just me, but second best is to be left alone.

Just my opinon though, each to her own.

Asry

teemm wrote: »

I would think the email wouldn't leave room for people to ignore the situation. We all want understanding and tolerance but it isn't there. Second best for me, that's just me, but second best is to be left alone.

That's a good point. They'd have to face it and deal with it. That's so horrible that they'd act like that towards you though I'd probably just hide and act how they wanted if I were in your situation and I think you're really brave by refusing to do that.

teemm

Interestingly the best reaction for me was also for it to be ignored. When I told some female friends. Their main reaction was to take it on board. From then on I was officially one of the girls, as it were. Meaning the spoke and dealt with me as a woman, except perhaps joining them in the ladies.:o

My view is that I don't want to be labelled. I just want to be free to be me.

Asry

teemm wrote: »

My view is that I don't want to be labelled. I just want to be free to be me.

Absolutely. Oddly, I often feel the same way. I want to feel comfortable being myself, which isn't happening at the moment, either. Your lady friends sound super

Freiheit

Hi all, yeah I've been to Gossip in Galway and met a few of the regular posters here,very good.

Find myself sometimes a little on the outside in some trans circles because of my fluid,arbitrary view of gender. A lot of 'trans' people are a lot more fixed than me,they might be Transsexual but their identity is often a lot more binary than mine.

I've tried to 'buy into' the idea of full reassignment,with all sugeries,legal name change,new life,new voice etc but it doesn't feel quite right,or at least not all the time anyway. Feels much better simply to be myself and do what I feel is right at each moment in time,that might eventually mean all of the above,maybe. But perhaps I'm too much a critic of gender restrictions ever to fit a typical mould of either and that's ok,I now realise.

I mentioned email because as theyr'e not easy to talk to and not good at listening,perhaps email would at least guarantee that I say everything?.

teemm

I can see that, you can be too intellectual about the subject. I wonder sometimes if trans people feel they must fulfill all the critieria in order to justify their sense of being female or male. You must have been sure that you were in the wroing body when you were five years old. By the time you were 12 you just knew that you should have been born female.

If not, you're just a tranny playing at being female, or that's the viewpoint.

Freiheit, don't worry about it, do what you feel is best.

But I do feel that you somehow need to explain yourself to your family. I understand that. Part of the reason I never transitioned was the fear that I would lose the closeness with my family. We are a close family. I am if nothing else, a coward. I love my family and love my time with them. Worse still, I married into a close family. I have sacrificied my own self satisfaction, my own sense of what I am in order to be part of something bigger than I am.

So I see what you want to achieve by sending the email, you want them to understand, you want them to see, you know that to verbalise it you cannot make them see how it is.

Perhaps it will work for some. But the truth is that unless you really are prepared to leave most if not all of your family behind, then you will not transition.

You really need to do what is best for YOU, no one else.

I hate what I am, but at the end of the day. I have to live with myself. It would be so much easier to be a bloke who fancies girls. But I'm not. So I try living in a compromise life. It isn't easy. But you know that.

Freiheit

Thanks teemm.....I relate to what you say,I understand how you feel. We make compromises but some such as your is very hard to make. However not to make them often leads to accusations of being selfish,for considering only oneself. Also too if you do care for others you'l try to be there for them, at your own expense sometimes at least. But beyond a point and you'l end up deeply depressed yourself,end up on the vicous spiral that is anti-depressant medications or alcohol,your relationships will suffer anyway etc,you know what I mean Im sure........

In my case it's complicated by my lack of conviction about 'being born in the wrong body'. While clearly my life would be better if I wasn't born with a penis,I've never believed it literaly to be true in the sense of a 'female brain male body' a theory presented as fact in the Irish Times,see my previous thread. However I've encountered people for whom that literal belief was a major driving force,making them however very binary and usually not wanting association with someone like me....

Anyway I think I will write an email,I want to try to put into words how I feel.

Maybe I need to be more radical and up completely to a new town,maybe I should just take my chances and do that.......good morning by the way:)

Asry

Freiheit wrote: »

Hi all, yeah I've been to Gossip in Galway and met a few of the regular posters here,very good.

Find myself sometimes a little on the outside in some trans circles because of my fluid,arbitrary view of gender. A lot of 'trans' people are a lot more fixed than me,they might be Transsexual but their identity is often a lot more binary than mine.

I've tried to 'buy into' the idea of full reassignment,with all sugeries,legal name change,new life,new voice etc but it doesn't feel quite right,or at least not all the time anyway. Feels much better simply to be myself and do what I feel is right at each moment in time,that might eventually mean all of the above,maybe. But perhaps I'm too much a critic of gender restrictions ever to fit a typical mould of either and that's ok,I now realise.

I mentioned email because as theyr'e not easy to talk to and not good at listening,perhaps email would at least guarantee that I say everything?.

I suppose maybe gender binaries would be enforced in that case? Speaking from a critical standpoint, I mean.

Perhaps the email would be a good solution, as it would allow you to articulate yourself carefully and as you feel is best. I find face-to-face things like that make me tongue-tied for some reason.

Asry

Freiheit wrote: »

In my case it's complicated by my lack of conviction about 'being born in the wrong body'. While clearly my life would be better if I wasn't born with a penis,I've never believed it literaly to be true in the sense of a 'female brain male body' a theory presented as fact in the Irish Times,see my previous thread.

I thought that brain theory was fact?

Freiheit

Hi Asry,the brain sex theory,as in a female brain in an otherwise male body or visa versa is just a theory with little evidence to support it,see my last thread in this forum. What I don't like it's presented as fact by some and used to disassociate themselves from people like me who'd be derided as simply a transvestite , a totally separate and inferior entity to them.

Thanks for the offer of a p.m.. . It's open to you too any time you feel like conversation.:)

deirdre_dub

Freiheit wrote: »

Hi Asry,the brain sex theory,as in a female brain in an otherwise male body or visa versa is just a theory with little evidence to support it

Quite true - there is little evidence to support it. However, like many trans people, I really really like the theory, because it feels right for me. I accept, of course, that it doesn't feel right for you.

What I don't like it's presented as fact by some and used to disassociate themselves from people like me who'd be derided as simply a transvestite , a totally separate and inferior entity to them.

I'm sorry to hear that people are using it in a derisory fashion towards you.

I understand that your experience of gender isn't binary. My experience of gender is quite binary, and I certainly don't see my experience as being in any way "greater" or "better" than yours. Actually, quite the opposite. As a trans person, I've always had issues with society's gender binary, because it has caused me so much trouble. It hasn't escaped my attention that I'm now putting my body through some pretty rough medical interventions in order to (try to) fit right back into that binary that has caused me (and many others) so much trouble! I sometimes feel like a "traitor". Also, however difficult it is to be a person in society who has "gone from one gender to the other", the fact is that it is harder to "go from one gender to none / both / neither", as evidenced in (amongst many other places) the gender recognition advisory group report. I know some genderqueer people who are quite upset that the proposals for gender recognition would exclude them.

However, my feelings of being a "traitor" don't last when I realise that I'm being true to myself, in spite of what the haters and others say and do. And that is all that any of us can do. And as far as I am concerned, anyone who takes the kinds of risks that most LGBT people take in order to be themselves are just wonderful people, and are most certainly deserving of huge respect, and even admiration.

So - all the best to you - I hope it goes well - you have my respect and admiration.

Freiheit

Thanks Deirdre,very much appreciated.:)....What are the teni meetings in Dublin like?.

Asry

Oh? I was told it was fact and took it as fact but it's really not? The brain thing I mean. Hmm. I better go read some stuff I guess. I can see why the theory is so widely accepted. Like the 'gay from birth' theory.

I went to a TENI meeting once! See how I'm completely butting in here. I'm not trans though. It was a surreal experience, but I'm glad I was there, as I was helping a friend and learning things at the same time.

Freiheit

What strikes me in regret stories,(no doubt a small minority of transition cases) is that it was as though there was no other way. They don't usually word it that way but it's as though they had variant expression and regretted the surgery,but then go back to being a stereotypical member of their at birth assigned gender. There doesn't appear to be a middle ground where their expression is free. They may cross dress in the evening,but........not sure what else to say,I know that every story is different and the above is just a generalisation. Small numbers detransition to their 'birth assigned gender',there has even been cases of people undergoing multiple transitions back and forth.

A minority of regretful transitioners deride the whole concept of transition but I've yet to see any criticise the restricted scope of gender in the first place. They revert to a limited definition male and female,so they try to conform to their birth gender,without reference to how limited that scope is. Surgical gender reassignment isn't for everyone,is for many but it shouldn't be a case of 'bipolar' as in,shouldn't be a choice of all or nothing,surgery shouldn't be required for freedom to express oneself. It shouldn't be necessary to considered a de facto man or woman or whatever identity one chooses for oneself.

Again the last paragraph is a generalisation and not reflective of every case,just a few that stand out in my mind

Maybe a discussion of trans regrets might make a good discussion topic sometime? not with a view to discouraging anyone but maybe just to analyse what went wrong, and there can be many reasons,surgery isn't the only one, or likely even to be the major one. It could be prejudice and isolation,unemployment etc.

Hope all enjoy the bank holiday!:)

Links234

Freiheit wrote: »

Find myself sometimes a little on the outside in some trans circles because of my fluid,arbitrary view of gender. A lot of 'trans' people are a lot more fixed than me,they might be Transsexual but their identity is often a lot more binary than mine.

I've tried to 'buy into' the idea of full reassignment,with all sugeries,legal name change,new life,new voice etc but it doesn't feel quite right,or at least not all the time anyway. Feels much better simply to be myself and do what I feel is right at each moment in time,that might eventually mean all of the above,maybe. But perhaps I'm too much a critic of gender restrictions ever to fit a typical mould of either and that's ok,I now realise.

Hey Freiheit, sorry I've not had as much time to talk these days, been pretty busy. But I do get what you mean, and I think one of the hardest things for me for moving ahead with my transition was realizing that I didn't have to be stereotypically feminine, I wasn't required to push myself into a strict and rigid box that would be a poor fit for me. Some of the best advice I was given by Dr. Kelly was to look at transition as a train journey, that I could get off at any stop along the way, and that I didn't have to do anything I didn't want to.

I agonized myself for ages thinking "Am I feminine enough to transition?" or wondering, because of my interests and personality, was I *really* trans? But I eventually came to realize that it was nothing to do with my interests or anything like that, it was about how I felt about myself that was important.

Let me put it another way, you've always struck me as a way more feminine person than myself. My idea of a good time is thrashing around at a metal concert, and the ensuing bruises the next day would be a reminder of how great a night it was. A lot of the time I'm more comfortable wearing a pair of guy's combats and a T-shirt than a skirt or a dress or anything, and my favourite fashion accessories are a pair of goggles. I wear black constantly. I had a great time dismantling my guitar a couple of months ago, and I love the smell of WD40. I think I'm anything but binary. There's a huge difference between being, and doing. I put away any expectations people have for me, just because I'm female, doesn't mean I shouldn't have those interests. I'm going through transition to feel comfortable in my own skin, to feel at home with my body, not to change any of my interests or anything!

Basically, I was afraid I'd be forced to be like this:



...when I'm really more like this:



So take my advice, and don't do anything you don't want to!

But I think trans people in general are a lot less binary than people expect them to be, so I think that we all have our problems with gender restriction and I'd certainly be critical of oppressive gender roles. But I think my fight so to speak, is turning the idea of what trans people are supposed to be on it's head, and hopefully making more people realize that you don't have to fit into some constrictive little gendered box if you don't want to be.

I was terrified that I wasn't feminine enough to transition, and now I realize that's bull****. So if anyone was ever to say to me that I'm not feminine enough to be "really" trans, I'd tell them where to stick it, I'm not changing myself for anyone.

Freiheit wrote: »

Hi Asry,the brain sex theory,as in a female brain in an otherwise male body or visa versa is just a theory with little evidence to support it,see my last thread in this forum. What I don't like it's presented as fact by some and used to disassociate themselves from people like me who'd be derided as simply a transvestite , a totally separate and inferior entity to them.

Well, that's not really true at all, there is lots of supporting evidence for that, there's even genes associated with transsexuality, Zoe Brain has compiled a huge amount of resources on the subject here. But...

I see exactly where you are coming from, and I agree with you! There's a horrible thing where some trans people like to play "more trans than you!" and pretend they're more legit than you. I've ran into to a trans woman who felt the need to tell me that I was just a cross-dresser in her eyes, and berate me in other ways. The most suitable response to those kinds of people in my experience is, "go **** yourself!"

if some people want to hold something over you, to pretend that their identity is more legitimate than yours, they're not your friend and you've got no reason to explain yourself, or justify yourself to them. it's never worth arguing with someone who wants to play the "more trans than you" game, because all it really is is them showing up their own insecurities. and in their eyes, you'll never be doing it the "right" way... you're not *really trans unless you've walked 2 hours uphill (both ways) in the rain to get your hormones. your identity isn't any less legitimate than anyone else's, and don't let them tell you otherwise!

maybe it's just me, but I think you're too afraid of what other people are thinking. trust yourself. there's two many people out there who want to judge others, or like to feel superior. they remind me of crusty old metalheads who'll sneer at you and tell you that you're not a "true" metal fan, because you didn't see Judas Priest back in the 80's in some venue that doesn't exist any more. I wouldn't give a **** if someone thinks I'm not metal enough, and I wouldn't give a **** if someone thinks I'm not trans enough either.

I remember one time, there was a thread on reddit that asked "what would you do if you had a brain scan that showed you had a cisgender brain?" and I just didn't even bother answering, it didn't matter to me. I'm still me and I still know that transition is right for me, it wouldn't change anything.

I never mentioned this before, but I saw a psychiatrist here in Galway who wanted me to get tests done to see if I'm actually intersex, he seemed to think that this was what I should have done first, and that I could have some intersex condition. he was adamant that I get a karyotype done, but I never did. and I still probably won't. because in my mind, what's the point? lets say I've actually got some chromosomal condition, what then? what does that actually change? nothing really! I'd still be on HRT, I'd still be identifying as female, it wouldn't make a difference. I'm sure it would make me more "legit" in some people's eyes if I had Klinefelter's or something, but would it make a shred of difference to me? nope! and I'd still identify as transgender too. I've read things from other trans people who've discovered they're intersex, and they've said it hasn't made them feel any different, so what would be the point for me to get tested? waste of time and resources on something I don't need to know.

oh, and I don't think sex is a binary either

But really Freiheit, be yourself! and don't compromise if you can avoid it.

and remember, your identity isn't any less legitimate than anyone else's, and don't ever let anyone else make you feel like it is! if you identity outside of male and female, then that's every bit as legit as anyone else. I've got a great amount of respect for people like Kate Bornstein and Leslie Feinberg who do identify outside of male and female. gender isn't a binary, and sex isn't a binary!

the only person you have to justify yourself to, is YOU!

Links234

Freiheit wrote: »

Maybe a discussion of trans regrets might make a good discussion topic sometime? not with a view to discouraging anyone but maybe just to analyse what went wrong, and there can be many reasons,surgery isn't the only one, or likely even to be the major one. It could be prejudice and isolation,unemployment etc.

Hope all enjoy the bank holiday!:)

Maybe. I think it's hard for trans people to talk about detransition because often the possibility of it is used as a stick to beat us with. In my experience, people detransition for a lot of reasons, and lack of employment seems one of the most common ones.

it's interesting to note (though this is completely anecdotal), among those who detransition, it seems almost exclusively MtFs who do so, I've never spoken to FtMs who've detransitioned.

there's a great article here about it: http://tranifesto.com/2010/05/24/should-we-keep-transition-regret-under-wraps/

teemm

I agonized myself for ages thinking "Am I feminine enough to transition?" or wondering, because of my interests and personality, was I *really* trans? But I eventually came to realize that it was nothing to do with my interests or anything like that, it was about how I felt about myself that was important.

You've managed to nail it for me and I hope for freiheit. Apart from all other factors, not being feminine enough led me to conclude that I was but a trannie. In spite of the fact that the trannies I met sussed me straight away. I maintained this fiction within myself for many years.

There were also my interests which are boy like. But of course I was falling for the old trap. The nature, nurture thing. My personal view now is that it is a nature thing. But I was brought up a boy so was exposed to all the boy interests. In spite of that programming. I have always felt more female than male. Even now in spite of my attempt to leave it behind.

In the end the reason, I never did transition was nothing to do with whether I believed I was feminine enough but all to do with the fact that I never felt I was strong enough to go through with it. That's why I truly admire those who have the certainty and strength to go through with it.

So I live here in Galway, a married man. Not the future I would have expected had you asked me where I'd be in ten years time back in 2001.

Links234

teemm wrote: »

In the end the reason, I never did transition was nothing to do with whether I believed I was feminine enough but all to do with the fact that I never felt I was strong enough to go through with it. That's why I truly admire those who have the certainty and strength to go through with it.

you know, I've got a hard time thinking of myself as strong. I guess I am in some ways, or at least, I'm stronger than I was. But I don't think that starting my transition required any strength at all, it was more like giving up fighting against it. no doubt things are tough sometimes, and I've still got some serious issues with my family, but I'm just dealing with it all as it comes, and it feels easier to deal with everything that comes my way, because I'm not swimming against the current any more.

hope that makes sense.

and look, we've all got our fears and doubts. it's not easy, that's for sure, and I can't tell you how many times I've wondered to myself, would I be able to do this? and I didn't have an answer for myself. but I'm doing it.

recently I've had more ups and downs and more highs and lows that I've ever had. no doubt they would've scared me if I knew of everything that would happen ahead of time, but I'm just getting on with things. I can't imagine what my life would've been like if I hadn't started my transition, I hated myself so much not so long ago. not transitioning would be the hardest thing to do from my perspective.

so I just gotta say, what you are doing is what really requires strength. *hugs*

Freiheit

Thanks all for your input. Thanks Links for your positive words. You are strong and I'm glad that your doing well. In ways Transsexuals are damned if they do,damned if they don't. A stereotypicaly ,overtly feminine Transwoman or masculine transman is open to being accused of being just that,a stereotype who is shedding their individuality to conform to an artifical norm. A more androgynous,more atypical image is perceived as evidence that one is not feminine/masculine enough and therefore not truly belong to their reassigned gender.

In relation to brain sex ,while I am open to all information,there is little evidence for brain-body dimporhism based on the hypothalamus,as said in a previous thread it's a hormone sensative organ,5 of the 6 subjects in the study had undergone hrt so it's natural then that size would adapt. 6 is in itself a scientificaly invalid sample,it's too small. I'm not sure if this is what your referring to Links but I did see reference to it in the link you posted.

As also said in an earlier thread there's no verifiable difference between male and female brains,other than size and this hormone sensitive organ,so even gendering a brain to begin with is less than straightforward,never mind claiming that there is brain-body dimorphism. A lot of this is contained in the book Delusions of gender.The brain as whole is hormone sensitive but the hypothalamus is involved in hormone regulation (I think isn't it?)

There is really remarkably little known about the brain,it's an incredibly complex organ,so I'm not saying that nature has no role,clearly it has but it's a near impossible task to separate nurture from nature,they literally fuse. Nature and nurture both have a role,in the trans and cis,hetero and gay/bi, Caucausion and black communities, in everyone ,how much of each well nobody knows because they are so difficult to separate.

I

I wonder if ribbons were put in a class of boys hair and they were totally shielded from social norms (impossible I know but I wonder) how would they feel? Clearly not all girls like ribbon either but if that was possible I wonder how would they compare with boys?. Thousands of other examples could also be used . If expression was truly free,how different would the genders really be?.

Anyway Allah how did it get to this? my fault in dragging this thread thousands of miles off track!:)

As far as I'm concerned the cause for someone feeling as they do isn't really the issue and I may be guilty of creating a smokescreen here. The cause doesn't matter,because regardless of what it is,it doesn't make it less legitimate,a need less in need of being met,less entitled to being met

I've spoken a parent frankly since I started this thread and the communication has helped. I'll keep her posted but I don't now feel I've anything to say to the others now. I may do if I start hrt and it goes well,when I move towards the point of indellible change I may write to them,but I no longer feel the need to now.

Told Mum that I'd rather be dead than go on as I have been. The communication was good fairly non judgmental,there was 'well is it your career failures that have led you to feel this way?' 'Will neighbours try to get rid of you?' I said I hope they'l be more concerned with their own lives. 'Who'l give you a job?' I said well I hope that I'l be judged for my ability I hope, or maybe become self employed. I said that I'd rather take my chances and risk failure because my life has been pretty unfulfilling the past decade anyway. But when I referred to change I didn't necessarily mean full gender reassignment and even if I decided I wanted it today I might not be sure tommorrow,but hey in any event I'm a long way from that now. It might feel clearer at a later point,when a lot more change has already taken place?.

I'm out as gay and gender queer for years,even when I wasn't out everyone knew except the family,so I'm not talking from the point of view of a typical male lifestyle. Took a hammering from it verbally from the locals for a long time,but as my confience grew they accepted me and I got on with most of them as I became stronger.

Going for a coffee...wow writers block!

Freiheit

http://www.tv3.ie/ireland_am.php?video=38034&locID=1.65.74

Actuallu very good tv3 on gender recognition and reference to non-binary trans identities too,very affirmative,despite the fact that the law seems unlikely to adapt that far.

Freiheit

Should I worry about my neighbours if I decide to live as a woman?.

Shakti

Links234 wrote: »

there's two many people out there who want to judge others, or like to feel superior. they remind me of crusty old metalheads who'll sneer at you and tell you that you're not a "true" metal fan, because you didn't see Judas Priest back in the 80's in some venue that doesn't exist any more. I wouldn't give a **** if someone thinks I'm not metal enough, and I wouldn't give a **** if someone thinks I'm not trans enough either.

I agree and this attitude exists in lots of things. Its elitist and involves the maintenance of a perceived hierarchy. Thing with elitists is they rarely perceive themselves to be at the bottom of their own totem pole. Also I saw Judas Priest in the SFX around that and they sucked!
People at the top of these 'hierarchies' depend far more on some people believing and behaving like they are at the bottom of them than the other way around.

Freiheit

Did any others here start transition with uncertainty over srs and a legal indentity change,which dissipated over time as their transition took affect?.

Is there any point in a person with my views pursuing hrt?....How could it benefit me?.....

Shakti

Freiheit wrote: »

Did any others here start transition with uncertainty over srs and a legal indentity change,which dissipated over time as their transition took affect?.

Is there any point in a person with my views pursuing hrt?....How could it benefit me?.....

'Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.'
Voltaire

After a lifetime of negative affirmation both internal and external it would be unlikely that I wouldn't have doubts. The more I have stripped away the more unreasonable, negative, repressive and phobic arguments against transitioning the less doubts I have.
This (GID) is always with me, always there, if not constantly in the forefront of my mind then still like a subroutine or muzak in the background it has colored everything I have ever done and every relationship I have ever had, so putting doubts aside I think its safe to say there is something at least going on with me with regards to gender of that there can be no doubt.
What sort of permanent changes if any people make will differ for everybody but there are plenty of ways of dipping your toe into transition that don't involve HRT/SRS for instance hair removal/growth or presenting in your preferred gender part time, coming out as trans etc. Hard as it can be its your life and you get to decide whats right for you and I can relate to the the feelings outlined in your post.

Links234

Freiheit wrote: »

Thanks all for your input. Thanks Links for your positive words. You are strong and I'm glad that your doing well. In ways Transsexuals are damned if they do,damned if they don't. A stereotypicaly ,overtly feminine Transwoman or masculine transman is open to being accused of being just that,a stereotype who is shedding their individuality to conform to an artifical norm. A more androgynous,more atypical image is perceived as evidence that one is not feminine/masculine enough and therefore not truly belong to their reassigned gender.

Absolutely agree with you there.

Here's a great song from a band who's singer recently came out as trans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6J7q6lg9Xg

Freiheit wrote: »

In relation to brain sex ,while I am open to all information,there is little evidence for brain-body dimporhism based on the hypothalamus,as said in a previous thread it's a hormone sensative organ,5 of the 6 subjects in the study had undergone hrt so it's natural then that size would adapt. 6 is in itself a scientificaly invalid sample,it's too small. I'm not sure if this is what your referring to Links but I did see reference to it in the link you posted.

As also said in an earlier thread there's no verifiable difference between male and female brains,other than size and this hormone sensitive organ,so even gendering a brain to begin with is less than straightforward,never mind claiming that there is brain-body dimorphism. A lot of this is contained in the book Delusions of gender.The brain as whole is hormone sensitive but the hypothalamus is involved in hormone regulation (I think isn't it?)

There is really remarkably little known about the brain,it's an incredibly complex organ,so I'm not saying that nature has no role,clearly it has but it's a near impossible task to separate nurture from nature,they literally fuse. Nature and nurture both have a role,in the trans and cis,hetero and gay/bi, Caucausion and black communities, in everyone ,how much of each well nobody knows because they are so difficult to separate.

You're working from a couple of fallacies there.

One of the most referenced and most famous of the studies would be Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus. This is often criticized because of the low number of subjects, but because it was a physical examination of the brains of deceased subjects, the number was going to be fairly low anyway. But that's not a reason to discount the findings, and a small sample size is not evidence to the contrary. Have a good read of it, and you'll see they have many different control subjects, including those with different sexual orientations, hormone levels, and so on. Much of what you bring up there will probably be addressed.

Also, it's not as if this is the only evidence, there's a hell of a lot, many different studies that look at different things using different methods, and come out with similar findings. For example White matter microstructure in female to male transsexuals before cross-sex hormonal treatment. A diffusion tensor imaging study. Which studies a completely different area of the brain that the above study, and uses a completely different method, yet the conclusions are the same. Regional cerebral blood flow changes in female to male gender identity disorder. Again, observing a different area of the brain and showing the same thing. There are dozens of these peer-reviewed scientific studies that have been done independently, and what is significant is that they are all demonstrating the same thing. Not any one of these studies is to be taken as proof of something, but all of them taken together. And yes, neurobiology is a very young science, but that doesn't mean to say that the findings in this field aren't of significance, so it's a fallacy to discount them on those grounds too.

An amazing video I've recently seen that explains a lot of this is a talk from Robert Sapolsky, it's a long video so here is the link to the time where he starts talking about transsexuality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOY3QH_jOtE&feature=channel_video_title#t=1h23m50s

Watch that, he only talks about transsexuality for about 6 minutes, so it won't take up too much time, but it'll give you a fair idea of why this research is quite significant. It's well worth a watch!

Anyway, I think the main issues that are addressed in Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender is that sexual dimorphism of the brain is used to back up societal differences between male and female. That is to say, someone takes the fact that male and female brains are different, and then leaps to a conclusion that differently gendered social norms and perceived abilities are down to those differences. That's really conflating two separate issues, and taking the findings of the above studies on the brains of transsexuals to be indicative of anything beyond what they are showing is a fallacy. What I mean there is, those studies are only indicating a physical basis for transsexuality, and no more. Whether societal differences between genders are due to physical differences in the brain is a completely separate issue, and the only thing we can take away from this is that those differences may have a very significant role in body image or our sense of self as being male or female. Anything else would be jumping to conclusions, and not what the actual science is indicative of.

There are differences between male and female brains, but that doesn't mean we discount the societal influence on gendered behaviors either. Relevant:



Besides, if you're asking yourself "am I really trans, or not?" all of this isn't much of a help anyway. When I was questioning myself, I was reading up on a lot of these studies, and I kinda desperately wanted someone else to tell me if I was trans or not... I wished there was some way just to tell. But some of these studies were done post-mortem, certainly the most significant one was carried out post-mortem, so really, what was the point in worrying about that if they could only tell me I was trans after I was dead? It's a great help in knowing that being transgender isn't just something imagined, but that's all really. So it all comes back to you, and how you feel.

Freiheit wrote: »

Did any others here start transition with uncertainty over srs and a legal indentity change,which dissipated over time as their transition took affect?.

Is there any point in a person with my views pursuing hrt?....How could it benefit me?.....

Well, in my case it's actually the opposite. I started transition pretty damn sure that I wanted genital surgery and everything, now that I've started HRT, I'm actually really undecided and not even thinking about surgery at all for the most part. So right now, I really don't know if I want surgery, and I've had to reconsider what transition meant for me. There are many trans people who are non-operative.

But this comes back to the "train journey" thing that Dr. Kelly was talking about, that it's not a fixed destination and you can get off at any stop along the way. You might not be certain now, but if HRT is something you want, then go for it. There's not some list of things that you must do if you start hormones, and if the hormone treatment feels wrong for you, you can stop at any time you want. We have all had doubts, all of us have had uncertainty about transition, but are doubts a valid reason not to start HRT? No, I don't think so. But again, don't do anything you don't want to do.

Hope this helps

Links234

god, these big posts take a lot out of me

deirdre_dub

Freiheit wrote: »

Thanks Deirdre,very much appreciated.:)....What are the teni meetings in Dublin like?.

Pretty good, thanks. Maybe 6 people on a quiet night, maybe 15 on a busy night.

Freiheit wrote: »

Did any others here start transition with uncertainty over srs and a legal indentity change,which dissipated over time as their transition took affect?.

Everyone is different. But to answer your questions - in my case, certainty about SRS took time, though I was less uncertain about the legal identity change.

Is there any point in a person with my views pursuing hrt?....How could it benefit me?.....

There are two sets of effects of HRT - the external and the internal.

The external would mean that you would start to look more feminine. Whether that is a benefit for you is something you will need to think about.

The internal benefits of HRT are quite interesting, and hard to describe. For me, the benefits were that my head stopped being such a terrible place to live. It was more - much more - than the psychological aspect of having started transition - it is as if my brain needs estrogen, and finds testosterone to be poisonous. I'm much much calmer now.

The good news is that the pretty universal experience seems to be that the internal effects appear sooner than any irreversable external effects, which means that you could theoretically "try" hormones and see what they do for you. But, as Links says, don't do anything that doesn't feel right for you.

Freiheit

I am veering on the side of trying hrt (due back at Loughlinstown in September) on the basis that we are all dead long enough and it might be better to try,if of course the professionals are confident that I am likely to tolerate such a regime....better to try and fail than not try at all and wonder 'what if?'.......

It's hard to visualise myself as a woman now,but of course it would be,I can still remain a gender critic/crack even as a woman can't I?.....

I've had a feeling all my life that I desperately wanted 'to be like the girls' but that didn't translate into a desire to have a vagina or even to legally be one....of course I hate bodily hair and facial hair...but that's just how I viewed it...wanted to be one of them without thinking of surgery or legal identity change....

Of course the above feeling was no less powerful,disabling and deeply depressing at the times....so I've always presented in a somewhat gender queer way,as much as was possible or permissable,was easier to bare than the alien typical male presentation.....

L.Jenkins

I know how you feel in a way Frieheit. The internal battle going on, 'Should I or shouldn't I?'. I fought with that for years; the fears, doubts and uncertainty. From my mid-teens onwards, I really, really began to visualise myself as a female and gradually over time, my sense of dysphoria became crippling.

I really can't imagine myself in any other mode, it's who I am and slowly I'm beginning to claw back at who I really should be. I understand you have much uncertainty as to whether or not you should go through with it, but if I were turned away at the door, I would be devastated. For all of us, there is a choice and I'm firmly grounded in what I want and the end of August seems like a million miles away right about now.

I hope that what ever your decision, that you are eternally happy with the outcome.

teemm

You do have a tendency over analyse, freiheit. How do I know? Well so did I.

Once I stopped that and began to accept things about myself. I calmed down. No I don't fulfil all my perceived requirements. But no one does. I was brought up as a man and being dosed with testosterone all my life. So naturally the male side of me is obvious.

I never could visualise myself as female, but that's not uncommon. Even post operative girls report on that. Interestingly now I do, particularly in dreams and simply lying there with my eyes closed. Note not imagine it but feel it. There's a subtle difference.

I do think taking Hormones would help. As Deirdre says the internal effects take place before any external changes. I've never taken hormones but I have taken herbal supplements which allegedly help generate breast growth. Well maybe, maybe not. But I did find interesting and subtle changes to my internal outlook. Now I cannot prove if it was anything more than a placebo effect. But I felt different and indeed my sexual orientation seemed to change. Also I must say my breasts while not enlarging visibly did become more sensitive. Everything I took was safe and widely available in health stores, BTW.

You can start hormones and the transition process. You can also stop too. That's why I would be careful about making a big announcement. Once started and you realise it's the right path. Then you will be better able to field any criticism because in your own mind will be clearer on the subject.

Freiheit

Danke Shoen teem,yes I've long known that thinkers are amongst the most tortured of souls. Over analysis can make the world seem very complicated and I've in ways envied those who think just a little bit less!:).....

So outlook and perceptions of oneself do start to change? as your life changes?....it's easy,easier for me to be queer in outlook now,from my current position....Interesting James Kelly said he perceived me as an androgynous person,one who people would struggle to tell what gender I was..interesting....and that was just a first impression....

Freiheit

You know what I don't normally respond to aggressive posts,but on this one occasion I will,once only.

This was posted then deleted "could never understand wanting a change sex, no matter what a doctor does your still a man.

it seems to be just about making people think your a woman.

think of what your doing to your parents and family for a change.

Why not just be man/bear/pig and be done with it."

I'm about to respond because I've heard this attitude before,there's always the odd one whenever a trans person appears on radio or television.

Firstly -a penis or a vagina is just a reproductive organ. It should not determine one's life as traditional society seems to think it should.- Yes the reproductive organs one was born with cannot with current technology be replaced by the opposite. If gender is purely about reproductive capacity,fine that is fixed but I don't believe reproductive roles predetermine a life. -

I believe that it's everyone's right to live as is true and natural for them. Nobody has a right to restrict another being from doing such. If family or others have a problem with it,that's a failure on their behalf to understand the diversity of the human race. Sometimes they'l be afraid of what the neighbours will think,well that's the neighbours problem then,for exactly the same reason.

Everything outside a very rigid norm was hidden in Ireland before,that's changing gradually and attitudes are changing as people gradually learn that there's nothing to be afraid of from atypical identities. Just like people are now increasingly less phobic of mental health problems,or physical disabilities or cancer.

Because people are now able to talk in open about them. People are realising that there's nothing to be afraid of. I believer in a broader definition of male,female or intersex than was imposed by traditional Irish society. It's funny how many more ancient societies were a lot more fluid in terms of gender and sexuality. It appears largerly to have been the birth of the Abrahamic religions which changed this.

-why not be a man-pig-bear- and be done with it-,what a retarded remark,empty of content and/or intellect.

I and most people care a lot for family and others in their world. However a person in a state of emotional conflict is unlikely to be happy person to be around,unlikely to be a positive prescence anywhere. It's only be being oneself that one can be mentally and physically healthy and productive in society. That's what all families want for their children. That's what's best for every family and for society.