Is Jesus the single most important historical figure?

--amadeus--

I was at a family 1st Communion earlier in the year (it's easier to go along sometimes, that's an argument for another time ) and the priest in his sermon referred to Jesus as the single most important figure in human history.

My natural instinct was to scoff but I couldn't think of any other contenders. Actual historical facts about him are few and far between but if you assume he was a real person then his influence is enormous. 2000 years after his death he still has millions of adherents and great power - financial, secular, political - is wielded in his name. Millions (perhaps tens of millions) have died in wars started on his behalf and people are still being killed in his name; early reports from Oslo indicate that a Christian fundamentalist is to blame.

There are no end of totemic historical figures - Alexander The Great, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Henry VIII, Charlemagne from antiquity who's actions shaped the world we live in but none have a direct influence today. Likewise it is hard to imagine that the large historical figures of recent history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) will still be influential in hundreds of years, let alone thousands.

You could argue that Mohammed is equally influential and he is certainly the only credible rival I could come up with. So can anyone think of a secular figure who has had a similar historical impact? Do you think that the current wave of secularisation is the beginning of the end of this religious influence on history?

[wasn't sure if here of History was the best spot for this, I was hoping for an Atheist POV on this but please move if better suited elsewhere!]

strobe

Skep had a thread along the same lines here before if you are interested.

I think he's well up there in anyway.

bpb101

in my opion jesus is the most important figure in world histroy
if jesus wasnt born and died on the cross ,then most people would be jews today...
and hilter couldn't have killed all the jews.

he plays a huge part in our lives, wheather you Christian, Muslim , Hindu or atheistic
when you walk there the street and sneeze , the most common responce is bless you , or god bless you.

when somethings big happens you often hear Oh my god.

and our life would be compleatly different without god

also , some people who have found god (jesus ) might not be as kind

but even down to our own nation , we would still be under the brithish empire but because we were persecuted because we catholic we fought for our freedom to show we were different and belived in different ideas/and beliefs

strobe

bpb101 wrote: »

in my opion jesus is the most important figure in world histroy

As above I'd probably agree. Definitely top 5 in anyway.

if jesus wasnt born and died on the cross ,then most people would be jews today...

... ... Ok, have to ask. What on Earth makes you think that?

and hilter couldn't have killed all the jews.

Hitler didn't kill all the Jews.

he plays a huge part in our lives, wheather you Christian, Muslim , Hindu or atheistic

I think you will find that is not true, it could be said that the influence of Jesus on the world touches on many peoples lives. But you are going to have to expand a bit to convince me that Jesus plays any part whatsoever in the lives of your average Iranian 16 year old girl.

and our life would be compleatly different without god

also , some people who have found god (jesus ) might not be as kind

Indeed...

but even down to our own nation , we would still be under the brithish empire but because we were persecuted because we catholic we fought for our freedom to show we were different and belived in different ideas/and beliefs

I never thought I would quote this fella but... "… this is not Rome. Nor is it industrial-school or Magdalene Ireland, where the swish of a soutane smothered conscience and humanity and the swing of a thurible ruled the Irish-Catholic world. This is the ‘Republic’ of Ireland 2011, a Republic of laws, of rights and responsibilities, of proper civic order where the delinquency and arrogance of a particular version of a particular kind of ‘morality’ will no longer be tolerated or ignored."

Shenshen

Nothing Jesus (if he existed) has said and done is anywhere near as influential and important than the person who invented the alphabet.

bpb101

1st most people who joined Christianity were jewsish (im talking around the time of jesus)

2nd hilter tryed to kill all the jews , that was part of his plan
but he wanted to wait untill he got world domataion

3rd i ment our lives , irish people

4th he dosent help my case
... he a complete nutter , he crazy and (btw he innocent till proven guilty :L)
he wont get sent to jail he be put to a mental hospital , because he crazy

Turtwig

Nope he most certainly was not. I'd wager that the Buddha was even more important than Jesus. Then I'd put them all below these guys.

Socrates.
Plato.
Euclid.

Jesus wouldn't even make my top ten.

eoin5

Jesus hasnt been important really, people have just used the idea of Jesus to manipulate and decieve. Alexander the Great, there was someone important.

Zillah

bpb101 wrote: »

1st most people who joined Christianity were jewsish (im talking around the time of jesus)

Therefore everyone becomes Jewish? Like...is there some sort of insane logic going on inside your head or did you just not think it out very much?

Tonyandthewhale

To be fair Jesus didn't make a huge influence on world history in his own life-time. Christianity at the time of Jesus Christ (or whatever his real second name was) was only a small splinter group of Judaism which in turn wasn't exactly a major global religion. Christianity has been hugely influencial on world history but people like Peter, the first pope were probably more instrumental in making christianity what it is today.

Zillah

As for the actual topic:

I think the question is a little futile. "Important" has a slight value-judgement quality to it. We could say "influential", I suppose, but again, the "what if" game is quite pointless. Sure if Jesus was never born then society would be drastically different. But then again, if a certain beetle didn't get stepped on by a certain dinosaur in 80,000,000 BC then we might have gotten to Mars a thousand years ago.

Jesus had a big impact, sure, but trying to say who was the most influential or important person is entirely missing the point. The great great great grandfather of Augustus Caesar is no less important than his mother in the chain of events leading to his birth.

Evade

If he never existed (or more accurately wasn't deified a few hundred years after his death and was just one of many Jewish Prophets) is impossible to answer.

What would replace Christianity as the dominant religion in the West? Would Rome have adopted Judaism as it's official religion and continued along the same path as Christianity or would they have continued with the Roman Pantheon or something new entirely. Would any of the above have had the same dogmatic we're right you're wrong attitude of Christianity?

Zillah

Evade wrote: »

Would Rome have adopted Judaism as it's official religion

Absolutely not. Judaism is one of the few religions with no mandate to proselytise.

recedite

I thought Jesus was a Jew. Did he ever say anything about wanting to leave that religion?

Logical Fallacy

Not really....i would place Johannes Gutenberg far higher up the list than Jesus.

Penn

Does Jesus count as historical if there's no proof he actually existed?

How about:
Da Vinci
Copernicus
Galileo
Socrates
Plato
Julius Caeser
Martin Luther King Jr.

CerebralCortex

Growing up I found this guy far more influential than Jesus.



Oh Hannibal, what haven't you thought me!!??

axer

Its a stupid statement much like the statement "Ariel washing powder is the best washing powder for washing clothes". This is a pointless debate tbh. So much has to be defined first before the debate can even begin e.g. how do you define "Important"? How do you quantify "Important"?

CerebralCortex

axer wrote: »

Its a stupid statement much like the statement "Ariel washing powder is the best washing powder for washing clothes". This is a pointless debate tbh. So much has to be defined first before the debate can even begin e.g. how do you define "Important"? How do you quantify "Important"?

Agreed, the appearance of certain dictators mid 20th century who shall remain nameless left indelible marks on history both in the sense of the tech developments they spurred on and the lifes they destroyed.

Dades

"Important" is a subjective word.

Influential is a much better one in this context. I'd say yes, he (or the concept of Jesus) is probably the most influential.

I hate to say it, but I think people claiming certain philosophers or scientists have been more influential on our world are trying desperately to avoid the idea of a religious figure being numero uno. In reality so many of peoples actions - both great and terrible - can be attributed to some sort of belief in his teachings - or those teachings which other people have attributed to the man (men?) Jesus.

goose2005

Not to mention that, arguably, Paul and Peter were the real founders of Christianity

biko

I would probably say Genghis Khan is the most important historical figure world wide.
Sure, we don't even know if the Nazarene really existed.

Turtwig

Dades wrote: »

"Important" is a subjective word.

Influential is a much better one in this context. I'd say yes, he (or the concept of Jesus) is probably the most influential.

I hate to say it, but I think people claiming certain philosophers or scientists have been more influential on our world are trying desperately to avoid the idea of a religious figure being numero uno. In reality so many of peoples actions - both great and terrible - can be attributed to some sort of belief in his teachings - or those teachings which other people have attributed to the man (men?) Jesus.

But, you see here is the thing Dades, what part did Jesus actually play in any of this? He never wrote anything down. He's just like an ancient God the Greeks, Romans or Mayans had. He preached absolutely nothing new, the Greek philosophers before him set the frameworks for society as we know it. People merely used Jesus as an "authoritative" figure to argue their beliefs. Jesus didn't change society, people did and they just used Jesus as a vessel the same way they used other Gods as vessels.

Dades

^^ I get that. He might have been a complete puppet, or just a concept.

But intentionally or not, the influence of the teachings attributed to him and the religion based around him is still everywhere today and has been a driving force for good and bad throughout history.

If we were to narrow down the options to people who were proven to have had existed and whose work was known to be their own - then that would be a different kettle of fish altogether.

Penn

Dades wrote: »

If we were to narrow down the options to people who were proven to have had existed and whose work was known to be their own - then that would be a different kettle of fish altogether.

Well in that case, I agree Jesus would be right up towards the top. However, if you're allowing people who quite possibly didn't exist, then surely (excluding God and Satan) Eve would be the single most important figure.

Dades

You mean Adam, right? Eve was made from his rib, no?

Shreddingblood

Personally, the teachings of Steven Seagal have had more of an impact on my life. I'd like to nominate him as the most historically importsnt figure.

Sarky

Jesus, he's just this guy, you know..?

CerebralCortex

Shreddingblood wrote: »

Personally, the teachings of Steven Seagal have had more of an impact on my life. I'd like to nominate him as the most historically importsnt figure.

How to be a second rate overweight rapidly aging action star?

swampgas

I guess to a billion Chinese and a billion Indians (give or take a few million), there are historical figures far more significant than Jesus.

Shreddingblood

CerebralCortex wrote: »

How to be a second rate overweight rapidly aging action star?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jji78uEW14

I think I just made you look like a fool my friend. The zombie christian doesn't have lines like that in the bible.

Delirium

Shreddingblood wrote: »

I think I just made you look like a fool my friend. The zombie christian doesn't have lines like that in the bible.

He got you there, CC. Seagal can only dream of being a second rate actor with lines like those :pac:

Undergod

swampgas wrote: »

I guess to a billion Chinese and a billion Indians (give or take a few million), there are historical figures far more significant than Jesus.

Perhaps in their own beliefs yeah, but some could argue that Europeans, and their Christian beliefs, have had a huge impact on the histories of these countries.

MungBean

Is there any actual evidence that this man existed ?

Shreddingblood

Skunkle wrote: »

Is there any actual evidence that this man existed ?

Yeah Seagal's the real deal.

wonderfulname

Jesus seems the most influential figure from a modern viewpoint, but that doesn't mean he is in real terms.

My vote for most genuinely influential goes to Aristotle, Plato and Socrates.

Take Aristotle alone, pioneered formal logic and zoology, the scientific method is indebted to him, as is the Christian scholastic tradition and Islamic philosophy, our politics, our methods of teaching, philosophy of course, and that's just what he got really right, imagine how advanced we'd be if everything the man said wasn't taken as gospel, he heavily influenced most of the sciences and the arts, many of his mistaken assertions weren't rectified until the 19th century.

He kicks Jesus ass, the only reason it isn't obvious is because a world without his input is beyond comprehension.

Then there's his student, Alexander the Great, guest star in such texts as the Bible and Quran, creator of one of the largest empires ever seen, he spread greek culture across that empire, the hellenistic period this inspired is to blame for both astrology and major advances in astronomy and maths, which brings up Archimedes, another ancient I'd go with being bigger than jesus, influence doesn't have to be blatantly obvious.

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

I guess to a billion Chinese and a billion Indians (give or take a few million), there are historical figures far more significant than Jesus.

Undergod wrote: »

Perhaps in their own beliefs yeah, but some could argue that Europeans, and their Christian beliefs, have had a huge impact on the histories of these countries.

The point I was trying to make is that from a global perspective, Jesus is unlikely to be the single most important person, given that a huge chunk of humanity has cultures and philosophies derived independently of the West.

You could also argue that much of Christianity down the ages didn't have much to do with Jesus, so any impact Christianity may have exerted in these countries has less to do with Jesus the historical figure and more to do with the agendas of churches and governments. Somehow I don't think Jesus would have approved of the crusades for example.

Undergod

swampgas wrote: »

The point I was trying to make is that from a global perspective, Jesus is unlikely to be the single most important person, given that a huge chunk of humanity has cultures and philosophies derived independently of the West.

You could also argue that much of Christianity down the ages didn't have much to do with Jesus, so any impact Christianity may have exerted in these countries has less to do with Jesus the historical figure and more to do with the agendas of churches and governments. Somehow I don't think Jesus would have approved of the crusades for example.

But the initial argument is probably based more on the impact of Christianity than the impact of Christ anyway; I think making this point would refute the argument in the West alone, without involving places without a Christian culture.

The point I was trying to make was that by the standards of the initial argument as I understood it, Christianity (and thus Christ) is still massively influential in China and India.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this point of view, just clarifying that I think this point still applies to the Eastern world if we consider the influence of Christian cultures to be part of Jesus's influence, and that if we don't consider that, then the argument does not even hold true in the Western world.

Tomk1

Shreddingblood wrote: »

Personally, the teachings of Steven Seagal have had more of an impact on my life. I'd like to nominate him as the most historically importsnt figure.

He does go a bit preachy at the end of some of his movies, anyway Steven Seagal is no "The Chuck Norris"

I would have to say the unknown R&D caveman who invented fire

Da Shins Kelly

Yes, he is.

mickoneill30

--amadeus-- wrote: »

There are no end of totemic historical figures - Alexander The Great, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Henry VIII, Charlemagne from antiquity who's actions shaped the world we live in but none have a direct influence today. Likewise it is hard to imagine that the large historical figures of recent history (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) will still be influential in hundreds of years, let alone thousands.

Alexander Fleming probably fits your criteria. He's shaped the world we live in and his work has a direct influence today and will continue to do so for a long time. Antibiotics save millions each year. If you add it all up (amount of people saved and their kids and grandkids) it probably adds up to more people influenced by him than by Jesus