Is the heavyweight division wide open to a crossover athlete?

davegrohl48

Is the heavyweight division wide open to a crossover athlete right now to come in and win a world title or get themselves ranked to take on the Klitchkos.
Back in the decent era for heavyweights we'll say early 70's to early 90's you had to be able to box with the full array of skills and you had to be physically up to it. Any boxer who wasn't so skillful made up for it with their physique eg. George Foreman.
Now we see heavyweights that are highly ranked that don't seem to have the skills and don't seem physically up to much.
The skill level is so low that it ain't the big step it used to be. Take the example of Adrian Peterson NFL(just an example of who I think could be up to it, I may of course be wrong, General point is a crossover athlete) he is an incredibly strong, fast, agile and decent stamina guy (runs back into place after his long runs). How is the skill level of the likes of Fury, Chisora going to be that hard for him to pickup. Footwork wise I would say he could pass them out whithin a few lessons. Hands he'd have a left jab, straight right off whithin a few lessons.
Footwork I am almost certain I am right as I seen a video of Peterson learning off coordinated difficult moves for a SPARQ test and he got it to running pace after a few trys. This was basically learned footwork from scratch up to running pace beyond what most athletes can run the same test at.
Overall strength and conditioning would be no contest on day one, the stamina of the division has gone downhill it seems.
Coordination and balance, he would eventually pass the also rans out.
Now I know he'd get his a$$ handed to him in the decent era by the Holyfields, Tysons etc. but I just don't see the current division doing the same to a crossover athlete.
Thoughts anyone? Any ideas on who could crossover to be successful? Strong enough, and coordinated enough to put themselves into top rankings ahead of Fury/Chisora for instance.

DB10

I can see it happening when the Klitschos soon retire because there will be a big void to fill and not many of the current heavyweights can fill it.

I still think though that the experience of being in the ring for several years is a massive advantage to current boxers.

walshb

Hi Dave,

I hope you are not impying that George Formean was in some way not skilled, and relied on brute strength? Yes, he had brute strength, and did use it, but the man had skill too. He did not solely rely on power and strength. He had the tools as well.

davegrohl48

Yes agreed Foreman has skills better than likes of current crop. But I just mean not up to Ali, Holmes, prime Tyson level of skills. He did rely heavily on being a big strong heavyweight to some degree, but he could box.
I used to believe that it was too difficult for people to crossover and for the lower weight divisions I believe it certainly is. But the guys I'm seeing at heavyweight, their speed, coordination and stamina is truly shocking to be thinking of them as world ranked contenders. One time you could dress the top 10 in casuals walk them down the street and people would think "Looks like an athlete". Now if you did the same, people would think "That's an athlete, no way!!!".
I just think a focussed athlete with innate talent for hand eye coordination and agility would walk through these guys once he had the basics down. Basics being footwork, solid hands up defence, left jab, hard straight right.
A guy with top coordination from field sports will improve his punches to an effective degree suprisingly quickly. All yer looking for him to do is survive the early rounds and press home his physical advantages in speed and strength after four rounds.

cowzerp

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Yes agreed Foreman has skills better than likes of current crop. But I just mean not up to Ali, Holmes, prime Tyson level of skills. He did rely heavily on being a big strong heavyweight to some degree, but he could box.
I used to believe that it was too difficult for people to crossover and for the lower weight divisions I believe it certainly is. But the guys I'm seeing at heavyweight, their speed, coordination and stamina is truly shocking to be thinking of them as world ranked contenders. One time you could dress the top 10 in casuals walk them down the street and people would think "Looks like an athlete". Now if you did the same, people would think "That's an athlete, no way!!!".
I just think a focussed athlete with innate talent for hand eye coordination and agility would walk through these guys once he had the basics down. Basics being footwork, solid hands up defence, left jab, hard straight right.
A guy with top coordination from field sports will improve his punches to an effective degree suprisingly quickly. All yer looking for him to do is survive the early rounds and press home his physical advantages in speed and strength after four rounds.

George Foreman had excellent footwork, speed for his size and crazy power and had a granite chin, even if crossover athletes could pick up skills fast does not mean they will get used to been hit by a heavyweight, odds are they would just crumble when hit by an average heavyweight, also top conditioning in most sports wont crossover into Boxing, the fitness is different and as these lads would have to work hard to get punches off etc they would be gassing fast, the likes of Ali could use his skillls to rest when needed, unless super skilled this would not work.

Boooourns

Sonny Bill Williams who's the New Zealand rugby player is currently trying his hand at boxing, he'll be playing in Septembers World cup (a vital player as well) but has had i think around 5 fights. He's a monster of a lad and he's trying to make it as a heavyweight. Be interesting to see how he gets on.

Johner

Boooourns wrote: »

Sonny Bill Williams who's the New Zealand rugby player is currently trying his hand at boxing, he'll be playing in Septembers World cup (a vital player as well) but has had i think around 5 fights. He's a monster of a lad and he's trying to make it as a heavyweight. Be interesting to see how he gets on.

He looks shocking, won't go far at all.

Boooourns

Johner wrote: »

He looks shocking, won't go far at all.

Oh right, i haven't seen him at all.

Squall19

Johner wrote: »

He looks shocking, won't go far at all.

He would get slaughtered alright, wouldn't mind seeing Lomu do it:D

Rumours have been going around that the world's number one kick boxing champion Alistair Overeem is thinking about going into boxing.

No one is giving him a chance of beating anyone decent at heavy, there isnt much hope for Sonny Bill and co then if he doesn't have a chance.

Overeem's hands are just ok, its how he puts it all together that makes him very dangerous in K1.While Sonny Bill has nothing going for him, he's not even that big, his body looks out of proportion for a pro boxer.

1 thing that stops all these becoming Top Fighters is defence!!, .for every punch your big strong Sonny Bill throws....and misses... he would receive
2 back lighting fast and VERY HARD.

Funny how OP says Boxing at heavy requires no skill, when infact its the opposite, it requires alot more skill than any other weight division, because at heavy you cant get hit.

bigwormbundoran

I remember when Mayweather "fought" The Big Show at Wrestlemania a few years back, Big Show had been out of the WWE for a while and said he had tried to be a pro heavyweight boxer but couldnt get anyone to fight him so had to give up without a fight, I dont know how much of this is true, but i would imagine he would nearly be able to do well in the division, because he is certainly more agile and nimble than Valuev whilst still being 7 foot tall.

Squall19

bigwormbundoran wrote: »

I remember when Mayweather "fought" The Big Show at Wrestlemania a few years back, Big Show had been out of the WWE for a while and said he had tried to be a pro heavyweight boxer but couldnt get anyone to fight him so had to give up without a fight, I dont know how much of this is true, but i would imagine he would nearly be able to do well in the division, because he is certainly more agile and nimble than Valuev whilst still being 7 foot tall.

Every pub in every town has an overweight hardman who reckons he could batter that Tyson/Lewis/Haye because "them boxers are all pussies".

Quite why they didn't go in for earning millions from fighting these 'pussies' is never made clear.

The worlds stongest man of the last decade, Mariusz Pudzianowski tried his hand at mma recently, this a man who won five World's Strongest Man titles—more than any other athlete—as well as two runner-up titles and he got killed by a nobody James Thompson.

Big Show would get killed.

Spazdarn

In the Big Show's defence I think his loss to Mayweather was predetermined...

yimrsg

I would imagine professional boxers (even heavyweights) would have better aerobic conditioning than nfl players that would be naturally heavyweight. That coupled with the mental and physical drain of out thinking and acting your opponent for 3 minutes solid where even the smallest lapse resulting in defeat. There are very few other non combat sports comparable to the mental and physical duress of boxing at top level and as such any athlete would be stepping in to the unknown.

With regard the heavyweight division on the whole being poor in depth, I'd go back to say that it's been like that since Lennox Lewis. For me Lewis wasn't all that great during his pomp, he seemed too overconfident and got punished for it. I'd fancy Vitali to do better against various heavyweights throughout the ages as he's got a better chin and hasn't shown the same overconfidence as Lewis did at certain times.

bigwormbundoran

Squall19 wrote: »

Every pub in every town has an overweight hardman who reckons he could batter that Tyson/Lewis/Haye because "them boxers are all pussies".

Quite why they didn't go in for earning millions from fighting these 'pussies' is never made clear.

The worlds stongest man of the last decade, Mariusz Pudzianowski tried his hand at mma recently, this a man who won five World's Strongest Man titles—more than any other athlete—as well as two runner-up titles and he got killed by a nobody James Thompson.

Big Show would get killed.

Pudzian is more or less an immobile big lump of muscle though and is gassed after a minute or so. Once hes taken to the ground hes fooked, except when he fought Butterbean, an even bigger lump, though of fat in his case. The sports are uncomparable in that aspect, also Pudzian isnt tall or anything, which I think would be the Big Shows main (only?) advantage if he were to enter the world of boxing, I dont think hed beat the Klitschkos or anything, but if he got a few fights under his belt id imagine he would be able to beat the likes of John Ruiz if he didnt "retire", who was fighting for world titles a year ago, this may not be much of a level to aim for or anything, but I doubt he would be killed now.

cowzerp

bigwormbundoran wrote: »

Pudzian is more or less an immobile big lump of muscle though and is gassed after a minute or so. Once hes taken to the ground hes fooked, except when he fought Butterbean, an even bigger lump, though of fat in his case. The sports are uncomparable in that aspect, also Pudzian isnt tall or anything, which I think would be the Big Shows main (only?) advantage if he were to enter the world of boxing, I dont think hed beat the Klitschkos or anything, but if he got a few fights under his belt id imagine he would be able to beat the likes of John Ruiz if he didnt "retire", who was fighting for world titles a year ago, this may not be much of a level to aim for or anything, but I doubt he would be killed now.

Big show im sorry to say would be killed, he's a big slow actor-been big dont make a Heavyweight Boxer, these lads are training Boxing 20-30 years and some big lad with farmer hooks aint going to beat anyone with any credibility.

bigwormbundoran

cowzerp wrote: »

Big show im sorry to say would be killed, he's a big slow actor-been big dont make a Heavyweight Boxer, these lads are training Boxing 20-30 years and some big lad with farmer hooks aint going to beat anyone with any credibility.

The lack of too many with any credibility is the crux of the issue though is it not?

davegrohl48

I didn't say (just in response) that heavyweights have no skill. I'm basically saying some of the top ranked contenders are not all that skilled. This high level of skill was what always made crossing into boxing difficult. The skill level in heavyweights for the top ranked has collapsed of late it seems.
Similar the stamina levels. Yes yer typical NFL player will struggle for stamina with even the likes of Fury/Chisora. But Adrian Peterson the example I gave is not yer typical NFL player. He would have more stamina than Fury/Chisora given that he is carrying no bodyfat and is carrying much less bodyweight around a ring on stronger legs. While at the same time being incredibly strong for his weight of 15/16 stone. He's trained track up to 400m. That distance involves a reasonable level of anaerobic activity. Boxing is generally rated circa 60% anaerobic and even higher at heavyweight naturally enough.
- Sonny Bill is not a great crossover to boxing as his first step speed is not all that great.
- Pudzian has absolute zero stamina.
- Every pub having a hardman, that's Mr. Joe Soap yer talking about. We're discussing whether strong coordinated athletes can cross over into the current heavyweight division. Coordination ability you are pretty much born with. A top level athlete will pickup boxing quicker than Mr. Joe Soap.

cowzerp

The heavyweight division is not as bad as people think, Haye has about 10 lads who'd smash him up, people are assuming he's no2 which he is not.

When I see an athlete cross over into top level boxing I'll eat my own head, won't happen apart from them getting beat up bad.

Boxing is a serious skill and people suggesting this is insulting to be honest and clueless at best, top kickboxers and Mma fighters can't do it or they would so no way some athletic football player would.

Squall19

Squall19 wrote: »

He would get slaughtered alright, wouldn't mind seeing Lomu do it:D

Rumours have been going around that the world's number one kick boxing champion Alistair Overeem is thinking about going into boxing.

No one is giving him a chance of beating anyone decent at heavy, there isnt much hope for Sonny Bill and co then if he doesn't have a chance.

Overeem's hands are just ok, its how he puts it all together that makes him very dangerous in K1.While Sonny Bill has nothing going for him, he's not even that big, his body looks out of proportion for a pro boxer.

1 thing that stops all these becoming Top Fighters is defence!!, .for every punch your big strong Sonny Bill throws....and misses... he would receive
2 back lighting fast and VERY HARD.

Funny how OP says Boxing at heavy requires no skill, when infact its the opposite, it requires alot more skill than any other weight division, because at heavy you cant get hit.

I agree he will never make it but the lad is a tank.Hes less than 4 lbs lighter than wlad klitscho at weigh in and hes 3 inches smaller.

megadodge

I think the OP is overlooking a few things here - and he's not the first to do it.

Down through the decades there have been numerous examples of the "look at the size and co-ordination of him, he'd kill anyone he hits" mentality, which completely ignores 1. the incredible skill levels of top class boxers 2. the huge mental aspect involved 3. the durability factor. This has resulted in a virtually 100% failure rate of crossover athletes making any sort of impact in a boxing ring.

OP I'm not having a go when I say that it's pretty obvious you've never been in a ring. What looks so basic from the outside is anything but. You seem to think knowing how to stand, hold your hands in position and throw a 1-2 is good enough to take you far. It isn't! It's ok for punching a punchbag, but when facing a moving target that hits back the inability to hit even an average boxer while not being able to avoid his punches in return is what seperates a 'boxer' from an 'athlete'. That takes years and years to perfect.

With that also comes the fear/nervous energy/tension aspect that can get to anyone in the ring. Mike Tyson openly admitted to often being petrified with the thoughts of going into the ring. There's a famous video of him as a teenager breaking down in tears shortly before a bout (which he won by KO1). If it can do that to him, imagine what a person new to boxing is going to feel, when he takes his first few punches to the nose and doesn't have the requisite skill to get out of the way of the punches he knows are coming his way for the rest of the bout. That's when you often see panic or quitting.

Then, there's the ability to absorb punishment, round after round after round. There's no sport in the world where competitors consistently take as much punishment as in boxing. These men are the hardest men on the planet! Bar none! Athletes in other sports (and American footballers are very tough men, but it's one crash every few minutes at worst) have no experience of being hit over and over for three solid minutes, followed by another three, followed by another three, etc.

As any amount of white collar boxers will tell you, boxing is WAY, WAY harder than it looks.

davegrohl48

Guys we've had at least some interesting debate and that is the whole point of this place. To keep things on track.
- Crossover athlete, 2 years training with tune up fights. That is something roughly what Sonny Bill has done, so they will not be taking their first few punches to the nose.
- I don't expect someone to come in master 1 -2, keep their hands up and march their way to a title. I just brought that up as I consider it the bread and butter you firstly have to master in the heavyweight division especially where most boxers have a long reach.
- I'm not really even mentioning the title, just beating some of the top ranked.
- Top ranked is difficult to assess. But the following have been on tv in the last few years picking up decent paychecks and getting possible routes to titles (Kevin McBride, Valuev, 50 yr old Holyfield, Tomasz Adamek, Audley Harrison)
Sergio Martinez has already done this in middleweight in a division which has a higher skill level than heavyweight. His story was that he started boxing at 20 (open to correction)
Sonny Bill I don't rate but he has won all of his fights easily against pro's doin it longer than him.
After two years training with tune up fights I still think a crossover athlete who suits boxing can beat alot of fighters with reasonable rankings and title challenging hopes.
Kevin McBride is right now worse than Sonny Bill at least give me that

cowzerp

davegrohl48 wrote: »

- Top ranked is difficult to assess. But the following have been on tv in the last few years picking up decent paychecks and getting possible routes to titles (Kevin McBride, Valuev, 50 yr old Holyfield, Tomasz Adamek, Audley Harrison)
Sergio Martinez has already done this in middleweight in a division which has a higher skill level than heavyweight. His story was that he started boxing at 20 (open to correction)
Sonny Bill I don't rate but he has won all of his fights easily against pro's doin it longer than him.
After two years training with tune up fights I still think a crossover athlete who suits boxing can beat alot of fighters with reasonable rankings and title challenging hopes.
Kevin McBride is right now worse than Sonny Bill at least give me that

Mcbride is ****e and Prob not in top 50, Harrison is about 4th rank in England if even that, Holyfield is a legend and living on his rep-adamek is not bad and valuev although I don't rate him uses his size well.

Boxing is not a new sport and crossover efforts is not new so no reason the success ratio will change.

Maybe a top basketball player will cross over to soccer though!

davegrohl48

Crossovers happen between sports regularly guys. We will leave aside whatever people think of the participation levels, skill, fitness of following sports. But successful crossovers have happened.

Basketball -> GAA: Ronan McGarrity had nowhere near enough background playing GAA to start inter county midfield for Mayo and he came back from a basketball scholarship to make his debut midfield. He had hardly played for his club at senior. He was already dedicated to basketball before he left. He never even went near Mayo Minor trials.
GAA -> Soccer. Kevin Moran and there have been others.
GAA -> Aussie Rules numerous.
Aussie Rules -> GAA. Clearly possible for a big full forward target man type.
Track n Field -> NFL (Numerous)
NFL -> track n field (Numerous)
Several sports -> Cricket (Look at Irish team)

If you had an athletic basketballer with coordination it is not impossible he could make it in soccer. His job is certainly made hard though by the enormous participation levels in soccer globally when considering playing at a top pro level.

cowzerp

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Crossovers happen between sports regularly guys. We will leave aside whatever people think of the participation levels, skill, fitness of following sports. But successful crossovers have happened.

Basketball -> GAA: Ronan McGarrity had nowhere near enough background playing GAA to start inter county midfield for Mayo and he came back from a basketball scholarship to make his debut midfield. He had hardly played for his club at senior. He was already dedicated to basketball before he left. He never even went near Mayo Minor trials.

Was still a GAA player, basketball hardly improved his GAA skills

GAA -> Soccer. Kevin Moran and there have been others.
Was always into both sports, diod not switch, just stopped playing Gaelic.

GAA -> Aussie Rules numerous.

Very similar games

Aussie Rules -> GAA. Clearly possible for a big full forward target man type.
Track n Field -> NFL (Numerous)
NFL -> track n field (Numerous)

So they can run lots and catch an egg shaped ball.

Several sports -> Cricket (Look at Irish team)

Cricket has similar skill sets to Hurling, Baseball etc

If you had an athletic basketballer with coordination it is not impossible he could make it in soccer. His job is certainly made hard though by the enormous participation levels in soccer globally when considering playing at a top pro level.

i doubt you ever played sports if you think a Basketball player could transition into Soccer and u think NFL lads can just transition into Boxing when top Kickboxers struggle to transition into it!

Been honest its clear you know zero about Boxing and are just an armchair fan.

yimrsg

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Crossovers happen between sports regularly guys. We will leave aside whatever people think of the participation levels, skill, fitness of following sports. But successful crossovers have happened.

Basketball -> GAA: Ronan McGarrity had nowhere near enough background playing GAA to start inter county midfield for Mayo and he came back from a basketball scholarship to make his debut midfield. He had hardly played for his club at senior. He was already dedicated to basketball before he left. He never even went near Mayo Minor trials.
GAA -> Soccer. Kevin Moran and there have been others.
GAA -> Aussie Rules numerous.
Aussie Rules -> GAA. Clearly possible for a big full forward target man type.
Track n Field -> NFL (Numerous)
NFL -> track n field (Numerous)
Several sports -> Cricket (Look at Irish team)

If you had an athletic basketballer with coordination it is not impossible he could make it in soccer. His job is certainly made hard though by the enormous participation levels in soccer globally when considering playing at a top pro level.

That last bit of your post is nearly ridiculous, hand-eye coordination in one sport to foot-eye coordination in the other. You're not exactly advancing your side of the argument more the case you're impeding it.

There are very few decathlon/modern pentathlon athletes who can compete in two or more of their chosen disciplines at a world class level in athletics against single sport athletes so for a person to go from being near the top of their sport to the top of another unrelated sport is almost unheard.

You said numerous in your examples but the fact is even guys like Jonah Lomu and Brian Habana who are/were very fast in rugby terms aren't going to be near the level of a professional sprinter challenging for gold medals at the olympics. NFL to boxing is even far more removed than rugby is to sprinting.

walshb

Jeez, guys, relax. Dave is a frequent poster here who knows boxing, and you guys are getting in a strop because he's asking questions and making points.
He may well be off the mark, but he does make some salient points.

It is well possible that an athlete from another sport could be a contender in boxing. Not all, but I am sure there are many people who just happen to be damn good at sport. Are very balanced, coordinated and committed, and with the right trainer and training could well do very well in the sport.

Dave is not saying the heavies are not skilled, he just sees that particular division as weaker in terms of skill. Big deal. He may well be right there.

Lay off with the patronising. I know, I can be guilty of it too, we all can, but reading the posts here I think it' unwarranted.

Jordan transitioned into Baseball, and there have been several examples thru history of men and women who have excelled in different sports.

Katie Taylor, anyone????

James Toney was a very capable American Football player before he found out that he was also a very
capable boxer.

Roy Jones with extra height probably would have been an NBA star...

davegrohl48

Well let's not get side tracked, I didn't bring basketball to soccer into it, that was brought up by someone before me. Ronan McGarrity was primarily a basketballer and was nominated for an All Star at midfield I'm pretty sure.
Leaving that aside.
Modern Decathletes are much closer than you think to competing at a world class level in their discipline. You are trying to use this as some kind of reason why you can't cross over into boxing.
Roman Serble is not that much slower than David Gillick over 400m. Similar Bryan Clay. The poorer ranked heavyweights are by comparison miles away in standard from the likes of Klitchko/Povetkin.
I'm not saying a Crossover athletes after 2 years training and tune up fights will be a world champion heavyweight. But I do think they could beat some of the poorer ranked heavyweights.
You can't claim the poorer ranked heavyweights to be in anywhere near the standard of Klitchkos best heavyweights going.

davegrohl48

By the way, people should be very wary of declaring something impossible. You can have whatever doubts about my sporting knowledge that's not the thread topic. But I'd say you were so quick to judge that you thought all basketballers are too tall and leggy to play soccer. I declared it not impossible, I didn't say likely. I have enough of a wide sporting knowledge and open mind to know that some basketballers have a perfectly regular phsyique suitable for soccer.
I respect boxing, that's not at issue, but comments like "run with egg shaped ball" are clearly disrespectful to other sports.

There is one point about boxing that I will bring up, and I am bringing it up due to the disrespect to other sports.
- Every boxer who turns pro counts as a professional boxer. In all other sports you have to be judged talented enough to turn pro. Soccer, basketball, nfl, even GAA given that you will not be picked if not good enough. In boxing no matter how bad you are you can turn pro. Just a thought when you consider how truly talented the top 50 heavyweights are. Most amateurs never turn pro. So the pressure on the top 50 from emerging talent couldn't possibly be anywhere near most other sports mentioned.

yimrsg

Katie Taylor wasn't a professional football player, she choose to focus on boxing and didn't go as far in football as she could do. I'm not aware of her being offered a professional contract so if so I'll admit to being wrong if she was offered. Also with the greatest respect to Katie Taylor's achievements so far, the world of women's boxing and football isn't as well established as the male counterparts so to be top of a small pile compared to being top of the pile in a greater pile lessens it under critical review.

The thread title suggests that the whole division is ripe for a crossover athlete not just those who are poor or competitive journeymen but all the way up to the top ranked athletes. There is no way in my mind that a skilled crossover could in 2 years approach the experience of a person whose dedicated possibly 20 years or so and reached the top of their profession; it seems disrespectful to me to suggest otherwise.

I don't expect someone to suddenly pick up the ring generalship, boxing acumen or the necessary skills that would be needed without at least 5 years before they'd be up to average HW standard. Fitness and physical levels would be easiest to bring up but improving a persons mental approach and the experience takes much longer.

To give an example, would anyone give Tyson Fury a hope against Vlad or Vitali? He's been boxing professionally since 2008. Even with his amateur record he's still at a disadvantage compared to seasoned professionals. The crossover athlete is even more impaired. Personally I'd think someone with masses of experience like Hopkins or Holyfield would beat Fury currently.

walshb

yimrsg wrote: »

Katie Taylor wasn't a professional football player, she choose to focus on boxing and didn't go as far in football as she could do. I'm not aware of her being offered a professional contract so if so I'll admit to being wrong if she was offered. Also with the greatest respect to Katie Taylor's achievements so far, the world of women's boxing and football isn't as well established as the male counterparts so to be top of a small pile compared to being top of the pile in a greater pile lessens it under critical .
.

Katie is the best amatuer p4p boxer in the world, and she also got selected to play soccer for her counrty. So, she isn't a pro footballer? So what. She is an example of a crossover athlete, who excelled in both sports.

Ok, so it's to do with womens sport not being as competitive? Ok, there are also examples of men being able to excell in multiple sports. There you go.

davegrohl48

A measured and reasonable response, yaay.
Yes the thread title is misleading I agree, but I didn't want to put in some long paragraph of a title. In my defence my first post made points about being able to take on some of the top ranked heavyweights. Fury (ranked 9)/Chisora type of level and lower.
You are right about the mental aspect. One problem I see with the likes of Sonny Bill is that he fights like he wants to dish out the punishment but never wants to give any remote chance of taking a shot himself. As soon as his opponent launches any attack he is cowering away and not staying balanced. Similar Ray Edwards who crossed over recently from NFL, not remaining calm and assured enough once the opponent attacks.
Tyson Fury actually has the same problem. Chisora launched some attacks in the 2nd round, most of them tbh missed and hit shoulders. Fury was going backwards at a rate of knots all the same. Not remaining calm under pressure.
What Fury has going for him is that he's big and seems to be able to take a shot. I don't believe he's even had an 8 count yet.
Fury has so much potential but he really needs straightening out technique wise and fitness wise. I don't think he even realizes how good his straight right could be if he improved it and learned to use his legs.

Big Ears

You hear this stuff all the time and in truth it very rarely works (and never works at heavyweight). Normally the few crossover successes are from other forms of pugilism. Kickboxers and Muay Thai fighters have been the most successful.

Vitali Klitschko and Alexander Povetkin are two fighters who had kickboxing careers in conjunction with amateur boxing careers. Sam Soliman and Matt Skelton were kickboxers who turned to boxing late in life, at 23 in Soliman's case and 34(at least) in Skelton's and still had reasonable success. Neither man ended up with much of a conventional style however and neither managed to capture a World crown despite some good wins. Veeraphol Sahaprom is possibly the best example of a Muay Thai fighter who took up boxing and quickly achieved success, winning a Bantamweight title within 9 months and becoming one of the finest Bantamweights of the modern era. There are plenty of other boxers with Muay Thai backgrounds, like our friend Poonsawat Kratindaengygym who came to these shores to dethrone our own Bernard Dunne.

Much rarer however are cases of fighters with limited or no fighting experience. Anthony Mundine is a great example of someone who had a limited background, with just 4 amateur fights although still became very successful. However it certainly is worth noting that his father Tony Mundine was a World Class Middleweight, who won Commonwealth titles at Middleweight and Light-Heavyweight when that really meant something. So despite only 4 amateur fights who knows how much training he had from his father. Mundine also possessed (not quite as much anymore) fantastic speed, reflexes and agility, so physically he did have it all.
Sergio Gabriel Martinez is someone who took up boxing late at 20 years of age and has gone on to be a tremendous fighter, again he's another with exceptional speed, but it has taken him a long long time to truly become as good as he is at his craft. Lets not forget he was annihilated by a green Anthonio Margarito, and by this stage Maravilla had been training as a boxer for 5 years and had over 2 years of pro boxing experience. It took him nearly 15 years at it before he reached his prime.


There have been plenty of American football players who have tried their hand at boxing, and to be honest I can't remember most of their names........why ?, because none of them had any great success. This Adrian Peterson is 26 years of age already, so even if he does have the athletic talent for boxing, even if he does have a solid chin, heart, power(and being strong doesn't mean you'll hit hard), general durability, there's no guarantee he'd have enough time to his his prime before he's physically in his prime. Wikipedia also mentions he's 6'1 and 217 lbs, if that's true he'd almost certainly be a Cruiser weight as a boxer anyway, or a severely under sized Heavyweight.
I'd bet my life savings on the guy never being good enough to beat Tyson Fury, who although not great at the moment is likely to improve a good bit from where he is now.


A few other things mentioned in the thread, Cowzerp (who like many seems to really dislike David Haye) mentioned that there's plenty of other guys out there that are better than Haye and would beat him and that Haye isn't really #2. Well Haye isn't #2 imo he's #3 after Wlad and Vitali, I don't see Adamek, Arreola, Povetkin, Chagev or Helenius beating him. Maybe an in shape Solis, but that in shape bit is asking for a lot.
Someone else criticised Lennox Lewis for fighting weak opponents, that's just plain ridiculous, Lewis has far and away the best Heavyweight resume of the last 30 years.

aidoroch

its been doing the rounds in the american sports press for a long time that the best heavyweight boxers in the world play in the NFL. Theres lots of theories behind why the largest physical athletes take the career path of football rather than boxing. Why try to make a living getting punched in the face when you could make a living as a squad member on a football team?
theres probably a lot you can read into it such as the agressive recruiting tactics of colleges to get good players and the fact that more young athletes stay in school longer these days than did in the 70's & 80's due to better education and scholarships etc including african americans who generally were the best heavyweights of these era's.

Anyway, in terms of making a cross over, its not as simple. the best boxers start at a young age, i dont know too many(feel free to correct me) that take it up in their late 20's and 30's and become a success. A good example of a potential crossover success is tom zbikowski who started boxing durign the NFL lockout, but he has a boxing past so has an advantage over novices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Zbikowski

also sonny bill williams has fought atrocious fighters and would get battered by a real fighter. check his boxrec

yimrsg

walshb wrote: »

Katie is the best amatuer p4p boxer in the world, and she also got selected to play soccer for her counrty. So, she isn't a pro footballer? So what. She is an example of a crossover athlete, who excelled in both sports.

Ok, so it's to do with womens sport not being as competitive? Ok, there are also examples of men being able to excell in multiple sports. There you go.

Katie didn't go all the way to top in football which to me is playing professional. She's reached it in amateur boxing but to say she's crossed over isn't exactly true she's more branched off and fully focused into boxing. It's like Conal Keaney or other dual code players switching between hurling and football. At a young age some people are just so talented they're going to achieve greatness in a sport with luck and aptitude. It's far harder for someone to be top in one sport and then start again in a new distinct discipline rather than do something you were a natural at a young age.

@davegrohl48

I think it's a near impossibility for someone to do it as they'd be at a disadvantage for a few reasons.

1) They're more likely to have a high profile (like Sonny Bill Williams) so they're subject to more criticism and praise so inevitably they'll be shot to pieces when they lose or overpraised should they win. Opponents will seek you out to make a name for themselves and you're being watched by 2 sets of supporters so you're unlikely to build up your skills without the world's media watching you.

2) The humility required would be massive. Going from a world beater in their chosen discipline to being bottom of the pile and starting again would be a massive mental feat. I wouldn't assume SBW will move away from rugby (either union or league) but he just enjoys boxing rather than have aspirations of challenging for world titles.

3) To leave a sport that they've known all their life and which probably has and may still continue to support them and maybe their family financially would be a folly to do at or before their physical peak. Athletes changeover when they've peaked rather than before. Dwayne Chambers taking up rugby league during his drug ban from athletics. Boxers or strongmen moving into MMA after years of dominance of their sports.

One need only look at Bob Sapp's career in kickboxing and MMA after leaving NFL and see how erratic it is.

walshb

yimrsg wrote: »

Katie didn't go all the way to top in football which to me is playing professional. She's reached it in amateur boxing but to say she's crossed over isn't exactly true she's more branched off and fully focused into boxing. It's like Conal Keaney or other dual code players switching between hurling and football. At a young age some people are just so talented they're going to achieve greatness in a sport with luck and aptitude. It's far harder for someone to be top in one sport and then start again in a new distinct discipline rather than do something you were a natural at a young age.
.

I know she didn't go all the way, but that doesn't mean that she could not have. She excelled in both sports. End of. She chose boxing full time.
The OP is not saying that the competitor needs to be competing at the very top in both at the same time.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Katie is the best amatuer p4p boxer in the world, and she also got selected to play soccer for her counrty. So, she isn't a pro footballer? So what. She is an example of a crossover athlete, who excelled in both sports.

Ok, so it's to do with womens sport not being as competitive? Ok, there are also examples of men being able to excell in multiple sports. There you go.

Bren, Katie is not a crossover, she was doing both from child hood so using her is an awful example, no 1 said you can't be good at 2 sports

An American football is egg shaped, where is the disrespect?
I'm simply saying been fast and been able to catch a ball can get you in an American football team.

He may know watching boxing but I know he knows nothing about it, it's disrespectful of it's skill in my opinion, saying they may beat a journeyman is ok but not any decent heavy-bar a complete lucky punch.

davegrohl48

I agree with cowzerp is the thing you see. I don't think they beat a decent heavy either. Right now from what I'v seen of heavyweights they would not beat Klitchkos, Haye, Povetkin, Fury on form, Chisora at 245lbs. But then all I'm saying is that there's a whole host of others in the top 50 you'd have serious reservations about. Basically do we even consider them decent heavies. Brings up a whole heap of questions of what is going on in general that the heavyweight division has slumped that much.
We'll forget about egg shaped balls and anyone disrepecting any sports.
I personally consider myself more knowledgable than the typical casual follower of boxing, you can agree with that or not.
I also consider myself knowledgable of GAA, Soccer, athletics. Go pickup a newspaper like the Sunday Indo, alot of the sports journalists have barely participated in sport. I'm not going to enter into a childish debate on what sports I have or have not participated in. I competed in athletics. How does that make my opinion on who will win the 800m in 2012 any more valid. BTW it will be David whatever his name from Kenya new record holder. I picked Fury to beat Chisora the other night because Chisora weighed in very heavy. I was first to spot that and called the round 3 as him being gassed. Whether I'v ever got punched in the face or not in a boxing ring didn't make my opinion anymore valid, but it went against the boxers opinions on here and was proved correct.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Bren, Katie is not a crossover, she was doing both from child hood so using her is an awful example, no 1 said you can't be good at 2 sports
.

Well spotted, Paul. I hand't thought of that.

But, there are still examples of person who can make a transition and be very good in two sports. Be world beaters? Rare, but possible.

yimrsg

walshb wrote: »

I know she didn't go all the way, but that doesn't mean that she could not have. She excelled in both sports. End of. She chose boxing full time.
The OP is not saying that the competitor needs to be competing at the very top in both at the same time.

True, but a world class athlete would at least know the dedication required to reach world class in their original chosen sport and would as a consequence might be more knowledgeable of what is required of them. Someone who hasn't reached that level wouldn't be know of the strive for dedication it required in the first place and as such might never attain it. My reckoning is it would be easier for an athlete who was world class in one discipline to achieve it again rather than for another athlete who wasn't world class to wasn't to achieve it in another discipline.

I might be too focused with the small percentage of top boxers in a particular class and not being representative of the standard of a weight division as a whole but if a NFL/MMA/etc athlete came in to a division and was comfortable at it but never really achieved greatness by beating the top boxers then they've not added to the division rather just pointed out the dearth in quality present. All that proves is that with the right support and careful opponent selection someone could have a career as a professional. You don't have to be a crossover from any sport in that case or even be a heavyweight.

I could see given the right individual with a past college/amateur boxing background moving into boxing from another highly physical sport given enough time and training reaching a decent level of a division but not truly ever reach the pinnacle. Ultimately that's what the OP is suggesting how to stop but all it would do is just add to more fuel to the fire that there are increasingly fewer top competitors in HW.

davegrohl48

Sergio Martinez is incredible. Information on him is sketchy but I'm working from basis that he was a competing cyclist and a competing footballer. But not elite level. Now that is pretty amazing as for instance distance cycling will develop mainly the muscles on the top o yer thighs and will waste away yer upper body n arms. Then you go and try and compete in something like boxing/soccer where you need flexibility and an evenly balanced physique. You have to totally rebuild your body. You have to build back up some of yer fast twitch fibres after destroying them with endurance work.

walshb

I think a little too much emphasis is being placed on what is required to be a top class boxer. Now, I have boxed and have been following the sport for many years. I know what is required, and am well aware of the skills and talent needed.

Take Dwight Muhammad Qawi. Started boxing in his 20s, and became a top class fighter. Now, what is odd to think that a talented sports athlete from say the NFL could not excel in the sport? The NFL player would more than likely have an advantge over Qawi, in that the NFL player is already an athlete, not a prison inmate.

The most important thing needed is the ability to throw punches. Some peopel aren't boxers, never tried it, but do have that natural ability to throw shots. So, the right trainer and training, along wth the other aspects, like balance, feet, coordination, stamina, all of which can be created, considering the NFL man will have natural balance, athleticism and coordination to begin with, can very well produce a talented fighter.

Also, in the heavyweight didvison, (more than other divisions) ONE punch can do the trick. One single shot.

It doesn't necessarily require a man to have been boxing since a boy to somehow excel in the sport.

davegrohl48

Bernard Hopkins came very late to the sport as well. One thing prison inmates have in their favour when thinking about boxing is time pretty much alone with themselves. They have to figure out themselves what style, technique, defence, offence suits their own body and how comfortable they feel in their boxing.
That's one mindset Hopkins carried into his career, basically "What works for me, and what are my capabilities"
On the other hand you have boxers who operate on the basis of "I'm a phenomenon I can do anything." N I think they suffer because of it. Nathan Cleverly for instance claiming he's a good fighter on the inside and then clearly when the actual fight takes place being far better off if he fought on the outside.
Cleverly when asked if he could move up to heavyweight replied something like "Well I'v a big frame ..." He honestly seemed to have some belief he could move up two divisions.
Similar crossover boxer Ray Edwards went on TV and said Manny Steward had said he could be "The best that ever done it". I had to laugh.
So all in all for any boxer I think the most improvement will be made by those who know what their strengths are and box/train accordingly.

makl

ultimately it comes down to hw being a weak division. maybe the easiest division for a crossover athlete to break into the top 50? ... BUT its a massive if.

what is a crossover athlete anyway? katie taylor not a crossover athlete? what is she then a dual code athlete? it cant be the level that determines it. maybe she started soccer at 5 and boxing at 9 so therefore she's crossed over.

nowadays kids are playing every sport at school anyway so in the future it'll be impossible not to have had a history of some sport or another.

then theres usa rugby, possibly georgian and argentinian rugby even. they're all successful 'crossover athletes'. they're all pretty good too. lendl's another for the record. but maybe he played golf on sundays when the tennis wasn't on.

dazza161989

Well i guess everyone was wrong about athletes crossing over into boxing.........Curtis woodhouse(former pro footballer) is fighting for british title in a few weeks!

Underground

Woodhouse has been boxing since he was a kid and even kept up training while he was a pro footballer. He used to get in trouble with his manager for showing up to the training ground with black eyes etc. he said boxing was his first love and football was just to pay the bills.

dazza161989

Underground wrote: »

Woodhouse has been boxing since he was a kid and even kept up training while he was a pro footballer. He used to get in trouble with his manager for showing up to the training ground with black eyes etc. he said boxing was his first love and football was just to pay the bills.

wouldent blame him, boxing is a sport for men, soccer is for little wimps who throw themselves on the floor!;-)

The man in red and black

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I competed in athletics. How does that make my opinion on who will win the 800m in 2012 any more valid. BTW it will be David whatever his name from Kenya new record holder.

Good shout a year in advance on "David whatever his name"

I was surprised that nobody thought to use Martin Rogan as an example in this debate. Surely there could be an arguement that if he had taken up boxing earlier he may have been a proper contender? If he could get to that level with no athletic history it's not completely ridiculous that a professional athlete could get to a similar level if not a bit higher?