Building under Electricity Lines.

loremolis

The attached document is an extract from the guidance notes sent to the members of the Oireachtas by the then Department of Industry and Commerce in May 1934 in relation to Electricity Supply legislation concerning the erection of buildings under electricity lines.

Item No. 9 of the document deals with building under electricity lines.

The following links lead to the sections of the 1934 Electricity Supply No. 2 Act which were subsequently enacted to deal with building under electricity lines (of all types and voltages).

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1934/en/act/pub/0038/sec0019.html#sec19
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1934/en/act/pub/0038/sec0020.html#sec20

In a nutshell, if the ESB want to prevent landowners from building under electricity lines then the Minister must grant a Building Prohibition Order. If the ESB are not granted a Building Prohibition Order by the Minister then they must remove the lines.

Anyone any experience of this?

muffler

There's been a hell of a lot of new acts and amendments since 1934. How sure are you that the part of the Act you quoted is the most up to date?

loremolis

muffler wrote: »

There's been a hell of a lot of new acts and amendments since 1934. How sure are you that the part of the Act you quoted is the most up to date?

I am 100% positive that the parts of the Act I mentioned have not been revoked or amended.

1. I've checked all of the subsequent amendments to the Electricity Supply acts. Most of the subsequent amendments to the original Electricity Act of 1927 relate to ESB fiscal and pension matters. A few, like the 1945 and 1985 amendments make notable changes i.e. the definition of an electricity line (1945) or the right to compensation for the placement of a line on private lands (1985). There have been no alterations, additions or amendments to Sections 19 or 20 of the 1934 Act.

2. In 2000 the European Communities (Internal Market in Electricity) Regulations 2000, S.I. 445/2000 were introduced.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/si/0445.html#partiii-sec8

Section 8(2)(c) of those regulations specifically transferred Sections 19 & 20 of the 1934 Electricity Supply Act to Eirgrid where those functions are required by Eirgrid.

If the 1934 legislation had been revoked since it was originally enacted then it would not have been specifically mentioned in S.I 445/2000.

If you still have a doubt then why not ask the ESB and/or Eirgrid if Sections 19 & 20 of the 1934 Electricity Supply Amendment No. 2 Act are still in force.

If I've satisfied your query then what do you think of the ESB's best kept secret?

muffler

Personally I have never come across this situation but I am curious as to why there is a thread about it.

Is this something that you have encountered yourself?

DOCARCH

muffler wrote: »

Personally I have never come across this situation but I am curious as to why there is a thread about it.

Is this something that you have encountered yourself?

Have to agree with Muffler - not sure what this thread is about?


The only time I have had experience of this was is in Wexford.

There were overhead ESB lines (serving a number of houses to the rear of my clients site) within approx. 10 metres of an existing house (crossing my clients site). They wanted to build an extension to the side of the existing house which would mean building within 4 metres of the existing overhead line. I drew up plans. The client approached ESB with the plans, they indicated they had no objection to the proposal and also agreed to relocate their overhead lines (at no cost to my client). They gave client letter confirming same. Letter from ESB went in with planning the application. Planning granted. ESB lines moved. Extension built. No problem!

loremolis

DOCARCH wrote: »

Have to agree with Muffler - not sure what this thread is about?


The only time I have had experience of this was is in Wexford.

There were overhead ESB lines (serving a number of houses to the rear of my clients site) within approx. 10 metres of an existing house (crossing my clients site). They wanted to build an extension to the side of the existing house which would mean building within 4 metres of the existing overhead line. I drew up plans. The client approached ESB with the plans, they indicated they had no objection to the proposal and also agreed to relocate their overhead lines (at no cost to my client). They gave client letter confirming same. Letter from ESB went in with planning the application. Planning granted. ESB lines moved. Extension built. No problem!

I appreciate that I may not be presenting this too clearly. Apologies.

I will try to explain what I'm getting at with this thread.

From the example you have given, the ESB had no difficulty in moving the lines to accomodate your clients extension because your client informed them that they intended to build within a certain distance of the line and the ESB then chose to move the line to accomodate the development.

In other words, without being aware that they were acting under a statutory requirement to do so, your client informed the ESB of their intention to build within 23 metres of the line in accordance with the requirement of Section 20 of the 1934 Electricity Supply Act.

Rather than seek a Building Prohibition Order from the Minister under Section 19 of the Act, the ESB wisely chose to alter/remove the line to allow the development to proceed.

In the example you have given, the line was low voltage on single timber poles. Because they are simple to move, the ESB will do so.

What happens if someone wants to build under High Voltage electricity lines? Given that the Electricity Supply Acts apply equally to all type and voltages of electricity lines, shouldn't the same principles apply?

If a landowner informs the ESB of their intention to erect a building under High Voltage lines in accordance with the requirement of Section 20, isn't the only option for the ESB to remove or divert the line or seek a Building Prohibition Order from the Minister?

Given that High Voltage lines are expensive and difficult to remove or divert, the most sensible option for the ESB is to seek a Building Prohibition Order.

So, my point is, my reading of the 1934 Act is that unless the Minister grants a Building Prohibition Order, the ESB must remove or divert the line to allow the development to proceed.

The reason I've put it in a thread is to see if anyone here has any experience of this or if I'm correct.

DOCARCH

I think you have almost answered your own question?

If somebody did want to build near or under a high voltage line, then I would suspect the ESB would seek a Building Prohibition Order from the Minister due to the fact that it would be very expensive to relocate the line and the line may be of national or regional importance.

You are probably correct in your thesis that if a Building Prohibition Order was not issued by the Minister, then yes, probably the ESB would be obliged to relocate their high voltage line. In reality I cannot envisage this happening (i.e. a situation where a Building Prohibition Order would not be issued).

If the high voltage line was put up in the last 20 years or so, inevitbaly the ESB probably went through the hoops in terms of planning, so it is unlikely they would entertain moving any of these lines lightly.

ECO_Mental

Whats your angle to all this?

In the first place I cant see any planning authority granting permission to build under a High Voltage Line so the whole issue of getting a minister to issue a Prohibition order is irrelevant. Once a planning application comes into a county council they send this application out to the statutory bodies and who ever really for comments and once they see its any where near a High Voltage line then thats it.

Its two different ball games as well in moving a low voltage pole to moving a high voltage pole or tower. With the hassle the ESB and Eirgrid are getting at the moment from NIMBY's there is no way they are going to move a HV line. THey would have to go through planning all over again.

Anyway what do YOU want to build under a HV line??

loremolis

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Whats your angle to all this?

In the first place I cant see any planning authority granting permission to build under a High Voltage Line so the whole issue of getting a minister to issue a Prohibition order is irrelevant.

I think you are overlooking the basic principles in making that statement.

The legal relationship between the landowner and the ESB is governed by the relevant Electricity Supply Acts and Land Law generally.

The ESB erect High Voltage lines under a wayleave (not an easement)without acquiring any legal interest in the land. The owner of the land retains full ownership after the line is erected.

If the ESB wished to acquire an easement thereby sterilising an area of land under an electricity line they are free to do so at any time, even after the line is erected, but they must specify the rights being acquired and compensate the landowner for the loss of those rights.

Where a landowner wishes to make a planning application which proposes buildings under an electricity line, as the owner of the land they are free to do so. There is nothing in the Planning Acts or Electricity Acts which prevents this or specifies that undefined building restrictions apply to development under electricity lines.

When assessing a planning application, the planning authority cannot have any regard to matters between the landowner and the ESB, including the position of buildings with respect to the line. That is a matter between the ESB and the landowner and it is none of the planning authority's business.

As you are possibly aware, there is a section in the Planning Acts which states something along the lines that the grant of planning permission does not confer the right to build. That is the case here. Following receipt of planning permission, if the development and electricity line are in conflict, the ESB removes or diverts the line or the Minister steps in to issue a Building Prohibition Order.

Once a planning application comes into a county council they send this application out to the statutory bodies and who ever really for comments and once they see its any where near a High Voltage line then thats it.

Which statutory bodies? Statutory bodies are only responsible for what is defined in their enabling statute.

In this instance the ONLY statutory power to prohibit building under electricity lines lies with the Minister.

The HSA are only concerned with Health and Safety in the workplace. At that point the planning permission has been granted.

Its two different ball games as well in moving a low voltage pole to moving a high voltage pole or tower. With the hassle the ESB and Eirgrid are getting at the moment from NIMBY's there is no way they are going to move a HV line. THey would have to go through planning all over again.

If they don't want to move the line then they can compensate the landowner for their loss of development rights.

Anyway what do YOU want to build under a HV line??

muffler

muffler wrote: »

Is this something that you have encountered yourself?

mod hat on: I have to ask this again as it went unanswered.

Id also like to know what you hope to achieve with this thread.

loremolis

muffler wrote: »

Personally I have never come across this situation but I am curious as to why there is a thread about it.

Is this something that you have encountered yourself?

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore it, I thought I had answered the question in a subsequent post.

The reason I've put it in a thread is to see if anyone here has any experience of this or if I'm correct.

I'm simply looking for other points of view and opinions in an area that I'm interested in.

I didn't realise that I had to achieve anything by setting up a thread. I thought the exchange of information, points of view and opinions was a part of the forum.

I'll admit that this is a very unusual topic, but no more so than a discussion on Building Regulations or u values if you are not interested in them.

Where have I gone wrong?

muffler

Look, its a simple yes or no answer - "Is this something that you have encountered yourself"

From the forum charter which I strongly advise you to read

6.3 Whilst the planning process, including the legalities involved may be discussed in full, please note that seeking or imparting legal advice may result in a ban.

Now so far you have failed to answer a simple question so I have no idea if this is some form of crusade you are on. You are also making reference to legal situations and/or statutes which is contrary to the forum charter and indeed Boards.ie rules

When I or any of my co mods see this type of thread we like to know the reason behind it.

sydthebeat

personally i see this as just a red herring.

and application for development in the vicinity of power lines will be dealt with as part of the planning application... in my experience anyway.

there does not have to be legislation "specifies that undefined building restrictions apply" for a planner to deem development under power lines to be contrary to the proper development of an area.

the planning authority cannot have any regard to matters between the landowner and the ESB,

of course they can... they do, and always do...
they can refer the application to contact the ESB for their comments in respect to proposed development... they can also notify the ESB, as a semi-state body, of the application.
Also, its my understanding that ESB can appeal decisions made by LA's without having being part of the LA decision process.

loremolis

muffler wrote: »

Look, its a simple yes or no answer - "Is this something that you have encountered yourself"

From the forum charter which I strongly advise you to read

Now so far you have failed to answer a simple question so I have no idea if this is some form of crusade you are on. You are also making reference to legal situations and/or statutes which is contrary to the forum charter and indeed Boards.ie rules

When I or any of my co mods see this type of thread we like to know the reason behind it.

Yes I have encountered this myself.

I've read the forum charter as you suggested and I have not looked for or given any legal advice to anyone on this or any other topic.

All I've done here is give my own views which I believe are correct based on my own experience. The information, legislation or otherwise, I have posted here is available for anyone to read and give their views on like I have.

The reason behind this thread is to explore this subject with people who deal with and have experience with this sort of thing.

It's difficult to discuss subjects which are surrrounded in statute without making reference to that statute in support of the point being made.

If I've broken any of the Forum rules then I sincerely apologise.

loremolis

sydthebeat wrote: »

personally i see this as just a red herring.

and application for development in the vicinity of power lines will be dealt with as part of the planning application... in my experience anyway.

there does not have to be legislation "specifies that undefined building restrictions apply" for a planner to deem development under power lines to be contrary to the proper development of an area.

If a planner were to deem development under a power lines to be contrary to to the proper planning and sustainable development of an area, how would they know the correct distance from the power line it is OK to build? Do they guess a distance?

of course they can... they do, and always do...
they can refer the application to contact the ESB for their comments in respect to proposed development... they can also notify the ESB, as a semi-state body, of the application.
Also, its my understanding that ESB can appeal decisions made by LA's without having being part of the LA decision process.

By what means can a planning authority notify the ESB of a planning application?

A planning authority may suggest that the applicant contact the ESB, but they have no power to insist on this. For the purposes of a planning application the ESB is not a prescribed body. it is simply a third party and like any other third party, has the right to make a written submission to the application. Their approval of the proposed development is neither requested or required by the planning authority or the applicant.

The ESB is only a prescribed body requiring notification when a planning authority is preparing, making or varying a development plan in its area or for the preparation of regional planning guidelines.

I agree that the ESB can appeal a decision of the planning authority, but I don't agree that they can do so without having made a submission to the LA.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that this is a red herring.

sinnerboy

loremolis wrote:

I have not looked for or given any legal advice to anyone on this or any other topic.

Really ?

loremolis wrote:

In a nutshell, if the ESB want to prevent landowners from building under electricity lines then the Minister must grant a Building Prohibition Order. If the ESB are not granted a Building Prohibition Order by the Minister then they must remove the lines.

Your interpretation of legislation

loremolis wrote:

what do you think of the ESB's best kept secret?

You invite others to the reach the same interpretation

loremolis wrote:

What happens if someone wants to build under High Voltage electricity lines? Given that the Electricity Supply Acts apply equally to all type and voltages of electricity lines, shouldn't the same principles apply?

Demanding a legal opinion.

loremolis wrote:

I am 100% positive that the parts of the Act I mentioned have not been revoked or amended.

And what qualifies you to state that. Rhetorical question .

loremolis wrote:

What happens if someone wants to build under High Voltage electricity lines? Given that the Electricity Supply Acts apply equally to all type and voltages of electricity lines, shouldn't the same principles apply?

Requires interpretation of the law pertaining to a particular case or cases .

loremolis wrote:

The information, legislation or otherwise, I have posted here is available for anyone to read and give their views on like I have.

No it isn't . It's inviting legal advice . A definition - in case it is not clear to you

legal advice: involves applying or interpreting the law to your individual problems and recommending the best way for you to handle your case.

source

MOD ADVICE . DO NOT POST ON THIS TOPIC AGAIN HERE . YOU WILL BE BANNED IF YOU DO

THREAD LOCKED