What makes someone "Irish"?

mikedone

Following the reply to one of my posts in a different thread I want to pose the question "What makes you Irish? Is my Irish born, Irish educated, Irish accented, Irish speaking daughter Irish or does the fact that she has inherited her (Irish citizen) mother's North African melanin mean that she will be forever a foreigner or at best "half Irish"?

jonniebgood1

Closed pending possible move.

EDIT: I have moved this to humanities (hoping it is correct forum but not certain).

looksee

I suppose it is down to perception. She will no doubt see herself as both Irish and African, as, presumably, her mother sees herself. At the same time no doubt lots of people will automatically see her as African.

It is quite possible to be both legally Irish and emotionally something else, or depending on how she is raised, she might see herself just as Irish.

It is fairly certain that she will always have to cope with the element of society that is concerned about these kind of issues. The greatest favour you can do her is to raise her to be confident about herself without reference to her real or perceived nationality. Many children are bullied, if she is, don't make an issue of the fact that it could be her colour that is the focus. Help her to be strong and confident, rather than going into victim mode. It is not easy, but bullying never is.

Do not question her Irishness, even to yourself. She can respect her mother's culture and still be Irish. Enjoy and admire her colour, dress her to show it off, I have no doubt she is beautiful.

She and her mother will always be 'blow ins' - but so are a lot of people. It really doesn't matter. Just get on with your life, be positive and don't be concerned about other people's perceptions. Being Irish is just a legality, it is more important that she is herself.

R.Dub.Fusilier

mikedone wrote: »

Following the reply to one of my posts in a different thread I want to pose the question "What makes you Irish? Is my Irish born, Irish educated, Irish accented, Irish speaking daughter Irish or does the fact that she has inherited her (Irish citizen) mother's North African melanin mean that she will be forever a foreigner or at best "half Irish"?

this seems like a loaded question to me that is going to have posters being accused of being racists and nazis and all that goes along with it. did you not get the answer you wanted in the other thread or do you just want to stir it up a bit?

Elle Collins

OP, when I see a half Irish/half African child (with their parents) my mind translates that I'm looking at a half Irish/half African child. What's the big deal?

This certainly seems to be an issue for you. I'd just mind if I were you that it wouldn't rub off on your daughter.

southsiderosie

mikedone wrote: »

Following the reply to one of my posts in a different thread I want to pose the question "What makes you Irish? Is my Irish born, Irish educated, Irish accented, Irish speaking daughter Irish or does the fact that she has inherited her (Irish citizen) mother's North African melanin mean that she will be forever a foreigner or at best "half Irish"?

It seems like there are a lot of Irish people whose 'Irishness' is constantly questioned because physically they do not fit the stereotype (i.e. they have olive skin, dark eyes, etc instead of light eyes and fair skin). I have a few Irish (and English) friends who have a parent or grandparent from the Mediterranean, and they are constantly asked 'but where are you really from'?

Personally I tend to go by accents and how people self-identify. So if someone has an Irish accent and says they are from Ireland, I take it at face value even if they don't 'look' stereotypically Irish. If they want to divulge that they have Italian/Algerian/Nigerian heritage or whatever, I leave it up to them, but I don't press the issue. I think it's the 'but where are you really from' more than the 'where are you from' that starts to grate on people, or can seem like a kind of negative question depending on the context.

Actually there's a very interesting book with that very title written buy a half-Irish half African guy who grew up on the Falls Road in Belfast during the 60s and 70s - he was a Republican activist with a strong Belfast accent but was black, and so he was constantly asked 'where are you really from'?

pickarooney

Personally I find the phrasing of your question insulting. "At best, half-Irish" as though being half-Irish, half-North African is not as good? Is melanin really the extent of the influence your child's mother's culture has on her?

Your daughter has heritage from both countries and should be allowed to identify as both, as neither, as half and half or whatever she wants.

Delancey

A very good question and one that I have been thinking about for some time.

My parents are Irish and I have lived most of my life in Ireland , I consider myself Irish and so would ( I think ) the vast majority of people who met me .
But I cannot speak a word of the Irish language ( which I despise ) , I have never played or even watched Gaelic Football or Hurling ( which I dislike almost as much as the language ). I have not got a clue of the words to the National Anthem. I rarely watch RTE but prefer BBC.
To a large extent I feel completely alienated from the more common Irish cultural experience yet I would call myself Irish.

I know people with London accents who speak Irish , love GAA games and would smack anyone who dared to suggest they were anything other than 100% Irish.

Fact is I don't have a clue as to what makes someone Irish , I do know that it is more than skin colour or accent though.

charlemont

Its up to the person how they feel. I signed my friend/neighbours Irish citizenship application form today, I know him as my neighbour so I don't really think of him as being foreign. He is just my neighbour to me regardless of his colour.

Sardonicat

I have an Englsih(y) accent and am considered by some to not be Irish :rolleyes:.

As far as I've always been concerned that is what I am, though, even when I lived in England as a child.

Although, I've a sneaky feeling if it was an Aussie/American accent my "true Irsihness" would be questioned less.

I think, OP, that what is considered Irish will change as your daughter's generation grows up. I'm not sure anyone really knows what being Irish means at the moment as a lot of what defined us is gone, some of em saddly so and some of them for the best. We are very much a nation in transition at present.

I've been thinking about this for some time. I'm currently living in China where the first question thats asked is "where are you from?" Now, its easy enough to say I'm from Ireland, but then the common refrences will follow as to what other people consider Irish people to be like. Most of my foreign friends consider me to the most un-Irish person they've met. I don't get drunk very often, don't hate the English, can't really stand sports, am a terrible dancer (Irish dancing), my gaelige has pretty much died and know very few of the Irish songs. So what is being irish? That's what other nationalities seemt to consider being Irish to be.. long with the red hair, and that we wear dresses.

But then I talked with some irish friends and asked the same question. What is it to be Irish? And frankly, the only thing we can agree on is being born there and holding an Irish passport.

Ireland is now a country with people from every country. 40 years ago there were few people not from the UK or Ireland living there, but now...? So different even from when I was a kid and saw my first black person.

If your daughter wants to be Irish, I say "game on". Her choice. And frankly, I would accept her as such the moment she spoke the words. We all judge people on their appearance before conversation follows, and usually we make mistakes until we're informed. This is no different. I tend to follow what I hear someone say rather than basing on what I just see.

slowburner

A friend that I grew up with now lives an affluent life in the middle east. Prior to this, he headed up operations for a very large firm in other parts of the world. I suppose he hasn't worked/lived in Ireland for the past 25 or 30 years.
Recently he was 'home' and we were doing a bit of catching up. During the conversation he said that he doesn't really consider himself Irish anymore, even though he was born and bred here: his wife and children consider themselves Irish.

When he said this, I felt that somehow it was a form of betrayal or at the very least, ingratitude. When I thought about it afterwards, I found myself wondering - can you opt out of being Irish even though you hold an Irish passport and that is where you come from?
Can you be not Irish or African or Dutch or Chinese - not anything?
Can you be international?

I like being Irish. I feel Irish. I am proud of my Irish heritage. And I have never been ashamed to be Irish (apart from when my interests were represented by the preceding government).
As to 'what makes someone Irish?' - haven't a clue, except to say that stay here long enough, and you will become Irish.

looksee

slowburner wrote: »

A friend that I grew up with now lives an affluent life in the middle east. Prior to this, he headed up operations for a very large firm in other parts of the world. I suppose he hasn't worked/lived in Ireland for the past 25 or 30 years.
Recently he was 'home' and we were doing a bit of catching up. During the conversation he said that he doesn't really consider himself Irish anymore, even though he was born and bred here: his wife and children consider themselves Irish.

When he said this, I felt that somehow it was a form of betrayal or at the very least, ingratitude. When I thought about it afterwards, I found myself wondering - can you opt out of being Irish even though you hold an Irish passport and that is where you come from?
Can you be not Irish or African or Dutch or Chinese - not anything?
Can you be international?

I like being Irish. I feel Irish. I am proud of my Irish heritage. And I have never been ashamed to be Irish (apart from when my interests were represented by the preceding government).
As to 'what makes someone Irish?' - haven't a clue, except to say that stay here long enough, and you will become Irish.

Thats true, look at the Vikings, they are pretty well assimilated by now.

slowburner

looksee wrote: »

Thats true, look at the Vikings, they are pretty well assimilated by now.

and a few more.

slowburner

slowburner wrote: »

When he said this, I felt that somehow it was a form of betrayal or at the very least, ingratitude.

Towards whom? I've spoken to my parents many times about my living abroad.. and the simple fact that I don't like living in Ireland. They understand, and frankly spend a fair amount of the year themselves in France. They only come back to Ireland for my sister and her children, and to, well, pay the bills. Are they betraying someone? After all the years they lived here, I can't see how.

I can't quite understand this betrayal aspect..

When I thought about it afterwards, I found myself wondering - can you opt out of being Irish even though you hold an Irish passport and that is where you come from?
Can you be not Irish or African or Dutch or Chinese - not anything?
Can you be international?

You can be anything you want. I consider myself European. I hold a Irish passport but that doesn't define me. I do that myself. And as for other people, they will believe anything you tell them.

Hellm0

I grew up with a lad from Hong Kong who took Irish in school and spoke(may still speak) with a stronger Dublin accent than I do. In my eyes, he is Irish.

Monty Burnz

Elle Collins wrote: »

OP, when I see a half Irish/half African child (with their parents) my mind translates that I'm looking at a half Irish/half African child. What's the big deal?

The problem with this is that it means that 'Irish' becomes 'white' by definition. What about if his daughter has a child with another Irish born and raised person, one of whose parents is African? Is the third generation child, still half African and half 'white', only half Irish?

Personally, I think you're Irish if you live in Ireland and claim to be Irish, buying into our society. That's good enough for me.

But here's an extreme case: I know of an Indian family who moved to Ireland to work before their children were born. One child was born in Ireland and raised there until the age of 10 or so, and the other was raised in Ireland only until the age of 2 or so, at which point the family moved to continental Europe. Here's where it gets interesting: the boy identified himself as Irish and the family continued to holiday in Ireland every year so he could meet up with his friends. He studied Irish off his own bat to Leaving Cert level, and when he finished school, he headed back to Ireland for college. Is he Irish? Indian parents, educated in continental Europe, fluent in 3 languages not including Irish, and lived in Ireland for only a decade. But I wouldn't dare to tell him that he isn't Irish!

Not only that, but his sister, who lived in Ireland only for a couple of years as a baby is following the same course and also studies Irish in school. I wouldn't be surprised if she went to college in Ireland too.

caseyann

Lets see i know two people who were adopted into Irish families who are black.I see them as Irish.You daughter i would consider Irish if she considers herself Irish .If she considers herself Irish African or African Irish whichever way you want to place it.I would consider her that to.
She is Irish like Paul mc grath and thin Lizzy.
For the most the ones who are blow ins and just here to get money and free passport so they can use it to get to other countries as freely as Irish do.I dont consider them Irish,even if they have a piece of paper saying they are.
For the ones who come here and live here work here respect our country and make an effort to integrate and go the long haul to contribute and allow their children to become apart of Irish culture and love it.Then they are Irish.

Her skin colour doesnt matter,have a friend also whose niece and nephew both half Irish half African,and they wouldn't even consider themselves African at all.They dont know Africa family never goes there and culturally Irish.

maninasia

slowburner wrote: »

A friend that I grew up with now lives an affluent life in the middle east. Prior to this, he headed up operations for a very large firm in other parts of the world. I suppose he hasn't worked/lived in Ireland for the past 25 or 30 years.
Recently he was 'home' and we were doing a bit of catching up. During the conversation he said that he doesn't really consider himself Irish anymore, even though he was born and bred here: his wife and children consider themselves Irish.

When he said this, I felt that somehow it was a form of betrayal or at the very least, ingratitude. When I thought about it afterwards, I found myself wondering - can you opt out of being Irish even though you hold an Irish passport and that is where you come from?
Can you be not Irish or African or Dutch or Chinese - not anything?
Can you be international?

I like being Irish. I feel Irish. I am proud of my Irish heritage. And I have never been ashamed to be Irish (apart from when my interests were represented by the preceding government).
As to 'what makes someone Irish?' - haven't a clue, except to say that stay here long enough, and you will become Irish.

Anybody who has lived overseas for a long-time naturally begins to see the world in a different light. You see that we are all world citizens and political and national barriers are artificial constructs. Not only that your commitment is to your local family/workforce/people you live and work with, pay taxes with, celebrate with and suffer with through the good times and bad.
Your friend was simply expressing this in a forthright manner, he has little connection with Ireland where he has not lived most of his adult life. Were you around the corner to be his friend when he had problems? Do you even know what he has been doing and how he has been living? Did the Irish government give him the dole when he lost his job? Is he entitled to a pension?

Having lived overseas for quite a while myself, I still identify as Irish but I question a lot of the assumptions in the culture and also society's stance on many issues. This is simply because I have seen and experienced myself other ways of living and doing things.

One more thing, being Irish overseas is not really the help that many Irish imagine. Ireland is pretty much lumped in with the UK in most areas worldwide. Also we don't have any real support from the Irish government nor do we have a vote, in most countries there are no Irish cultural offices either (compared to the British/French/Dutch etc.). You are pretty much on your own. You very quickly realise that Ireland is a very small country and a pretty insignificant place in the grander scheme of things.

Finally nobody chooses where they are born, but you can choose where you want to live. Makes more sense doesn't it?

Focalbhach

southsiderosie wrote: »

Actually there's a very interesting book with that very title written buy a half-Irish half African guy who grew up on the Falls Road in Belfast during the 60s and 70s - he was a Republican activist with a strong Belfast accent but was black, and so he was constantly asked 'where are you really from'?

Tim Brannigan is his name, for anyone wanting to check out the book (Where Are You Really From?) - it's an interesting read.

Sand

Irish is a nationality, not a culture or even an ethinicity. Technically anyone who adheres to the requirements to gain Irish citizenship/nationality is Irish. The end.

Why this seems puzzling for the Irish is that previously Irishness was very much connected to a state approved Gaelic culture. As part of the nationalist revival at the turn of the 20th century it was decided that the Gaels were the only real Irishmen, and non-Gaels were essentially English/West Brits. Outsiders. Not Irish. There was a very strong emphasis on defining an Irish identity as different as possible to our English neighbours, to underline our actual political independance. Even today, you will see people defending the "Irish" language by claiming that it is part of "our" culture. Is it? Really? All our cultures? Even those Irish whose ancestors came across on a boat from England or Scotland to stamp out the Gaels? Is it part of their culture?

The odd thing was that most of the Gaelic nationalist revivalists were themselves Anglo-Irish. The contribution of the Anglo-Irish to the Irish identity was downplayed in favour of what is essentially an invented mad, heavily drinking, GAA playing, red haired, aran sweater wearing, gaelic speaking fantasy. The OPs daughter obviously wont fit in to that definition of Irishness but not to worry, she'll fit right in with the other 99% of Irish people who would struggle to match that defintition too. Other than that, she doesnt need anyones permission to define herself as she sees fit.

The Corinthian

mikedone wrote: »

Following the reply to one of my posts in a different thread I want to pose the question "What makes you Irish? Is my Irish born, Irish educated, Irish accented, Irish speaking daughter Irish or does the fact that she has inherited her (Irish citizen) mother's North African melanin mean that she will be forever a foreigner or at best "half Irish"?

My mother is Irish and my father is Italian. I was born in Italy and moved with my family to Ireland in the late seventies, at which time I had, at best, a basic understanding of English and was culturally almost completely Italian.

Growing up I largely identified as being Italian. In part this was because I looked slightly different; I had slightly sallow skin and Italian features in a society that incredibly homogeneous - people tend to forget that there were practically no foreigners in Ireland.

I certainly did encounter a certain about of xenophobia growing up. Most of it was down to ignorance from people who had very little understanding of the World (remember, back then if you went on holiday in France you were effectively a World traveller). And my slightly different looks and foreign name did set me apart from the pale, freckled 'Paddies', 'Cians' and 'Endas' around me. Better a half-breed than a half-wit, I thought.

But the main difference was that having a foreign parent and contact with the foreign side of my family, I had access to a different perspective to most. I was accustomed to things that made certain parts of Irish culture strange or alien - the propensity to eat ridiculously early; often at 5pm, while the earliest I could stomach my evening meal was 8pm. And naturally the food; the Irish ate crap - a limited range of tasteless boiled or fried meats and vegetables and a stable diet of frozen chips and burgers.

This meant that I developed a natural resistance towards a lot of the ethnic imprinting that takes place in Ireland. School history books that went out of their way to underline how evil the English were were obviously biased to me, even as a young child. Religion was another thing I had little time for and remember rejecting the attempt to enrol us as 'pioneers' in primary school. Alcohol was not a bad thing; I had been able to drink wine (albeit 95% water and 5% wine) at meals since I was seven.

Of course, being different had its advantages. In my early twenties it certainly gave me an advantage where it came to seducing women, also because I had been exposed to a culture where you actually seduce them, rather than get drunk and then might wake up next to one.

However, by my mid-twenties I had all but completely become Irish. Through lack of use, my Italian had suffered. And all but a small portion of my attitudes and behaviours had become Irish rather than Italian. Even those that remained were more often than not Italian stereotypes rather than true attitudes or behaviours.

So I 'returned' to Italy for a while as I felt I needed to rectify this. It was one of the best things I ever did on many levels. By immersing myself and avoiding any kind of English-speaking contact, my Italian returned (and was updated as by this time much of my vocabulary was out of date). Many of the rose-tinted views I had of Italy were thankfully shattered and I was finally able to look at both countries and cultures more objectively. Yet even there I did not quite fit in, as I had many Irish attitudes and behaviours that were alien to Italians and they had many attitudes and behaviours that were alien to me. It was then that I realised I was neither one or the other, but a hybrid of the two.

I returned to Ireland just as the Celtic Tiger was getting under-way. It was a shock to see black people in Ireland for me (not to see black people, there were plenty of Somali and Ethiopian immigrants in Italy, just to see them in Ireland). The biggest effect this had on me was that what xenophobia I had previously experienced vanished. An Italian was just another Western European - no big deal. Naturally, no longer being exotic, I'd also lost one of my advantages with the ladies.

I now live abroad again and flit between identifying myself as either Irish or Italian; it depends on my mood and whom I'm talking to, and in what language. Often I'll simply identify as European.

Having lived in Ireland most of my life my attitudes are probably more Irish than Italian, but a significant proportion of them are certainly Italian. I can pass as completely native in either culture, or not, if I so choose.

Not all of this will apply to your daughter mikedone. The colour of her skin will likely always set her apart in both her cultures. As will the differences and gaps in culture she will adopt from either side. She will never fully fit in in either. However, that she will grow up with two cultures, two ways of thinking, will give her a perspective that will allow her to see things that those limited to one cannot see, and that is an advantage that as she grows older will easily compensate for any of the disadvantages.

fontanalis

maninasia wrote: »

Anybody who has lived overseas for a long-time naturally begins to see the world in a different light. You see that we are all world citizens and political and national barriers are artificial constructs. Not only that your commitment is to your local family/workforce/people you live and work with, pay taxes with, celebrate with and suffer with through the good times and bad.
Your friend was simply expressing this in a forthright manner, he has little connection with Ireland where he has not lived most of his adult life. Were you around the corner to be his friend when he had problems? Do you even know what he has been doing and how he has been living? Did the Irish government give him the dole when he lost his job? Is he entitled to a pension?

Having lived overseas for quite a while myself, I still identify as Irish but I question a lot of the assumptions in the culture and also society's stance on many issues. This is simply because I have seen and experienced myself other ways of living and doing things.

One more thing, being Irish overseas is not really the help that many Irish imagine. Ireland is pretty much lumped in with the UK in most areas worldwide. Also we don't have any real support from the Irish government nor do we have a vote, in most countries there are no Irish cultural offices either (compared to the British/French/Dutch etc.). You are pretty much on your own. You very quickly realise that Ireland is a very small country and a pretty insignificant place in the grander scheme of things.

Finally nobody chooses where they are born, but you can choose where you want to live. Makes more sense doesn't it?

I'd disagree to an extent: in New York and Boston for example there are offices which will help irish people with immigration issues. You also have many grass roots organisations; GAA clubs, AOH, local irish centres etc
But you're right about being lumped in with the UK, let's face it we are a tiny insignificant island and no one really has any reason to know the ins and outs of Ireland. Do most irish people know what goes on in Denmark or Austria, or have any deep knowledge of those or similar sized countries to Ireland.

maninasia

In most countries there are no Irish cultural offices either (compared to the British/French/Dutch etc.).

This is still correct, the US and the UK is not most countries. The Irish government (and Irish companies) needs to get with the program and put more investment into links with the developing and emerging world.

Caulego

Deleted User wrote: »

Towards whom? I've spoken to my parents many times about my living abroad.. and the simple fact that I don't like living in Ireland. They understand, and frankly spend a fair amount of the year themselves in France. They only come back to Ireland for my sister and her children, and to, well, pay the bills. Are they betraying someone? After all the years they lived here, I can't see how.

I can't quite understand this betrayal aspect..

You can be anything you want. I consider myself European. I hold a Irish passport but that doesn't define me. I do that myself. And as for other people, they will believe anything you tell them.

I would think that the emotional impulse that is described above as 'betrayal' is due to the basic human need to feel part of a tribe/family/group. This instinct to live in groups is genetic, and we feel more secure when we feel we can identify with others of like mind. These bonding instincts are very strong, as we would not have survived without them, but on the other hand they can be used against our own self interest by those who influence us by shaping the way we see others who might prove 'different'.
Of course all individuals are different from others, but the emotional need to feel the same, though in some ways almost anonymous, within the herd or group, can cause our capacity to reason to be the first casualty when it comes to dealing with irrational though genetically triggered fears, as fear is our strongest emotion.
When we find out that someone is not the same as us, we can feel a deep sense of vulnerability, as our subconscious mind is always on the alert for signs of threat or danger, and has nothing to do with the higher faculties of reason or logic. In other words, we are predisposed to react first and then find out later.
Religions and other similar control systems are well aware of these predispositions, though we are not taught about them in school, or else the cat would be out of the bag, and the powerbase of the controllers would crumble, with the result that the veil of delusion that they have instilled into us since childhood would evaporate.
In the main, people who have the urge to travel and learn about the wider world beyond their local and limited horizons are more likely to be willing to face these base and reactionary behaviours, and make adjustment to their thinking, and can learn to look for what is common to all, which is the sign of the higher mind, rather than look for foolish and wilfully ignorant 'differences' that divide us from our fellow man, which are based on prejudices and blind beliefs. Preconceptions and unthinking prejudices can make us 'feel' better for the moment, but eventually cause us to lose the opportunity to cooperate with others of possibly like mind, simply because of conditioned and rote responses to merely imagined notions of threat or loss.

slowburner

Nicely said.

Snickers Man

To answer the OP:

Given the constraints of their situation, their own personal choice.


Some of us don't have a choice. We were born here, of Irish parents, grew up here, speak with the accent and can speak the same cupla focail (namely the Lords' Prayer, the National Anthem, the Ta athas an domhain orm.. speech and ask for permission to go to the leithreas)as anybody else.

But some people have a choice. Born abroad of Irish parents, or born here to parents of another race, religion or nationality. Then it's down to them which strand of their identity they most choose to identify with.

What makes Wayne Rooney English and Sean McStiofain (two guys with pretty similar circumstances of birth and background) Irish?

Their choice.

Caulego

Caulego wrote: »

I would think that the emotional impulse that is described above as 'betrayal' is due to the basic human need to feel part of a tribe/family/group. This instinct to live in groups is genetic, and we feel more secure when we feel we can identify with others of like mind. These bonding instincts are very strong, as we would not have survived without them, but on the other hand they can be used against our own self interest by those who influence us by shaping the way we see others who might prove 'different'.

The problem though that there are so many different "types" of Irish people. The stereotypes don't hold much water considering the changes in Irish culture over the last 30 years... so this genetic need (I must admit I wouldn't consider it genetic since I don't have it) to belong to a particular group is rather limited.

This betrayal emotion is simply people being selfish. Unless we appreciate the manner in which they live their lives then we're somehow betraying someone. The funny thing is that usually they point to the founders of the state or those who died to create the Republic, and yet those very people were light-years different from Just about every Irish person today. Society, and modern living has changed us completely.

Of course all individuals are different from others, but the emotional need to feel the same, though in some ways almost anonymous, within the herd or group, can cause our capacity to reason to be the first casualty when it comes to dealing with irrational though genetically triggered fears, as fear is our strongest emotion.

I don't buy it. Some people need to be part of a herd. Others don't. There is no real overriding need that we all must feel. It comes down to what we're comfortable with. I've always felt more comfortable away from the herd mentality, since I don't believe there's safety in numbers. Rather thats where the real threats remain.

When we find out that someone is not the same as us, we can feel a deep sense of vulnerability, as our subconscious mind is always on the alert for signs of threat or danger, and has nothing to do with the higher faculties of reason or logic. In other words, we are predisposed to react first and then find out later.

Thats rather sad though isn't it? That some people will react that irrationally. Although, TBH I think you're being rather braod in ascribing this to everyone or even a large section of Irish society. Perhaps those from 40 years ago, but Ireland has been forced to change, and the people along with it. For some they have resisted the changes, but most have changed without fully realising it.

Religions and other similar control systems are well aware of these predispositions, though we are not taught about them in school, or else the cat would be out of the bag, and the powerbase of the controllers would crumble, with the result that the veil of delusion that they have instilled into us since childhood would evaporate.

The cat has been out of the bag for quite some time now... for those who want to know.

In the main, people who have the urge to travel and learn about the wider world beyond their local and limited horizons are more likely to be willing to face these base and reactionary behaviours, and make adjustment to their thinking, and can learn to look for what is common to all, which is the sign of the higher mind, rather than look for foolish and wilfully ignorant 'differences' that divide us from our fellow man, which are based on prejudices and blind beliefs. Preconceptions and unthinking prejudices can make us 'feel' better for the moment, but eventually cause us to lose the opportunity to cooperate with others of possibly like mind, simply because of conditioned and rote responses to merely imagined notions of threat or loss.

Which amounts to a rather large portion of the Irish population including those that spend their younger years abroad, and then return when they're in their 30's/40's. I would guess that at least half the Irish people I know have lived at least 2 years abroad and returned. Another quarter have left, and not returned except for holidays. And the last quarter have never left beyond the holiday to spain or such.

I think the main problem is that we have always felt that ireland was isolated from the rest of the world, and would remain so. While we went out into the world, and traveled/lived in other countries, we always felt that Ireland would remain untouched by foreign influence. Thankfully, that has not been the case. Ireland is changing. Some good, some bad. But at least its not so cut off mentally anymore.

Oranage2

White people thinkin they know about mix race makes me lol!

For some reason theres a big fascination with white Irish people tellin non white Irish that they're Irish and in a way its kinda racist because telling a mixed race person they're Irish somehow suggests that the persons other race /colour is inferior. I know when my friends tell others that im Irish, i also tell whoever that im also whatever too, and its this constant need to be 'labeled' Irish that mixed race people then get identity issues.

But its not really a being Irish issue, in my opinion its a being white issue, white people thinks its important to be white. So op a passport makes you Irish but she isn't white, and no amount of gaa or gaeigle will make somebody Irish if they don't have a passport.

Also op, unless you want your daughter to grow up with identity issues and a constant need to be white then i think you should introduce and embrace her other culture.

Oranage2

Oranage2 wrote: »

White people thinkin they know about mix race makes me lol!

For some reason theres a big fascination with white Irish people tellin non white Irish that they're Irish and in a way its kinda racist because telling a mixed race person they're Irish somehow suggests that the persons other race /colour is inferior. I know when my friends tell others that im Irish, i also tell whoever that im also whatever too, and its this constant need to be 'labeled' Irish that mixed race people then get identity issues.

But its not really a being Irish issue, in my opinion its a being white issue, white people thinks its important to be white. So op a passport makes you Irish but she isn't white, and no amount of gaa or gaeigle will make somebody Irish if they don't have a passport.

Also op, unless you want your daughter to grow up with identity issues and a constant need to be white then i think you should introduce and embrace her other culture.

I've lived quite a bit of time in Asia, and trust me, its the non-white people that think that being white is such a big deal. Most westerners I know couldn't give a damn about the color of a persons skin. The actions/inaction and personality of the non-white person is the issue. Alas so many people will seek a race reason before they even consider that their own behavior is at fault.

I think there is simply way to know if you are Irish ( this is a slightly humours reply )

Doesn't matter if you are of blended back ground or your were brought here as child.

Your have to answer this with your heart and not your head, if say your were of mixed Irish and south African background or your were born in south Africa and came here as child and you sat down and watched an Irish v south Africa rugby match who do instinctively cheer for, If its Ireland your are Irish if its south Africa your are south African.