Workflow, Processes & Systems. Oh my!

shemwhistler

First off, sorry if this is the wrong part of the forum for this, but The Workshop didn't seem quite right either.

Since getting my first DSLR (about 6 weeks ago) I've found that I'm taking more images than ever before, hooray! However this has 'broken' my existing workflow/filing system which worked fine for a more casual amount of pics, but is buckling under the sheer volume of data I'm now looking to store and disseminate through various sources e.g. Flickr

I was hoping that people would be willing to share their systems and ideas so that frankly I can benefit from your wisdom.

Here are some of the thoughts I've been having regarding this;

• Do I keep the originals locked away and create copies of everything that I can edit with impunity?
• Do I just copy the ones that I intend to PP?
• Do I store everythig together; original, RAW and PP?
• How should I save stuff; date, event, other?
• I'm currently using Picassa to do some basic organisation and to geotag, is there anything better than this out there?

I'd love to hear your ideas as it seems to make sense that establishing a robust process now (only 6 weeks into taking shots in anger) will serve me in the long term.

Thanks for your time.

jpb1974

Up until recently I used Lightroom for 95% of my workflow and used Photoshop the odd time for specific adjustments.

The problem for me is that Lightroom can be very slow to preview images at times.

Having recently read/watched this blog I decided to give Photo Mechanic a try (previewing and rating images directly from the CF card) and I was well impressed by the speed -

http://zackarias.com/for-photographers/photo-resources/workflow-photo-mechanic-to-lightroom-to-photoshop-to-delivery/

shemwhistler

I've heard Lightroom mentioned before, but I believe it's pretty expensive, is it worth the price? Or does it fall into the luxury purchase category?

jpb1974

Lightroom is must have and is great value for money if you're serious about photo management & development.

EDIT: You can download a free trial here https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/tdrc/index.cfm?product=photoshop_lightroom

shemwhistler

Thanks, I'll have to download this tonight when I get home and give it a spin. Maybe something to add to my Christmas list.

PopeBuckfastXVI

This is my storage structure - your mileage may vary

C:\Photography\Originals
(Holds a folder for each event/set RAWs)
C:\Photography\Processed
(Holds a folder for each event/set JPGs)
C:\Photography\Originals\2011-07 Some Event
(The RAW Goes here)
C:\Photography\Processed\2011-07 Some Event
(The JPG from RAW Goes here)
C:\Photography\Processed\2011-07 Some Event\Shopped
(If any shopping was needed the Photoshop file and shopped JPG go here)
C:\Photography\Processed\2011-07 Some Event\Websize
(Smaller web sized copies, if needed, go here)

That's about it.

magicbastarder

shemwhistler wrote: »

but is buckling under the sheer volume of data I'm now looking to store and disseminate through various sources e.g. Flickr

sounds like you should include in your workflow a much more ruthless pruning of your photos; there's not any point in keeping photos you're never going to revisit.

challengemaster

magicbastarder wrote: »

sounds like you should include in your workflow a much more ruthless pruning of your photos; there's not any point in keeping photos you're never going to revisit.

I disagree somewhat - some of my favorite photos (ones from poolbeg) I thought were crap when I first looked at them. 2+ years later I trawled through all my old raw files when bored and did some editing.

magicbastarder

how many files would that involve?

shemwhistler

Thanks PopeBuckfastXVI, that's definitely got the cogs turning, I'm liking that a lot and may shamelessly steal it whole sale

@magicbastarder & @challengemaster I'm more inclined to keep everything as I'm a hoarder and with HDD space now it's not really an issue, but I wouldn't PP or upload every file to flickr. Currently I;

1. Import all files from camera to a file called import.
2. Geotag them all with Picassa
3. Decide if any need PP and copy them to a folder 'To PP'.
4. Copy any that I want on our Apple TV to the specific folder for that.
5. Copy any I want to upload to flickr to a folder 'Flickr'
6. Store all my originals by date/event e.g Jun 11 - General or Jun 11 - Botanic Gardens.
7. PP any images in the To PP folder.
8. Repeat steps 4 to 6
9. Upload files to Flickr
10. Delete files from Flickr folder

*phew*

It just feels somewhat cumbersome, for instance if I don;t get it all in one sitting I worry I'm going to miss something along the way.

I wonder whether I'd be better handling one image at a time in it's entirety.

dmg1982

Here's my workflow:
http://www.photodmc.com/blog/2010/8/15/the-digital-workflow.html

It's changed slightly since then, but the main steps are the same. Hope it helps.

shemwhistler

Thanks dmg1982, more ideas to process there and mull over.

Love the slides b the way.

Paddy@CIRL

If the shots need to be distributed from location it goes :

CF Card -> Macbook Pro HD -> Lightroom -> Process Images -> Web / Client
Originals on the MBP HD are backed up after every session onto an external drive which is kept away from the laptop at all times.

When I get back to the office it then goes :

MBP Lightroom Catalog -> iMac HD which is then backed up hourly through Time Machine.

When I'm finished with the images :

iMac HD LR Catalog -> Firewire External Drive which is mirrored daily.

It sounds a lot more complicated than it is, but it's pretty straightforward and everything is dealt with through LR so I never lose or have to re-do any work. I just need to arrange an off-site backup next and I'll be sorted.

magicbastarder

i *usually* delete the RAW files after PP. i ****ing hate PP, so there's no way i'm going to keep them so i can revisit that hell unless the RAW files are particularly good.

Nebezpeci Mys

I have to agree with many previous posts - Lightroom is the way to go IMO.

I have all photos saved in folders by year and then subfolders named 2011-07-26 Name of the event. All RAWs go in there and then are imported into Lightroom. I PP and export into JPEGs only the ones I believe are the best. If I have any shots for HDR, exposure blending, etc. I do them from the RAW files, save as TIFF's and then PP through Lightroom. All JPEGs are saved in yet another subfolder called JPEGs. If I have any 'Digimarced' photos they are saved in a separate folder and numbered as my licence is for a limited amount of images only...

Backup of the folders is done usually once I'm finished with the PP & upload.

Hope it helps.

alfalad

Following on from this does anyone use Apple's Aperture? Or is lightroom where it's at? I'm currently saving up for a big spend on some equipment, and wondering as I will prob buy a Macbook Pro would buying Aperture be a good bet? Also will it allow a good bit of post processing, enough to keep an amateur happy? Photoshop is not cheap and as this is not something I intend making any living off I'm hoping Aperture will give me enough functions to adjust the raw files. Anybody with experience of it?

dmg1982

shemwhistler wrote: »

@magicbastarder & @challengemaster I'm more inclined to keep everything as I'm a hoarder and with HDD space now it's not really an issue, but I wouldn't PP or upload every file to flickr. Currently I;

1. Import all files from camera to a file called import.
2. Geotag them all with Picassa
3. Decide if any need PP and copy them to a folder 'To PP'.
4. Copy any that I want on our Apple TV to the specific folder for that.
5. Copy any I want to upload to flickr to a folder 'Flickr'
6. Store all my originals by date/event e.g Jun 11 - General or Jun 11 - Botanic Gardens.
7. PP any images in the To PP folder.
8. Repeat steps 4 to 6
9. Upload files to Flickr
10. Delete files from Flickr folder

This seems like a crazy amount of copying... better to have the master RAW files in one place and let your software (whatever it is) reference it.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i *usually* delete the RAW files after PP. i ****ing hate PP, so there's no way i'm going to keep them so i can revisit that hell unless the RAW files are particularly good.

I would definitely not recommend anybody do this. It's the same as shooting a roll of film, developing it, making some prints then throwing the negatives in the bin. As mentioned on this thread already, hard drive space is extremely cheap so there's no reason to throw anything away (except the complete muck, such as very under/over exposed shots)

alfalad wrote: »

Following on from this does anyone use Apple's Aperture? Or is lightroom where it's at?

I prefer Aperture to Lightroom, the interface is far more streamlined and it has more useful features than Lightroom (geotagging, face detection, the ability to build books etc). It's also significantly cheaper at €79. However in terms of what you can do to an image, there's little difference between them.

The reason I changed to lightroom is because Aperture runs very slowly on my iMac, which is a good few years old now. With a new MBP this shouldn't be an issue. Both programs have free, fully functional 30-day trials, so see which one works best for you before you buy!

dmg1982

alfalad wrote: »

as I will prob buy a Macbook Pro would buying Aperture be a good bet? Also will it allow a good bit of post processing, enough to keep an amateur happy?

There's more than enough power there, for both 'pro' and 'amateur' users.

shemwhistler

The more I'm reading this thread the more I'm getting quite excited by this Lightroom software.

Does anybody know of any good deals for picking this up? As Amazon is coming in pretty steep.

magicbastarder

dmg1982 wrote: »

I would definitely not recommend anybody do this. It's the same as shooting a roll of film, developing it, making some prints then throwing the negatives in the bin.

you can continue to make digital prints off TIFFs when the RAW files have been deleted. you cannot continue to make prints off negatives when the negs have been destroyed.

as i said, i've little time for PP. i have no interest in revisiting shots i took several years ago and PPing them again.

dmg1982

magicbastarder wrote: »

you can continue to make digital prints off TIFFs when the RAW files have been deleted. you cannot continue to make prints off negatives when the negs have been destroyed.

as i said, i've little time for PP. i have no interest in revisiting shots i took several years ago and PPing them again.

True. However I still wouldn't recommend others delete their original files. Storage is very cheap and by leaving the original RAW files on disk it keeps options open. There's nothing forcing anyone to revisit or reprocess older images, especially if the process is something they're not going to enjoy.

magicbastarder

i'm a miser with HD space. i've got 140GB used from about 15 years of photography. and i'd like to reduce that to under 100GB.

dmg1982

shemwhistler wrote: »

The more I'm reading this thread the more I'm getting quite excited by this Lightroom software.

Does anybody know of any good deals for picking this up? As Amazon is coming in pretty steep.

It's a fairly fixed price (€299 here), however I've seen Amazon do some deals on it occasionally. The 30-day trial is free & fully functional, be sure to use that up before buying a license just so you're sure it's the right tool for you!

jaybeeveedub

dmg1982 wrote: »

I prefer Aperture to Lightroom, the interface is far more streamlined and it has more useful features than Lightroom (geotagging, face detection, the ability to build books etc). It's also significantly cheaper at €79. However in terms of what you can do to an image, there's little difference between them.

can't say I agree with this....

having used both I find that aperture has far fewer useful features than lightroom.... It's library pane is intuitive alright, but I rate it as the worst piece of Apple software yet (and I am a big fan of Apple)

It is also a memory and disk hog (I referenced a 1tb drive of raw images in Lr and 100gb in Aperture and the Aperture library was 80gb....!! the LR library is bout 8gb

regarding what you can do to an image LR is lightyears ahead of Aperture, it has a much more flexible raw conversion pane and much more useful localised application of adjustments



my 2c

alfalad

jaybeeveedub wrote: »

can't say I agree with this....

having used both I find that aperture has far fewer useful features than lightroom.... It's library pane is intuitive alright, but I rate it as the worst piece of Apple software yet (and I am a big fan of Apple)

It is also a memory and disk hog (I referenced a 1tb drive of raw images in Lr and 100gb in Aperture and the Aperture library was 80gb....!! the LR library is bout 8gb

regarding what you can do to an image LR is lightyears ahead of Aperture, it has a much more flexible raw conversion pane and much more useful localised application of adjustments



my 2c

Was that the latest version of Aperture? If so would it have changed much? The fact it's cheaper is also tempting.

JDxtra

Aperture is one fifth of the price of Lightroom. I trialled both, and Aperture had all I needed. Easy decision for me.

jaybeeveedub

alfalad wrote: »

Was that the latest version of Aperture? If so would it have changed much? The fact it's cheaper is also tempting.

its straight out of the box Aperture, so yes brand new.... you do really need to consider how fast your machine is....

I have LR on two machines, one in Dublin which is super fast, and one in the beach cottage ( G5 1.8 iMac) it can run happily, if not massively fast on the ancient iMac....

I have Aperture on the same machine in Dublin and a fast laptop, it is like trying top get blood from a stone to get it to process a preview of an image in the library on the laptop.... seriously memory hungry....

it is good dont get me wrong, but I'd buy a second hand copy of LR 2 any day ahead of it....

dmg1982

jaybeeveedub wrote: »

regarding what you can do to an image LR is lightyears ahead of Aperture, it has a much more flexible raw conversion pane and much more useful localised application of adjustments

my 2c

Can you elaborate on this and provide some examples, even hypothetical ones?

jaybeeveedub

graduated exposure, localised exposure, much better crop and straighten tools, adjustment brushing, better raw conversion, better grayscale conversion, better library management, better noise reduction, better image comparison tools, better access to full screen.....

mouse over on image to adjust the particular tonal range for a given tool.... just love that, what a genius feature!!

alfalad

jaybeeveedub wrote: »

its straight out of the box Aperture, so yes brand new.... you do really need to consider how fast your machine is....

I have LR on two machines, one in Dublin which is super fast, and one in the beach cottage ( G5 1.8 iMac) it can run happily, if not massively fast on the ancient iMac....

I have Aperture on the same machine in Dublin and a fast laptop, it is like trying top get blood from a stone to get it to process a preview of an image in the library on the laptop.... seriously memory hungry....

it is good dont get me wrong, but I'd buy a second hand copy of LR 2 any day ahead of it....

I'm planning a trip to NY when I go home next year, currently in Sydney, so will pick up a new MBP there and would prob get a high end one so would hope that would be fast enough.

dmg1982

jaybeeveedub wrote: »

graduated exposure, localised exposure, much better crop and straighten tools, adjustment brushing, better raw conversion, better grayscale conversion, better library management, better noise reduction, better image comparison tools, better access to full screen.....

mouse over on image to adjust the particular tonal range for a given tool.... just love that, what a genius feature!!

Aperture has brushes, with which you can selectively apply any adjustment settings to any part of the image. The mouseover tool in lightroom will apply adjustments globally. Full screen mode is a simple one key click and all key adjustments can be accessed via the HUD (without having to go through any clunky modules).

Noise reduction does work out better in LR to be fair.

Anyway, it's getting off-topic to discuss the pros and cons of each... there's a free trial available for both programs so anybody interested in either can put them well through their paces before parting with any cash.

jaybeeveedub

dmg1982 wrote: »

Aperture has brushes, with which you can selectively apply any adjustment settings to any part of the image. The mouseover tool in lightroom will apply adjustments globally. Full screen mode is a simple one key click and all key adjustments can be accessed via the HUD (without having to go through any clunky modules).

Noise reduction does work out better in LR to be fair.

sorry, you are right, I meant to preface that with better localised adjustments... I know the mouseover applies globally, but that's what I want it to do, and it is still genius!!

And I much prefer a docked HUD....

regardless as you say both are trialable (??) but I do think it is a valid argument to have (far more so than canon v. nikon for example!!)

A good sensible argument can shed light on a subject for those unsure of which way to go....

dmg1982

While argument can shed light on the pros/cons of one solution over the other it's based on individual preferences which are different for everybody. The only way of knowing which bit of software works best for you is to actually try them all out.

In the same way the canon v nikon debate has never produced better photographers, a software debate is unlikely to produce a better workflow for anyone.

trialable is a cool new word that all the hip kids are using btw

sollisb

If I'm not too late.. I'll describe my photography workflow.

First my setup;

Typical family, PCs & Laptops. 1 x NAS drive connected to router, containing films, user directories, and photography (youtube downloads, dvds, PS tutorials, and soft-archive). Additionally I have about 4tb of offline data storage. These are master archive drives.

Workflow;

1. Take both cards out of camera and copy contents to soft archive (NAS drive). The directory structure is;
2011
--01 Jan
----01 New Years Day

---

RAW
...
...
--08 August
----01 Brennnastown Dolmen

---

RAW

The reason for the number for months and days is to keep everything sorted :cool:

Everything from cards goes into the RAW directories. Cards are formatted after the copy is complete and rotated through other sets and into the camera. (Batteries the same, I have 4, when 1 is flat I put it on charge and put the next highest battery number into the camera. I marked them 1-4)

2. Load up Lightroom and import the day folder I just created. Last Monday I imported 01 Brennanstown Dolmen

3. Wait for Lighroom to import and create thumbnails. This can take anywhere from a quick smoke to a movie, depending on number of shots taken.

4. I quickly scan through all shots and flag the rejects. (out of focus, crap composition, terrible sky, whatever)

5. Scan again and flag 5 to all shos I am definitely going to keep and work on.

6. Scan again and flag RED to any shot that were for HDR

7. Scan again and flag BLUE to any I want to Mono

8. Scan again for possible keepers and flag 1-4 depending on taste/choice

Now we're at editing stage;

9. Depending on how good a photographer I was on the day will dictate whether I use Lightroom for quick clean or edits, or whether I edit the shots in PhotoShop for a more detailed edit. PS edit usually mean 3-5 hr edits.

9a. Determine proper black and white points and initial crop if any
9b. Determine overall brightness
9c. Determine contrast (selective edit)
9d. Determine selective brightness
9e. Any fancy stuff..
9f. Final crop?
9g. Denoise?
9h. Sharpening?
9i Combine all layers into 1

10. Add my signature to the image.

11. In either case, I'll convert the edited RAW to full JPG and store it in the directory above. In this this example, the RAWs are in RAW and the JPGs are in 01 Brennanstown Dolmen.

11a. Sometimes then use PicNik to add a frame.

12. Using Lightroom, drag the 'for flickr' to the flickr photostream plugin and publish to flickr.

13. Jump to flickr, set the geotag, title, description, sets/groups

14. Be happy!

That's pretty much end of editing.

I'll then revisit the 'rejects' and ensure they are rejects and also determine why I rejected them and try to remember for the next time I'm at that location.

I'll perma-delete absolute rejects. Everything else gets kept. I should say tho, I am ruthless with rejects, I rarely keep something unless I like it and am going to work on it now or later.

Typically, once or twice a week, I'll copy the soft-archive over to the hard-archive.

That's my way, it may be of use

-B-

ditpaintball

My 2 cents here.

I used to use Lightroom for RAW development and file managment, but stopped when i got photoshop. I now use bridge and photoshop to take care of my workflow ( for now). I still use lightroom for tethering though. If you have photoshop, then I don't think you need lightroom. Some reasons are:

• If you are comfortable with photoshop actions, you can make your own actions to do most of the same stuff, and even more custom things.
• The RAW developer in Lightroom = Adobe Camera Raw that comes with Photoshop
• Bridge is a great tool for file management if you are designing wedding albums in Indesign etc.

If you want just a basic image editor, RAW Developer and image managment system, the lightroom would be great.


A quick summary of my current work flow is as follows:

1. While on location, images from CF card get saved to laptop in project folder named yymmdd--project. There is a folder called "RAW" in that for the RAW Files.

2. Open bridge and view the folder to start weeding out the crap images, deleting obvious bad ones, too dark, bad pose, bad test shots, etc etc.. I do this quickly using the CTRL + B viewer

3. At this point I do bulk rename of the files via bridge to correspond with the yymmdd-image-number.cr2 (cr2 = canon raw. nef = nikon raw etc.) and they are backed up to external HDD

4. I now go through images using the CTRL + L viewer to view images bigger and checking for sharpness. Images I like I rate 3***. Behind the scenes shots get a 2**

5. I then sort by 3***'s, select all and run photoshop action on the batch. This action takes the selected images, does basic brightness, contrast etc, resizes them, adds a watermark and saves them onto a folder on the desktop

6. This folder then either gets zipped and emailed to clients for review or it the images can be created into a web gallery for clients to view the images. This can be done automatically as you enter your server ftp details etc.

7. Once I get the images numbers that they like, I rate them 4****s or even 5*****, depending on the job.

8. These pics are then left on the computer to be worked on, all other files are moved off the laptop... double checking they are on the external HDD before deleting off working laptop drive.

9. Images are edited, resized and saved and delivered as needed.


I have overly simpified it there to give you the idea with out making it hard to follow

jaybeeveedub

sollisb wrote: »

If I'm not too late.. I'll describe my photography workflow.


11. In either case, I'll convert the edited RAW to full JPG and store it in the directory above. In this this example, the RAWs are in RAW and the JPGs are in 01 Brennanstown Dolmen.

sounds like a good workflow, one question though, which is one that I struggle with in LR...

once you select 01 Brennanstown Dolmen in the Navigator pane, which as far as I can make out, is where your edited jpgs reside. instead of seeing just the images at that level, you will see all of the images below that level in the directory structure also... i.e. all of the raw image from the shoot as well... at least thats how my copy works! Have you found a way top switch this on and off???

dmg1982

jaybeeveedub wrote: »

Have you found a way top switch this on and off???

If I understand your question correctly a solution is to simply filter by file type (to show only jpegs)... this will also show any jpegs in the lower directory levels. You can also add other criteria to the same filter (such as only images with a 4 star rating or more) and save it as a preset.

One thing I didn't detail in my workflow overview is the use of keywords, flags and ratings within Lightroom/Aperture. Proper keywording makes for very easy building of 'Smart Collections' which can scan the entire library or specific directories using both the original camera metadata and anything added by the user.

For example I can create a smart collection to show all 5 star wedding portraits in my library that were shot in 2009 with a Canon 5D & 70-200mm f/2.8 camera/lens combination... and processed to black&white.

dmg1982

sollisb wrote: »

Typical family, PCs & Laptops. 1 x NAS drive connected to router, containing films, user directories, and photography (youtube downloads, dvds, PS tutorials, and soft-archive). Additionally I have about 4tb of offline data storage. These are master archive drives.

So your main referenced drive is on the network? Any time I've processed images over my network (gigabit ethernet) it's been very slow.
My image library is on a 7200rpm external drive connected via FW800... any tips on how to get close to or match that speed over a network (without incurring huge costs) would be greatly appreciated.

JDxtra

Worth noting that Adobe are discounting Lightroom at the moment. It's even cheaper on Amazon UK - €133 for boxed version including ROI delivery.

challengemaster

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm a miser with HD space. i've got 140GB used from about 15 years of photography. and i'd like to reduce that to under 100GB.

Jesus :eek: I'd easily have 20gb from 2 days

MartMax

Has anyone have their RAW files hosted on a network drive (NAS) or file server but working on Lightroom catalogs on their local machine. Wondering if a Gigabit network is fast enough for this.

The size of RAW collections has grow significantly this year, I am considering to either show 2 x 2TB drive (RAID 1) into the desktop or built a dedicated NAS. Or I might have them both done if budget permits.

Paulw

MartMax wrote: »

Has anyone have their RAW files hosted on a network drive (NAS) or file server but working on Lightroom catalogs on their local machine. Wondering if a Gigabit network is fast enough for this.

The size of RAW collections has grow significantly this year, I am considering to either show 2 x 2TB drive (RAID 1) into the desktop or built a dedicated NAS. Or I might have them both done if budget permits.

I have my files stored on my main PC (mirrored on a NAS), and have a Lightroom catalogue on my laptop which refers to the images on the PC. No problems at all across the network. Works just fine with speed. Both are gig ethernet, but shouldn't be a problem over 100mb ethernet either.

jpb1974

For Lightroom users - I found a few of these tips useful -

10 Tips to Improve Lightroom’s Speed and Performance Without Additional Hardware

http://www.digital-photography-school.com/10-tips-to-improve-lightrooms-speed-and-performance-without-additional-hardware